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OBGibby
05-27-2009, 08:20 AM
Once Considered Unthinkable, U.S. Sales Tax Gets Fresh Look
Levy Viewed as Way to Reduce Deficits, Fund Health Reform
Lori Montgomery, Washington Post, May 27, 2009

With budget deficits soaring and President Obama pushing a trillion-dollar-plus expansion of health coverage, some Washington policymakers are taking a fresh look at a money-making idea long considered politically taboo: a national sales tax. Common around the world, including in Europe, such a tax -- called a value-added tax, or VAT -- has not been seriously considered in the United States. But advocates say few other options can generate the kind of money the nation will need to avert fiscal calamity.

At a White House conference earlier this year on the government's budget problems, a roomful of tax experts pleaded with Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner to consider a VAT. A recent flurry of books and papers on the subject is attracting genuine, if furtive, interest in Congress. And last month, after wrestling with the White House over the massive deficits projected under Obama's policies, the chairman of the Senate Budget Committee declared that a VAT should be part of the debate.

"There is a growing awareness of the need for fundamental tax reform," Sen. Kent Conrad (D-N.D.) said in an interview. "I think a VAT and a high-end income tax have got to be on the table."

A VAT is a tax on the transfer of goods and services that ultimately is borne by the consumer. Highly visible, it would increase the cost of just about everything, from a carton of eggs to a visit with a lawyer. It is also hugely regressive, falling heavily on the poor. But VAT advocates say those negatives could be offset by using the proceeds to pay for health care for every American -- a tangible benefit that would be highly valuable to low-income families.

Liberals dispute that notion. "You could pay for it regressively and have people at the bottom come out better off -- maybe. Or you could pay for it progressively and they'd come out a lot better off," said Bob McIntyre, director of the nonprofit Citizens for Tax Justice, which has a health financing plan that targets corporations and the rich.

A White House official said a VAT is "unlikely to be in the mix" as a means to pay for health-care reform. "While we do not want to rule any credible idea in or out as we discuss the way forward with Congress, the VAT tax, in particular, is popular with academics but highly controversial with policymakers," said Kenneth Baer, a spokesman for White House Budget Director Peter Orszag.

Still, Orszag has hired a prominent VAT advocate to advise him on health care: Ezekiel Emanuel, brother of White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel and author of the 2008 book "Health Care, Guaranteed." Meanwhile, former Federal Reserve chairman Paul A. Volcker, chairman of a task force Obama assigned to study the tax system, has expressed at least tentative support for a VAT.

"Everybody who understands our long-term budget problems understands we're going to need a new source of revenue, and a VAT is an obvious candidate," said Leonard Burman, co-director of the Tax Policy Center, a joint project of the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution, who testified on Capitol Hill this month about his own VAT plan. "It's common to the rest of the world, and we don't have it."

The surge of interest in a VAT is testament to the extraordinary depth of the nation's money troubles. While some conservatives have long argued that a consumption tax would provide a simpler and more efficient alternative to the byzantine U.S. income tax code, this time it's all about the money.

The federal budget deficit is projected to approach $1.3 trillion next year, the highest ever except for this year, when the deficit is forecast to exceed $1.8 trillion. The Treasury is borrowing 46 cents of every dollar it spends, largely from China and other foreign creditors, who are growing increasingly uneasy about the security of their investments. Unless Congress comes up with some serious cash, expanding the nation's health-care system will only add to the problem.

Obama wants to raise income taxes for high earners and impose new levies on business, but those moves would not generate enough cash to cover the cost of health care, much less balance the budget, and they have not been fully embraced by Congress. Obama's plan to tax greenhouse-gas emissions could raise trillions of dollars, but again, Congress is balking.

Key lawmakers are considering other ways to pay for health reform, including new taxes on sugary soda, alcohol and employer-provided health insurance. The last proposal could raise a lot of money -- nearly $1 trillion over the next five years, according to White House budget documents. But options on the table would raise a fraction of that sum. And while it might pay for health care, it would barely dent deficits projected to total nearly $4 trillion over the next five years and to grow rapidly in the future, as baby boomers draw on Social Security and Medicare.

Enter the VAT, one of the world's most popular taxes, in use in more than 130 countries. Among industrialized nations, rates range from 5 percent in Japan to 25 percent in Hungary and in parts of Scandinavia. A 21 percent VAT has permitted Ireland to attract investment by lowering its corporate tax rate.

The VAT has advantages: Because producers, wholesalers and retailers are each required to record their transactions and pay a portion of the VAT, the tax is hard to dodge. It punishes spending rather than savings, which the administration hopes to encourage. And the threat of a VAT could pull the country out of recession, some economists argue, by hurrying consumers to the mall before the tax hits.

What would it cost? Emanuel argues in his book that a 10 percent VAT would pay for every American not entitled to Medicare or Medicaid to enroll in a health plan with no deductibles and minimal copayments. In his 2008 book, "100 Million Unnecessary Returns," Yale law professor Michael J. Graetz estimates that a VAT of 10 to 14 percent would raise enough money to exempt families earning less than $100,000 -- about 90 percent of households -- from the income tax and would lower rates for everyone else.

And in a paper published last month in the Virginia Tax Review, Burman suggests that a 25 percent VAT could do it all: Pay for health-care reform, balance the federal budget and exempt millions of families from the income tax while slashing the top rate to 25 percent. A gallon of milk would jump from $3.69 to $4.61, and a $5,000 bathroom renovation would suddenly cost $6,250, but the nation's debt would stabilize and everybody could see a doctor.

Burman, who helped House Democrats craft an unsuccessful 2007 plan to repeal the alternative minimum tax, said he's received a number of phone calls from lawmakers interested in his idea, though "they can't quite imagine how to make it happen politically." Burman said the 25 percent rate has caused some sticker shock, and he's trying to figure out how to bring it down.

Graetz's proposal drew an endorsement from Volcker, who last year called it "a sensible plan for reform." (Volcker did not respond to a request for comment.) It also has piqued the interest of Conrad, the Senate Budget Committee chairman who argues that it could be modified to accommodate Obama's pledge not to raise taxes on families who make less than $200,000 a year.

"I think interest is quietly picking up," Graetz said. "People are beginning to recognize that the mathematics of the current system are just unsustainable. You have to do something. And a VAT has got to be on the table if you want to do something big and serious."

Still, the Senate Finance Committee declined to include a VAT among the options it is considering to pay for health reform. And even VAT supporters doubt the tax will find a place among the tax-reform proposals the Volcker panel has been asked to produce by Dec. 4.

Though the nation's fiscal outlook is grim, Burman said "the situation will have to get more desperate" before lawmakers are likely to consider a new levy aimed directly at the pocketbooks of every one of their constituents. Most lawmakers are still looking for "a painless source of revenue" to overhaul the health-care system and dig the nation out of debt, Burman said. "Who knows?" he added. "Maybe the tooth fairy will bring that to them."

Intrepid_Timer
05-27-2009, 08:50 AM
Great article! Clears up a lot of the questions people have about a nationall sales tax.

Thanks!

OBGibby
05-27-2009, 09:09 AM
I'm generally opposed to the VAT. I am intrigued by the 'Flat Tax' movement - one that replaces the complicated current tax system. I guess I like the simple idea that everyone should pay the same flat rate tax, say 15% on income. No more tax loopholes, deductions or credits - everyone pays the same. The idea seems so simple that it probably will never come to fruition. But I've haven't really spent much time getting into the nuts and bolts of the 'Flat Tax' system to have good grasps of its merits or shortfalls.

The VAT, which is huge in Europe, is not the panacea the Euro's would love to have us think it is. Of course, the Euro's always try to tell us that their way of doing things is the best. Hasn't really worked out that well for them, especially in the last century, more commonly known as the 'American Century.'

One of the reasons the VAT was introduced in many European countries had more to do with their governments' inability to collect taxes, and the outright refusal of many of their citizens to pay any incomes taxes. So, this left the governments to rely more and more on the VAT. They Euro's tax everything, and if they get half of the taxes collected, they're happy. On the opposite side of the Atlantic, the U.S. has been fairly unique in that our citizens basically self-report their income and pay their taxes, in essence, voluntarily. An interesting concept isn't it?

As of right now, this talk of the VAT rearing its ugly head in the U.S. is disconcerting. It would be one thing if a VAT were to replace many or nearly all of the current taxes levied on Americans; however, that does not appear to be the case per this article. Rather, the VAT would be an enormous tax increase and added administrative burden on the backbone of our nations economy - the small business owner. I personally think hell has a better chance of freezing over before the VAT becomes a reality in the United States. Of course, I said the same thing about the prospect of Barak Obama getting elected. I guess I better get out my winter coat and gloves!

Here's an interesting article from The Economist from 2006:

Jun 20, 2006

Problems with the Value-Added Tax in Europe (http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/06/problems_with_t.html)

Conservative columnist Bruce Bartlett and others have pushed hard for the imposition of a Value-Added Tax in the U.S. to replace other federal taxes. My own reaction (http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/04/bartlett_starve.html) has been:

VATs are regressive, but they're an important source of revenue for highly progressive tax-and-transfer systems, so their characteristics depend upon the details of the implementation. However, one thing I do know, making estate tax repeal permanent while introducing a VAT would be a nasty case of bait and switch...
In supporting the VAT, Bartlett argues (http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/03/the_best_tax_ev.html):

This is the best strategy tax economists have ever devised for raising revenue without investing a lot in enforcement and economic incentives. The V.A.T. is a kind of sales tax embedded in the price of goods. ... [T]he tax is largely self-enforcing. And because the tax is applied only to consumption, its impact on incentives is minimal. ...
But is it self-enforcing? Since VATs continue to enter policy discussions, knowledge of how they've worked in countries that have used them can be helpful. According to this analysis in the Financial Times there are two main problems with the VAT in Europe where it has been widely adopted, fraud and complexity:

Evasion and exemptions erode VAT’s own value added, Financial Times (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/af06d6b0-ffc3-11da-93a0-0000779e2340.html): In half a century, value added tax has taken the world by storm... But despite its reach, some are ready to declare it an idea whose time has gone.
VAT fraud has become pervasive and, at least in Europe, the tax is at a watershed. Can it survive in its current form? ...[i]t is in Europe that the weaknesses are at their most glaring. This month the European Commission launched an “in-depth debate” on whether VAT should be modified. Chas Roy-Chowdhury of the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants says: “I think the writing is on the wall for the VAT system.”
European VAT is in a mess for two main reasons: its vulnerability to fraud and its complexity. Fraud, evasion and avoidance cost at least one in every 10 euros of the tax collected – roughly double that in other industrialised countries... VAT abuse takes many forms – most commonly the reluctance of traders in the black economy to have anything to do with the tax. But the biggest headache is sophisticated fraud. ...
The problem lies largely in the refund process... VAT is normally self-policing: everyone in the supply chain has an incentive to act as tax-collectors as they offset the VAT they pay their suppliers against the VAT they charge their customers. But in some circumstances, notably when exporting goods – which are VAT-free under nearly all national systems – businesses can claim refunds. ... This fraud ... has forced governments to consider drastic remedies. ... Germany and Austria are pressing for a “reverse charge” mechanism that would in effect turn VAT into a hybrid sales tax.
As well as the administrative hassles faced by exporters, businesses are often left paying big VAT bills as a result of governments’ desire to exempt certain types of goods and services, such as education, from the tax. Some critics argue that governments should reduce, if not eliminate, exemptions and reductions. ...
And Germany is pressing hard for action. From a June 8 Financial Times report:

Germany blocks EU deal on e-commerce services, by By George Parker and Vanessa Houlder, Financial Times (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/36dfa79c-f68c-11da-b09f-0000779e2340.html): Germany yesterday claimed at a monthly Ecofin council of European Union finance ministers that value added tax fraud was costing it €17bn-€18bn a year and demanded that it be allowed to change its tax rules to tackle the problem.
Peer Steinbrück, German finance minister, blocked a separate agreement on the taxation of e-commerce services, indicating he would not budge until Berlin won permission to adopt measures to tackle VAT fraud.
Germany and Austria, the current holder of the EU presidency, want to make wide use of so-called "reverse" charging of VAT, a mechanism for accounting for VAT that denies a fraudulent supplier the opportunity to pocket the tax.
Although Laszlo Kovacs, the EU tax commissioner, is sceptical about whether the system is effective in beating fraud, he was asked to draft legislation that would give the countries the option to use reverse charging. ...
For a tax sold as "largely self-enforcing," the finding that fraud, evasion and avoidance result in lost tax collections that are "roughly double that in other industrialised countries" is notable. And repeating from above, if Germany and Austria prevail in their reform efforts, the ""reverse charge" mechanism ... would in effect turn VAT into a hybrid sales tax."

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/06/problems_with_t.html

nnuut
05-27-2009, 09:10 AM
VAT plan = VERTICALLY ASCENDING TAX Plan!! :nuts:

Scout333
05-27-2009, 09:22 AM
The VAT as a tax system has a huge multiplier effect since it is generally applied at every level of production. A small increase in the rate can have an enormous effect on the taxes paid. Spoke with an OMB repr in DC several years ago and they said the real drawback is giving Congress access to raising such huge amounts of money. i.e. a .5% increase in rate doesn't sound like much but because of the multiplier effect it raises a tremendous amount of money. May get little attention from the constituents. :(Plus in its pure state it is highly regressive!

Silverbird
05-27-2009, 10:55 AM
Yes, but the problem with the current system, it actually taxes you for working (wages are taxed), not for spending.:rolleyes:
A VAT tax, to make sense, cannot tax inputs, only final products. It's a pain to get the legislation right so that this occurs, and there always will be some mistakes, but on the whole this can be done.

OBGibby
05-27-2009, 11:27 AM
Silverbird - I would agree, if the VAT were the only tax levied. However, when the VAT tax man comes a'callin', it's in conjunction with regular income taxes as well.

Here's a breakdown of some European tax rates, taken from www.worldwide-tax.com (http://www.worldwide-tax.com) :


INCOME TAX
COUNTRY CORPORATE INDIVIDUAL VAT
Belgium 33.99% 25-50% 21%
France 33.33% 5.5-40% 19.6%
Germany 30-33% 15-45% 19%
Ireland 12.5% 20-41% 21.5%
Italy 31.4% 23-43% 20%
UK 28% 0-40% 15%
USA 15-35% 15-35% 0%


1. In countries in which VAT is charged at a number of different rates, the rate in the Table is the highest rate.
2. The rates in the Table do not include Local tax, if it exists

Buster
05-27-2009, 07:49 PM
Uum...We already have a form of VAT..nothing new..

as causal everyday consumers...We pay Federal taxes on:

Gasoline and fuel oils
Tobacco
Alcohol
Hunting permits
Gun purchases (of some types)
Auto purchases (excises)
Etc.

and..This is just what I thought of off the top of my head..

James48843
05-27-2009, 08:57 PM
No matter what kind of tax system you set up-

i.e.- graduated income tax
VAT,
Flat Tax,
sales tax,
state tax
county tax
phone tax
corporate tax

etc
etc
etc-

someone is not going to be happy.

I kind of like the flat tax- but it would put hundreds of thousands of tax preparers and accountants out of work, now wouldn't it?

On second thought- yes- I would like a flat tax.... :-)

OBGibby
05-27-2009, 11:37 PM
Buster -

You are correct, we already have VATs in many different forms under different names. The main problem with a national VAT is that it doesn't replace any other taxes, it just adds to them.

mick504
05-28-2009, 02:00 AM
They should just call it what it really is...a bailout tax...! It's like when a bridge is built...like the floating bridge that crossed Seattle to Bellevue WA. It was 25 cents to cross the bridge, then 10 cents. After it was paid off, the toll stopped. New York doesn't do that....they just keep charging and charging upon entering NY. I was there 2 years ago....about $6.00 to enter lovely NY. Glad I don't live there...just visiting my daughter. Now if NY sells it like the Chicago Mayor Daly sold their parking meters...it may cost. $60.00 to enter lovely NY. You know that Obama is from Chicago....probably good friends with Mayor Daly....another smart guy. We're screwed....can't say it any simplier.