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Thread: Is volume still a reliable indicator?

  1. #1

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    Default Is volume still a reliable indicator?

    NYSE Trading Falls to 7-Year Low as U.S. Volume Rises (Update1)
    By Jeff Kearns and Edgar Ortega
    May 23 (Bloomberg) -- Trading on the New York Stock Exchange fell 26 percent this quarter to the lowest since 2001 as alternative venues captured market share and the total volume of U.S. equities climbed.
    The shares changing hands each day on the 216-year-old exchange fell to an average 1.27 billion in the second quarter from 1.57 billion a year ago, according to NYSE data compiled by Bloomberg. Total trading rose 19 percent from a year ago to an average of 6.84 billion shares a day, as companies such as Bats Trading Inc. and Direct Edge ECN LLC won more of the business, Bloomberg data show.
    ``With hedge funds popping up and the ability to do things anonymously and cheaper and quicker, it definitely has an impact on the NYSE,'' said Michael Nasto, the senior trader at U.S. Global Investors Inc., which manages $6 billion in San Antonio. ``There are different avenues to get things done.''
    The NYSE's share of the total value traded slipped to 52 percent in the first three months from more than 70 percent in 1990, according to data from the World Federation of Exchanges. Analysts who depend on volume to help forecast the market's direction are losing one of their tools.
    Bats, the third-largest equity market, took business from the NYSE and Nasdaq Stock Market since it started in January 2006. Kansas City, Missouri-based Bats matched about 8.9 percent of total U.S. shares in April, up from 3.5 percent a year earlier.
    Trading, Volatility
    Direct Edge, which is based in Jersey City, New Jersey, has matched 4.1 percent of the shares traded this month, up from 1.2 percent a year ago, spokesman Rafi Reguer said.
    ``Technicians should be losing sleep over this,'' said Ralph Acampora, the 40-year Wall Street veteran who helped pioneer technical analysis. ``I can't be as trusting of my indicator, because I don't have all the data.''
    Trading in U.S. markets rose with stock volatility as investors took advantage of wider price swings. The NYSE's move to lift restrictions in March 2007 on automation increased volume by making it easier for brokerages that accommodate rapid-fire strategies.
    The new venues make it more difficult for technical analysts, who use exchange data to measure demand for stocks. A rally in the Standard & Poor's 500 Index without an increase in volume may fade, analysts say. Last year's rebound in the S&P 500 during September came with the lowest volume in four months. The benchmark peaked in Oct. 10, and fell 11 percent since then.
    `More Money'
    ``More volume means there's more money and support, more demand and momentum,'' said Acampora, the director of technical studies at the New York Institute of Finance. ``You need money to push stocks up.''
    Analysts can no longer count the NYSE or Nasdaq trades to gauge volume. Trading on the NYSE, a unit of NYSE Euronext, the world's largest owner of stock exchanges, fell to 1.05 billion shares on May 12, the lowest this year. The average over the last 30 days dropped to 1.26 billion shares, the fewest since October 2004. The 30-day average on the Nasdaq, owned by Nasdaq OMX Group Inc., declined to 834 million shares on March 14, the lowest since October 2004.
    U.S. stock trading on every exchange rose 24 percent in April from a year earlier to an average 6.8 billion shares a day. The average reached a record 8.92 billion in January.
    Bigger Picture
    ``At one point, you were able to focus on the volume on the NYSE or Nasdaq,'' said Ryan Primmer, the Stamford, Connecticut- based head of U.S. equities trading at UBS AG, the brokerage that handles the most shares in the U.S. ``Now it's only a slice of the picture. You need to look across all venues to understand the whole picture because no exchange is the dominant trader.''
    The NYSE has overhauled its technology to execute trades faster, cut transaction costs and introduced new ways for investors to handle block trades as way to lure back business.
    ``We are doing everything we can think of to try to reverse the trend,'' NYSE Euronext Chief Executive Officer Duncan Niederauer said May 15 at the annual shareholder meeting. ``The bottom line is that it's very easy to get started and compete with us. The barriers to entry for someone to get a license and compete with us are lower than they have ever been.''
    The S&P 500 rallied 9.5 percent since March 10, boosted by the Federal Reserve's support for the bailout of Bear Stearns Cos. and the steepest interest-rate cuts in two decades. Average NYSE volume during the advance was 1.41 billion shares a day, 9.5 percent below the same period last year. Total volume on all exchanges rose 32 percent to an average of 7.27 billion a day during the period compared with 2007.
    Dan Wantrobski, senior technical analyst for Fox-Pitt Kelton Cochran Caronia Waller in New York, says investors have reason to be concerned about the S&P 500's rally from March because total volume slipped since the index was falling in January.
    ``Volume was expanding on the way down and it's contracting on the way up,'' Wantrobski said.
    ...


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  3. #2

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    Default Re: Is volume still a reliable indicator?

    No I don't think volume is a reliable indicator today.

    Citi alone traded over 1 Billion shares today and that's not because of buy/sell interest. When stocks in major indexes drop to unbelievable lows, forget about it. It's a day traders haven out there.

    We won't see capitulation by use of conventional volume charts for a long time to come- Meaning until stocks regain some 20-40% of their value. If only there was a way to distinguish total dollar amount traded in a particular equity or index would 'volume' be a useful indicator. The big volume spikes we're seeing this week aren't as impressive as the volume spikes in January, July and September 2008.

    Like Carl says: Be wary of new buy signals.

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    Default Re: Is volume still a reliable indicator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullitt View Post
    No I don't think volume is a reliable indicator today.

    Citi alone traded over 1 Billion shares today and that's not because of buy/sell interest. When stocks in major indexes drop to unbelievable lows, forget about it. It's a day traders haven out there.

    We won't see capitulation by use of conventional volume charts for a long time to come- Meaning until stocks regain some 20-40% of their value. If only there was a way to distinguish total dollar amount traded in a particular equity or index would 'volume' be a useful indicator. The big volume spikes we're seeing this week aren't as impressive as the volume spikes in January, July and September 2008.

    Like Carl says: Be wary of new buy signals.
    And you get a point for this.... Trading volume is not indicative of market strength....Right now we could see a lot of volume but only becuase a "big money" drop from the hedge funders have the cash. But I don't think we can use it largely as an indicator.

    Great article L2R!
    THIS IS WHERE I WOULD PUT SOMETHING TO REPRESENT MY THINKING, BUT THEN THEY SHOW UP!
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    Default Re: Is volume still a reliable indicator?

    I still say no... kind of. Even IBD recommends looking for small cap stocks breaking out on volume in the Nasdaq because volume in the stalwarts is so untelling in today's markets.

    Technicians are taught that volume will reveal the intention of price. In other words, we're trained to believe that short-term buying and selling pressure predicts longer-term price direction, intensity and timing, at least when it's interpreted correctly. But there's a problem with volume in our modern diabolical markets -- it doesn't tell the truth anymore.

    A perfect example arises when a stock gets added to the S&P 500 index. The news generates enormous volume, as index funds scramble to purchase shares. But buying in-sync with the funds, a great strategy just five years ago, no longer guarantees a profit because the stock's rise instantly triggers a barrage of predatory algorithmic responses.
    http://www.thestreet.com/print/story/10556761.html

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  9. #5

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    Default Re: Is volume still a reliable indicator?

    "Breadth" and volume are more meaningful in our environment (indexes).

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    Default Re: Is volume still a reliable indicator?

    I'm thinking this whole 'rally on low volume' has been more propaganda by the big banks to keep the little investor away. Dark Pools are where the private money does their drinking, and they're sucking in more volume every month. This type of volume doesn't show up on an the NYSE either.

    Attachment 7531

    Dark pools handle about 9.2% of U.S. stock trading.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...291695632.html

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  13. #7

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    Default Re: Is volume still a reliable indicator?

    Hey, not to be braggadocio but I'm still up $762K in 39 weeks - so I don't care if the small investor ever shows up - keep them all in mutual fund bond portfolios. It's a classic mistake on their part seeking comfort rather than risk. Gains for those with courage.

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    Default Re: Is volume still a reliable indicator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullitt View Post
    I'm thinking this whole 'rally on low volume' has been more propaganda by the big banks to keep the little investor away. Dark Pools are where the private money does their drinking, and they're sucking in more volume every month. This type of volume doesn't show up on an the NYSE either.

    Attachment 7531

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...291695632.html
    Bullitt, have you been watching the volumes on insider trading? Sell baby sell. Haven't done the math to compare rally volume vs. insider sell volume, but I'm thinking its the little guys who keep jumping in while the big boyz are jumping out.

    http://www.finviz.com/insidertrading.ashx
    "life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards" - soren kierkegaard

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  17. #9

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    Default Re: Is volume still a reliable indicator?

    Here we go again. S&P up around 100 points in one month, yet average volume over the entire month has been declining.

    It makes me wonder how much trading is taking place in these smaller markets off the NYSE and Nasdaq. If I'm not mistaken, I remember reading once about the number small exchanges that popped up during the Internet Bubble days. Ultimately, those exchanges went defunct or got bought out. Archipelago is one of them.

    Some articles on the business:
    Dark Pools May Face Pruning
    LSE Sells 9% State in Turquoise


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