SATURN is D-E-A-D...DEAD

[Frixxxx]

Well, the news is out,

Let's see if someone wants this one, Penske didn't:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/GM-to-shut-down-Saturn-after-apf-433359878.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=

[James48843]

As I said before- Penske is not a manufacturer. They wouldn't know how to manufacture- they counted on finding someone who still owns an operating car company to make it for him, and it wasn't going to be GM.

http://www.tsptalk.com/mb/showthread.php?t=7177&highlight=saturn

Neither Ford nor Chrysler have a business model that takes into account the idea of building and selling cars to a competing middleman.

Sorry, but unless Penske, or someone else wants to invest the billions necessary to build the product- it's toast.

[James48843]

Competition in the segment=

Japan car makers- with a universal health care system that costs less than half of ours.

German car makers- with a universal health care system that costs less than half of ours.

Korean car makers- with universal health care that costs less than half of ours.


Are you getting the picture yet?

To be competitive internationally for manufacturing-of ANY kind- , we NEED universal health care, and a cost much lower than today.


http://www.galvestoneconomicreport.com/Pics/LifeExpectancy.jpg

[McDuck]

James, Would you please source the information that you post here?
Thanks


Competition in the segment=

Japan car makers- with a universal health care system that costs less than half of ours.

German car makers- with a universal health care system that costs less than half of ours.

Korean car makers- with universal health care that costs less than half of ours.


Are you getting the picture yet?

To be competitive internationally for manufacturing-of ANY kind- , we NEED universal health care, and a cost much lower than today.


http://www.galvestoneconomicreport.com/Pics/LifeExpectancy.jpg

[James48843]

James, Would you please source the information that you post here?
Thanks

University of California, at Santa Cruz:

First- this is the main page:
http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/

Here is a powerpoint on the inequalties of health care worldwide,:
http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/health/index.htm


And then here is a link to the specific topic of cost vs. results, including that graph:

http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/health/spend/spending3.htm

It's Dr. Paula Braverman, MD, Professor of Family Medicine at UC Santa Cruz.

That data is from 2002- it has done nothing but increase the spread between the U.S.'s runaway costs, and the more moderate increases in some other nations, especially Japan.

[McDuck]

University of California, at Santa Cruz

I visited there once. There were more hippies and drugs(dope) than you could shake a stick at.

[Boghie]

James,

What are the tax rates in Japan, UK, France, and Germany?

I would rather not compare first world free countries to Cuba - Cuba can enforce things the UK cannot. Cuba, like China, can also hide expenses through a lack of transparency or government fiat. Those first world countries have tons of folks looking for things that they can pick about – Cuba, not so much.

Now, if - by chance - you would pay more than $2,000 in taxes, fees, and other forms of government revenue in those other first world nations compared to that of the United States than you lose. I, for one, would rather invest the $2,000 in my TSP account or my Health IRA while my health is good to go. That $2K would be worth $2M about the time I needed it – and the annual contribution would reduce my tax mordida right now! Also, from what I understand, my net income is is a much higher than workers in Japan, UK, France, and Germany. If I elect to spend it on gold plated healthcare that is my choice – not a gubmint mandate.

Anyway, how many American autoworkers are uninsured?

My guess is zero (0).

So, the U.S. based autoworkers must be living into their 80’s eh…

That would be comparing apples to apples. Japanese autoworkers, German autoworkers, French autoworkers, and US autoworkers

Let me see stats on that.

Should be easy enough for a campus of the vaunted University of California!!!

Let us leave the glowing reviewers of Cuba to study the nationalized Toilet Paper import and distribution process!!! Or, the inexpensive food costs in North Korea!!!!!!

P.S. James, did you review the slides you referenced? Doesn't address your point...

[Boghie]

That $2K would be worth $2M about the time I needed it – and the annual contribution would reduce my tax mordida right now!

Make that $1,200,000 at the age of 65.

I do think that will buy a lot of health care.

Especially, if Medi[whatever] is still around, eh.

[phil]

Efficiency is efficiency. All of these countries spend less (in Cuba's case, much much less) and have higher life expectancies than we do.

So, I guess that we're saying is that we want to continue the same inefficiencies that we've always had. Sounds feudal.

[nnuut]

I guess we all have to live in shacks and drive 56 Chevys if we want good, cheap Health Care? Who came up with these numbers anyway? I think I'll stay here, Cuba may be nice, but they can have Castro and the rest of the Communist/Socialists CREEPS:nuts:.

[CountryBoy]

I guess we all have to live in shacks and drive 56 Chevys if we want good, cheap Health Care? Who came up with these numbers anyway? I think I'll stay here, Cuba may be nice, but they can have Castro and the rest of the Communist/Socialists CREEPS:nuts:.

But that's what the current administration and his Obamaton's want, a workers paradise. :nuts:

[Viva_La_Migra]

James,

What are the tax rates in Japan, UK, France, and Germany?

I would rather not compare first world free countries to Cuba - Cuba can enforce things the UK cannot. Cuba, like China, can also hide expenses through a lack of transparency or government fiat. Those first world countries have tons of folks looking for things that they can pick about – Cuba, not so much.

Now, if - by chance - you would pay more than $2,000 in taxes, fees, and other forms of government revenue in those other first world nations compared to that of the United States than you lose. I, for one, would rather invest the $2,000 in my TSP account or my Health IRA while my health is good to go. That $2K would be worth $2M about the time I needed it – and the annual contribution would reduce my tax mordida right now! Also, from what I understand, my net income is is a much higher than workers in Japan, UK, France, and Germany. If I elect to spend it on gold plated healthcare that is my choice – not a gubmint mandate.

Anyway, how many American autoworkers are uninsured?

My guess is zero (0).

So, the U.S. based autoworkers must be living into their 80’s eh…

That would be comparing apples to apples. Japanese autoworkers, German autoworkers, French autoworkers, and US autoworkers

Let me see stats on that.

Should be easy enough for a campus of the vaunted University of California!!!

Let us leave the glowing reviewers of Cuba to study the nationalized Toilet Paper import and distribution process!!! Or, the inexpensive food costs in North Korea!!!!!!

P.S. James, did you review the slides you referenced? Doesn't address your point...
This chart (http://www.heritage.org/research/taxes/images/wm1973_chart1.gif) is a bit dated, but it gives you an idea on taxes in Europe.

[Viva_La_Migra]

Competition in the segment=

Japan car makers- with a universal health care system that costs less than half of ours.

German car makers- with a universal health care system that costs less than half of ours.

Korean car makers- with universal health care that costs less than half of ours.


Are you getting the picture yet?

To be competitive internationally for manufacturing-of ANY kind- , we NEED universal health care, and a cost much lower than today.


http://www.galvestoneconomicreport.com/Pics/LifeExpectancy.jpg
Give it a rest already! Enough about universal healthcare! What are doctors paid in the universal healthcare countries? What are their malpractice insurance costs? How much civil litigation (frivolous and legit) must they deal with? How much red tape and clinical trials must their pharmaceutical companies go through to get their products to market?

While I can agree that we need to make some improvements to our healthcare system, I see no reason why I should give up my freedom in return for a healthcare system that is mediocre at best.

Remeber, a nation that's powerful enough to provide you with everything you need is powerful enough to take everything you have. Thanks for offering me taxpayer funded healthcare, but I think I'll keep the insurance I currently have.

[McDuck]

http://www.galvestoneconomicreport.com/Pics/LifeExpectancy.jpg

James, I think this article can explain the above chart.

September 30, 2009
US News & World Report : Could the Recession Be Good for Your Health? (http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/healthday/2009/09/29/could-the-recession-be-good-for-your-health.html)


But when the researchers looked at mortality rates among men, women and children from 1920 to 1940, they found death rates declined during years of falling economic activity and rose when times were better.
During the two decades spanning the 1920s and 1930s, overall life expectancy increased by 8.8 years. But it wasn't a steady rise, instead shooting up and falling back in a pattern that correlated with the rise and fall of economic activity
Between 1921 and 1926, the so-called "Roaring 20s" and a time of robust economic growth, life expectancy for non-white men fell by 8.1 years. Yet between 1929 and 1933, the years of steepest economic decline, their life expectancy grew a similar amount.
Likewise, non-white women lost 7.4 years of life expectancy during the Roaring 20s, but they gained 8.2 years of life expectancy during the Depression.

[OBGibby]

Efficiency is efficiency. All of these countries spend less (in Cuba's case, much much less) and have higher life expectancies than we do.

So, I guess that we're saying is that we want to continue the same inefficiencies that we've always had. Sounds feudal.


How much is spent on health care is not a very good indicator of how long one might live. Eating habits, work habits, genes, physical activity rates - those have much more influence on whether one lives to 70 or 100 years old. Okinawans and the Mediterranean cultures have long enjoyed long lives, but most likely because of their good climates, active lifestyles, good eating habits (lots of healthy fresh foods), etc. It has absolutely nothing to do with how much health care costs. Okinawans in particular are reportedly becoming much less healthy (when 'averaged' across the entire population demographic), even as health care has improved. Why you ask? Because the younger generations are eating less and less of the traditional Okinawan foods and more and more of processed and fast food.

It pains me deeply to see people extolling the virtues of a communist regime. One wonders how many people around the world could be living in freedom if it weren't for folks fostering love and admiration for tyrannical, socialist, and fascist regimes the world over. Useful idiots have proved their worth to those that dominate and enslave others time and again.

[phil]

I agree only with your last sentence.



How much is spent on health care is not a very good indicator of how long one might live. Eating habits, work habits, genes, physical activity rates - those have much more influence on whether one lives to 70 or 100 years old. Okinawans and the Mediterranean cultures have long enjoyed long lives, but most likely because of their good climates, active lifestyles, good eating habits (lots of healthy fresh foods), etc. It has absolutely nothing to do with how much health care costs. Okinawans in particular are reportedly becoming much less healthy (when 'averaged' across the entire population demographic), even as health care has improved. Why you ask? Because the younger generations are eating less and less of the traditional Okinawan foods and more and more of processed and fast food.

It pains me deeply to see people extolling the virtues of a communist regime. One wonders how many people around the world could be living in freedom if it weren't for folks fostering love and admiration for tyrannical, socialist, and fascist regimes the world over. Useful idiots have proved their worth to those that dominate and enslave others time and again.

[James48843]

James, I think this article can explain the above chart.

September 30, 2009
US News & World Report : Could the Recession Be Good for Your Health? (http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/healthday/2009/09/29/could-the-recession-be-good-for-your-health.html)


But when the researchers looked at mortality rates among men, women and children from 1920 to 1940, they found death rates declined during years of falling economic activity and rose when times were better.
During the two decades spanning the 1920s and 1930s, overall life expectancy increased by 8.8 years. But it wasn't a steady rise, instead shooting up and falling back in a pattern that correlated with the rise and fall of economic activity
Between 1921 and 1926, the so-called "Roaring 20s" and a time of robust economic growth, life expectancy for non-white men fell by 8.1 years. Yet between 1929 and 1933, the years of steepest economic decline, their life expectancy grew a similar amount.
Likewise, non-white women lost 7.4 years of life expectancy during the Roaring 20s, but they gained 8.2 years of life expectancy during the Depression.



Very interesting article, thanks McDuck. It IS interesting data.

However, I'm not sure what it means. There could be a lot of different takes on the data. Like, they say life expectancy fell between 1921 and 1926. Let's think about all the things going on in that time period. Yes, we had robust economic growth following the First World War. But we also had the flu pandemic of 1919, and then some massive industrial growth in that period up to 1928 or so, then the crash of 1929.

Anyway- thanks for the article. I'll mull it over for a bit and see what I can think of.

[Boghie]

We are all Feds, eh...
We all have good healthcare - good health insurance...

Has anyone performed a study to determine whether our life expectancy is higher than the general population?