Dangerous Job? How About Matching Contributions...

[Tankrat37]

Hello All Military Personnel,

Do you have a dangerous or extremely important job? If so, how would you feel about matching TSP contributions? Here are my thoughts. I have a dangerous job. I crawl around inside aircraft fuel tanks and fix system malfunctions and leaks. This is a dangerous and important job. No fuel supply, no fly. We have the most diverse job on the flightline at any Air Force base, no matter what any crew chief says. We deal with all systems on the a/c and work the hardest of anyone. Enough soapbox talk though. Nonners (non sortie generating/flightline personnel) such as IMers and MPF weaklings do not have important jobs. If you wear blues on Monday, never work weekends, get an hour lunch daily, and have never worked 80hrs in one week, your job is not important. For those who are important, please read on. We should get matching contributions. We have more responsibility and deal with more "crap" in one month than any nonner will in an entire 20yr career. It is not fair that a TSgt in finance gets paid the same as a TSgt that busts his ass on the flightline and makes life or death decisions day in and day out. We should be compensated. My proposal is that we all come together and write congress or an AF lobbyist to make this wrong a right. If you believe this is worth pursuing, you're a man. If not, fall in with the rest of 'em!

[Show-me]

Wow, those hours remind me of my Marine Corps Avionics days during the first Gulf War keeping Vietnam era planes in the air. I miss those days.

Go get'em! Start making a sign up list and have them all send a letter to their Senators and Representatives.

[PessOptimist]

Hello All Military Personnel,

Do you have a dangerous or extremely important job?

Many of us do/did. Just because you have to daily crawl through holes smaller than your body and search for leaks/flaws in a toxic environment that may or may not explode at any moment or just kill you with the fumes gives you no right to complain. :D

Enough soapbox talk though.

Apperantly not yet. You continue:

Nonners (non sortie generating/flightline personnel) such as IMers and MPF weaklings do not have important jobs. If you wear blues on Monday, never work weekends, get an hour lunch daily, and have never worked 80hrs in one week, your job is not important.

I hear ya brother, but having spent a career as a comm type (not IM or IT or whatever they call it these days, but someone who kept the radios and telephones working) I got really tired of hearing that "nonners" were second class airmen. If you didn't fix aircraft or generate sorties or feed aircrews or fix the things aircrews **** or slept in you weren't "doing a job". So vent some of that anger toward the "zipper suited sun gods".

The MPF types will try to process your issues in between being Airman/NCO of the whatever and chile cookoffs and whatever feel good meeting they must attend to get awards. Whenever I had to deal with them I brought a copy of the Airman Assignments Manual (used to be AFR 39-6) so I could show them how to do their job. The best story I have is when I flew in to Torrejon AB Spain from a remote location to out process and found that they were all off that day having a party. I had a flight back to the US the next day so I needed to out process! I ended up going to the top 3 club and embarrassing the CMSGT CBPO (PF to you) in to finding someone to out process me.

OK, got off on a rant there. Bottom line here is that those who serve the zipper suits are not he only one's doing an important job. I do agree with your assessment of the attitude of IT/IM and MPF and DFAS types. Most did in my time seem to be more interested in wearing pretty uniforms and kissing asses than doing their jobs. Apparently that has not changed.

For those who are important, please read on. We should get matching contributions. We have more responsibility and deal with more "crap" in one month than any nonner will in an entire 20yr career. It is not fair that a TSgt in finance gets paid the same as a TSgt that busts his ass on the flightline and makes life or death decisions day in and day out. We should be compensated. My proposal is that we all come together and write congress or an AF lobbyist to make this wrong a right. If you believe this is worth pursuing, you're a man. If not, fall in with the rest of 'em!

Good luck with your quest for matching contributions. Im with you all the way. My advice would be to drop the "important" part and press on. We used to use the same argument except we usually used cooks and those who had a 18 month tech school and years of further training on specific systems. Also drop the "be a man" stuff, you know that that will only get you grief.

Drink a shot of JP4 (dating myself I know) every morning and things will be OK. Feel free to PM me at any time. Might be a good dialog between retired lifer and AD AF.

[Rod]

Hello All Military Personnel,

If you wear blues on Monday, never work weekends, get an hour lunch daily, and have never worked 80hrs in one week, your job is not important.

I've worked 120 hour weeks... no days off, and wear blues on Monday. We've all had our share, and then some. But, I sense a bit of envy or entitlement on your part. Perhaps it's the water in Japan???

Remember your whining once/if you become a SNCO so you can take care of those under you who whine the same. In the meantime, just do the job that you volunteered to do. If that means you work weekends, you work weekends. If that means you don't get a regular lunch, then pack a lunch. If that means you work an 80 hour week once in a while, be proud that you busted your rear contributing to the mission just as a "nonner" contributes during their average 45-50 hour work week.

FYI, all secretaries of the military services have already been authorized by congress to give matching contributions. So, it's them you need to be "lobbying". Not congress. But you just may have to give up your pension in the process. Furthermore, before you were to proceed you first need to "lobby" the AF to give you haz duty pay.;) What do you think you will look like petitioning for matching contributions for a "dangerous job" if you're not authorized haz duty??? Think about it.

For the record- I'm an 20 year Aerial Porter (working a Wing level special duty slot).

-Rod

[PessOptimist]

I've worked 120 hour weeks... no days off, and wear blues on Monday.
For the record- I'm an 20 year Aerial Porter (working a Wing level special duty slot).

-Rod

So, Rod what did you do before you wore blues on Monday and got your "special duty assignment"? Hump pallets or schedule aircraft. There is a world of difference. The rat has some points. If you did work 18 hour days for 7 days did you wear blues on monday? Hope you make Chief soon if you are not one all ready. The WING SPECIAL DUTY SLOT oughtta help a lot.

[Rod]

So, Rod what did you do before you wore blues on Monday and got your "special duty assignment"? Hump pallets or schedule aircraft. There is a world of difference. The rat has some points. If you did work 18 hour days for 7 days did you wear blues on monday? Hope you make Chief soon if you are not one all ready. The WING SPECIAL DUTY SLOT oughtta help a lot.


The rat, as you call him, has points of whining. I've heard enough of it to know it in my 20 years. I'd be very surprised if he's an NCO. But then again, a lot of today's SSgt's/TSgt's leadership traits/abilities can be compared to yesteryear's SrA's- especially if they fast-tracked. He reinforces that in his post(s).

Anyways, I worked every Aerial Port duty besides rigger/cape forecasting. And yes, you wear blues if you're not on the line. But, I was drawing a correlation between being an Aerial Porter and then a "nonner". Yes, the Wing Special duty checks a 'box'.;)

[PessOptimist]

Hey Rod,
Didn't mean to make it personal, got a lot of feelings about a lot of things.

Tankrat is whining but also frustrated about a lot of things. Your job is to get to the bottom of it as a senior NCO or commisioned officer. Not sure which you are.

Fast track - sounds like you are on it. Perhaps you should think about your "whining" in previous times. If you say you never did then I submit you are a poor example of an Airman.

I went back and read all tankrat's posts. Yeah he whines and has delusions. But please do not forget that he has a reason for his whining and you cannot just shrug it off as "he's a whiner" and go forth with whatever the wing king wants. You have got to take care of the troops while you are furthering your own career. Please never forget that.

I invite PMs from you.

Dave

[Diesel]

TankRat,

You bring up a good point and generated asome thought on my part. I think you'd be better off to push through legislative channels for all military members to get matching funds rather than the ones that put in the long hours.

I would think that the reasoning the military doesn't get the matching 5% is because they've got a great retirement program. Earning 50% of your base pay after 20 years cannot be beat. I'm a retired 22 year Army Vet who now works for the Dept of Army-Aviation Missile Command. I came into the DA Civilian side in late 2005 where we fell under the FERS retirement program. I'm not sure what the benefits were for the CHRS (sp?) retirement folks but from my understanding the TSP is one of the main sources of our retirement under the FERS. Maybe some other members that fall under CHRS retirement plan or know the history can chime in.

[James48843]

Tankrat:

ALL jobs in the military are equally important.

Take it from someone who spent a lot of nights sleeping on the ground- you AF guys who get to sleep in beds and who have air conditioning have some great bennies that others who serve don't enjoy. Be happy you are blessed with some of the best equipment to do your job, and especially some of the best people in the world around you whom you will remember for the rest of your life. It's the people you serve with that make it the greatest thing out there.


Your service secretary already has authority to give you matching funds if he so chooses. Lobby him.


As for whining- it is actually a good thing. Actually, its VERY AMERICAN to bitch and moan about being the low rung on the service totem pole.


A good leader listens to what they are whining about. And tries to fix it.

If it is about the pay, that's good.

If they are whining about cold MRE's for the 22nd day, that's not so good, but still not terrible.

When they start whining that the water is gone, and they are out of ammunition- that is NOT where you want to be.

As a leader, you have to listen to what the troops are saying.

And try and fix it, so that they can do their jobs.

But when they stop whining entirely, that is when you REALLY have to worry.

BY the way...

thank you for serving.

[Tankrat37]

Thanks to those who have replied. Anyone can write their rep, but not anyone in the AF can write the AF Sec. I am one of those people who like to stir the pot, which I have apparently done here. I tend to talk without thought, and type the same way. I am also the "get it done" guy. Just because I don't walk and talk like a typical NCO doesn't make me a bad NCO, TSgt type. I like to think I am on the cutting edge of change. Old School isn’t universally accepted anymore; people are smarter and lazier these days, so leadership styles change. Change from the bottom up. So what constitutes a "right to complain?" It is certainly not a desk jokey, but definitely a ground pounder that doesn't have the tools to do his job. Why not somebody that works in austere conditions with little “good” spotlight time and recognition? Haz pay ($150/mo) would have to be given to everybody. Matching contributions would only go to those in TSP, and would "probably" be cheaper for the employer. Hey, maybe this is a job for a desk jokey! In between "official functions," they can interview maintainers to see if they qualify! Who am I kiddin... It seems when you ask for something, nothing gets done; but when you whine, well, the squeaky wheel...

[Rod]

Hey Rod,
Didn't mean to make it personal, got a lot of feelings about a lot of things.

Tankrat is whining but also frustrated about a lot of things. Your job is to get to the bottom of it as a senior NCO or commisioned officer. Not sure which you are.

Fast track - sounds like you are on it. Perhaps you should think about your "whining" in previous times. If you say you never did then I submit you are a poor example of an Airman.

I went back and read all tankrat's posts. Yeah he whines and has delusions. But please do not forget that he has a reason for his whining and you cannot just shrug it off as "he's a whiner" and go forth with whatever the wing king wants. You have got to take care of the troops while you are furthering your own career. Please never forget that.

I invite PMs from you.

Dave

No love lost, Dave. I stand by what I said. And no, I’m not shrugging it off. If I were, I would not had bothered to reply at all. What concerns me is his attitude- **** poor at that. My leadership philosophy as a SNCO toward **** poor attitudes is quite simple- I do not hold hands, but rather feet… to the fire. And I will be right there alongside my troop walking across the hot coals once they allow me "in". Now don’t get me wrong, I will empathize with a troop because that’s what a leader should do. But I will not idly stand by and allow a troop (even when he isn’t mine) contribute to breaking down the team. Crap like that just causes friction across the board and needs to be stomped out ASAP. At ant rate, in order to take care of someone, they have to first take care of themselves and realize they are part of a team effort. You cannot begin to help someone who believes other members of the team are not part of the team and important to their success.

He said, and I quote:

Nonners (non sortie generating/flightline personnel) such as IMers and MPF weaklings do not have important jobs. If you wear blues on Monday, never work weekends, get an hour lunch daily, and have never worked 80hrs in one week, your job is not important.
This is the **** poor attitude that needed corrected. And you do not correct this type of attitude “holding hands”. He understood where I was coming from, because he did not reply nor refer to my post.

Bottomline (and he will read this)- he would not be able to perform his job without the support of so-called “nonners”, especially when he is deployed.
When he needs medical treatment (possibly life-saving), a "nonner" treats him. When he needs dental treatment, a "nonner" treats him. When he has a pay problem, he asks for the assistance of a “nonner”. When he has a legal issue, he asks for the assistance of a “nonner”. When he’s hungry, a “nonner” feeds him. When he needs to bathe, a “nonner” provides fresh water. When he needs to relieve himself, a “nonner” provides the facilities. When he lays his head down to sleep, a “nonner” provides his bed. When he has personnel issues (personal or professional), he seeks the help of a “nonner”. When he seeks out entertainment, or something as simple as a beer, a "nonner" provides. So yeah, a “nonner’s” job is JUST AS important as his job. And if he still believes he does not need “nonners” in his life, or is more important than them, then I, nor anyone else, can “get to the bottom” and reach out to him. Until he accepts others as part of the team, our efforts will only be in vain. And as you can imagine, this sort of **** poor attitude goes far beyond demanding matching contributions for a “dangerous job” for which he does not even receive hazardous pay.

Peace

[roskopfm]

Tankrat, if you think your job is so bad that it deserves more pay then why arent you doing what you call the easy job.

[Lostdawg]

A few thoughts.

Military TSP is for all DoD, not just Air Force. Matching funds would be very expensive. Way more costly than any Air Force HAZ pay. So why would DoD do that, when they don't have to?

I looked up HAZ pay for the Air Force. It’s very different from the Navy. Seems to me they would not have to pay very many people that money. Thousands maybe vice hundreds of thousands for matching TSP. Much less cost to the tax payer than a DoD wide matching TSP! That HAZ pay comes out of the Air Force budget. So definitely you have an Air Force issue with that. Talk to your Senior Enlisted. I'm sure he can explain why you do or do not qualify. If you don't like the answer, you have other options.

TSP is a retirement vehicle. I wish it would have been around when I joined, instead of showing up toward the end of my military career. Quite frankly, be happy you have it. Take advantage of it to the best of your financial abilities.

Should the military have matching TSP? Sure, but it would probably come at the expense of your High-3 retirement. Money has to come from somewhere. Ever wonder why we went from Final Pay to High-3? Maybe the bean counters could make it a High-5 or High-10 retirement. Then they could use the money saved to fund matching TSP. They would save a lot of money doing that. Or they could just go to High-5 and say suck it up.

In my opinion, you need to think outside your box. I won't go into your "old school leadership style" and "I" attitude because... well I promised myself I'd try to make this a constructive post.

(And I didn't even take a pot shot at the Air Force),

Work hard, play hard.
Navy Chief (Ret)

[Tankrat37]

No love lost, Dave. I stand by what I said. And no, I’m not shrugging it off. If I were, I would not had bothered to reply at all. What concerns me is his attitude- **** poor at that. My leadership philosophy as a SNCO toward **** poor attitudes is quite simple- I do not hold hands, but rather feet… to the fire. And I will be right there alongside my troop walking across the hot coals once they allow me "in". Now don’t get me wrong, I will empathize with a troop because that’s what a leader should do. But I will not idly stand by and allow a troop (even when he isn’t mine) contribute to breaking down the team. Crap like that just causes friction across the board and needs to be stomped out ASAP. At ant rate, in order to take care of someone, they have to first take care of themselves and realize they are part of a team effort. You cannot begin to help someone who believes other members of the team are not part of the team and important to their success.

He said, and I quote:

This is the **** poor attitude that needed corrected. And you do not correct this type of attitude “holding hands”. He understood where I was coming from, because he did not reply nor refer to my post.

Bottomline (and he will read this)- he would not be able to perform his job without the support of so-called “nonners”, especially when he is deployed.
When he needs medical treatment (possibly life-saving), a "nonner" treats him. When he needs dental treatment, a "nonner" treats him. When he has a pay problem, he asks for the assistance of a “nonner”. When he has a legal issue, he asks for the assistance of a “nonner”. When he’s hungry, a “nonner” feeds him. When he needs to bathe, a “nonner” provides fresh water. When he needs to relieve himself, a “nonner” provides the facilities. When he lays his head down to sleep, a “nonner” provides his bed. When he has personnel issues (personal or professional), he seeks the help of a “nonner”. When he seeks out entertainment, or something as simple as a beer, a "nonner" provides. So yeah, a “nonner’s” job is JUST AS important as his job. And if he still believes he does not need “nonners” in his life, or is more important than them, then I, nor anyone else, can “get to the bottom” and reach out to him. Until he accepts others as part of the team, our efforts will only be in vain. And as you can imagine, this sort of **** poor attitude goes far beyond demanding matching contributions for a “dangerous job” for which he does not even receive hazardous pay.

Peace

Actually, my last post was in reference to your post; but just so you know I am referring to you, I will quote your post this time. I hate re-reading posts, so that is why I don't usually quote other posts, but this time I will. Nonners have a job, yes, but how many of them have gotten A15s and lost stripes for not doing a single step/aspect of their job correctly? With your wing-level position, you should be able to fanangle a way to jump in a tank (if at a heavy base) and see first hand what we experience. If not, just imagine removing all the cushioning from the seats and floor of your car, placing a bicycle in the back seat, filling the car with toxic/explosive fumes, and crawling from the trunk to the front seat to change a fuse while looking in a mirror and using a needle nose pliers; for some perspective. I think you and I (Rod) have a lot of similarities. I don't like ****** attitudes, laziness, or complacency. I make sure to correct those attitudes. If not correctable, give'em the boot. I only help those who help themselves and are "worth it." I encourage free thinking (w/in the confines of the TOs and AFIs) on the job. People w/ experience shouldn't have to be told what to do, (SrA and above) but empowered to make a difference. Always challenge/question the norm; strive for change/improvement. Maybe I was a bit brash in my first thread; all jobs are important, but in certain degrees. If I don't get paid (finance doesn't do their job), I still do my job and planes still fly. If I don't do my job, planes don't fly- last I checked, the Air Force was all about fly, fight, and win. Yes, it takes a team effort, but face it, some jobs are just more important and have more responsibility than others to get that mission done. No, I wouldn't be in the AF w/out nonners, but if those nonners ceased to exist, planes would still fly (for a limited time) without them. This thread has strayed waaaayyy from it's intention, but is still interesting to say the least. As for roskopfm's post- I would love to cross-train, but I am trying to get to a certain location in a certain time, so that would just delay my plans; I have known others whom have x-trained from my AFSC, and yes, they say the nonner world is cake. I encourage others to x-train out of the 2A6X4 career field, just because it does suck that bad. I can stick it out for a few more years to get that retirement money, but I would like others in my AFSC to get what they deserve. As for Chief Lostdawg's post; the separate secretaries have the power to enact matching contributions. I was only referring to dangerous/hi-pro jobs in the AF. My bad for not specifying. "My bad," it seems, is a saying that makes it all better when MPF jacks up your paperwork; so why not here? It would be interesting to get a demographic of the tsptalk.com MBs' participants. Maybe that would show why it seems to be so one-sided.

[Rod]

Maybe I was a bit brash in my first thread; all jobs are important, but in certain degrees.

Yes... and yes. I now believe we see eye-to-eye.

Now, back to the intent of your thread. Unfortunately, we will never see matching contributions, at least not during our tenures. As already pointed out, that would have to come out of each service branch budget since service secretaries have already been authorized the match.

I do remember reading somewhere that one option in the future for new recruits could be choosing between matching contributions/full retirement.

I don't believe that will be offered anytime soon, though.

Some final food for thought... you may want to contact your local AFSA chapter president and ask them if this is on their lobbying agenda.

Peace