America's Path To Euro-Taxes

[CountryBoy]

Very eye opening read on where our taxes are going and how they are being camouflaged. It's stealth tax increases, they just rename them to fool the stupid.

"It is hard to imagine that markets are not being affected by the potential for major changes in U.S. tax policy. Sen. Obama says he wants tax rates back where they were in 2000, while Sen. McCain says he wants to keep income tax rates down to a maximum of 35%. With both the House and Senate under Democratic control, Obama will have an easier time following through on his plans than McCain."

We'll be Eropean before ya know it and to think our Founding Fathers left there, now we are headed back.

http://www.forbes.com/home/2008/10/27/taxes-obama-progressive-oped-cx_bw_rs_1028wesburystein.html

"Obama wants to raise taxes on "the rich," but "cut" taxes for 95% of Americans. He does this by giving $500 to anyone who is in the workforce and earns between $8,000 and $75,000 per year. In addition, he would use tax credits to further subsidize daycare, college and unwed (working) parents."

Some of us are really in for a good screwing. :mad:

We don't even begin to understand the depth of obama's hate and ultimate plan to destroy America's middle class and without a middle class, no economy. Canada had better build a wall. :laugh:

CB

[Silverbird]

Interesting analysis, but not sure how to pay for the mess we are in now without raising taxes on someone. Continuing the same tax policies as introduced under Bush will only work if the wars continue to be paid off-budget and any economic stimulus put on "emergency" off budget bills.

We are in debt up to our eyeballs. How much longer will the $ get propped up before it's fiscal toilet paper?

If there is another answer, love to hear it. And not "Cut Government" please, already fell for that one under Bush and he did it at the expense of not finishing announced projects (border fence) and foisting projects on contractors with no oversight, and it's not enough anyway even if we closed the Civilian part of Government completely.

[CountryBoy]

Interesting analysis, but not sure how to pay for the mess we are in now without raising taxes on someone. Continuing the same tax policies as introduced under Bush will only work if the wars continue to be paid off-budget and any economic stimulus put on "emergency" off budget bills.

We are in debt up to our eyeballs. How much longer will the $ get propped up before it's fiscal toilet paper?

I agree with ya and the lie that sticks in my crawl is only the rich will be taxed and I say Bravo Sierra to that. We'll all be taxed, regardless of what they want to call it, how they bundle it or make irt smell, bull crap is bull crap. Look out for our 401K's tax free status disappearing and capital gains taxes going up. Congress has beaten it into our heads, for years, to save and now they want to plunder our savings. I just hate liars, they need to fess up and be men about it.

Truth be known, the Feds have been cooking the books and our $'s are probably already is fiscal toilet paper. :laugh:

CB

[Silverbird]

Rich are an easy target because they got a lot more from the Bush tax changes. Before things went completely haywire, it was as simple as not renewing them, but that won't do any good now as many don't come up for renewal until 2011/2012. So it's out in the open...now.

As you say, it's not enough. But I'm not hearing *anything* but same old thing from the Grand Old Party, which scares me more because no one notices borrowing until the bill hits you in the....

Yes I know, no easy answers. BTW, we lack the control of our fiscal markets to ever follow a European model, especially that of the French. Not enough money, too many banks and companies to control. Ours developed in a diverse manner, which is a good thing given our overall philosophy. Even the most crass "liberal" thinker in the U.S. has no idea which of our many cell phone systems would be the best, and would be p.o.ed if it was their phone that went down and when confronted with Beta and VHS would have been pilloried for picking the "wrong" one. Our entire Economic system is based on everyone can play IF they stay in the sandbox. This is consistent through both Democratic and Republican and probably even Bull Moose Administrations, it's wayyyy tooo diverse now to be dismantled. We have a "messy" (in some other countries's eyes) system that doesn't have an economy policy and we like it.

[CountryBoy]

Rich are an easy target because they got a lot more from the Bush tax changes. Before things went completely haywire, it was as simple as not renewing them, but that won't do any good now as many don't come up for renewal until 2011/2012. So it's out in the open...now.

As you say, it's not enough. But I'm not hearing *anything* but same old thing from the Grand Old Party, which scares me more because no one notices borrowing until the bill hits you in the....

Yes I know, no easy answers. BTW, we lack the control of our fiscal markets to ever follow a European model, especially that of the French. Not enough money, too many banks and companies to control. Ours developed in a diverse manner, which is a good thing.

I agree, I'd love to hear one of them say they be a 10% reduction across the board. Yeah I know Barney is calliing for a 25% cut in the military, then by gosh, lets make it 25% across the board. No sacred cows, everyone's gets gored. That's gotta be the first step. Stop Spending.

So far we lack control of our fiscal markets, but I don't like the way the Feds are pouring money into our banking system and have even admitted that some of the smaller banks will fail and we'll have a few super banks. I believe this is one thing that got Japan in trouble in the 90's, insufficient banks to loan money out to people.

I'm not hearing anything from either party that instills any confidence in me and when you do hear something, it's always the same old tired plan, tax the rich, give to the poor, no middle class tax increase. How many times have we heard that mantra? And look how successful it's been. As I've said before it's the lazy, dumb man's solution to our problem.

And I'm sorry, but obama's socialist leanings and his circle of friends scare me to death and instill no confidence in his ability to judge people, who has America's best interest at heart. That along with the below lawyer's analysis of some of obama's comments that have slipped thru the main stream media , also worry me.

http://www.forbes.com/home/2008/10/24/barack-obama-law-ent-law-cx_rb_1023robertbovarnickobama.html

CB

[KevinD]

I believe revenue collection (taxes) and spending (tax credits) should be completely separate. What does home mortgage interest (or any other line on the schedule A) have to do with collecting taxes. What do Roth IRA's have to do with collecting taxes? What does the money we spend on a college education for our children or ourselves have to do with collecting taxes?

The word transparency comes to mind.

[Silverbird]

They only have to do with collecting taxes because they are subject to special income tax laws, and here we tax income. Without the special laws all of our pay would be treated equally, whether its put into retirement, saved for college, used to buy a house, or used to buy a Starbucks Coffee with a Big Screen (foreign) TV.

We haven't decided to go for a consumption tax. If you think about it, that's European, so not all of their Tax policy is completely socialist out to lunch, IMNSHO. In this case, Euro-Taxes may be...good! Beware Buzzwords. Income tax is just easier because Joe Consumer doesn't suffer StickerShock,and corporations are evil, right?:rolleyes:

[Steadygain]

Sen. Obama says he wants tax rates back where they were in 2000

With the House and Senate under Democratic control, Obama will have an easier time following through on his plans

We'll be Eropean before ya know it and to think our Founding Fathers left there, now we are headed back.

Some of us are really in for a good screwing. :mad:

We don't even begin to understand the depth of obama's hate and ultimate plan to destroy America's middle class and without a middle class, no economy.
CB

CB,
In all due respect, this is wholly a "McCain Add" - by using scare tactics against Obama.

Oh well, who knows you may have swayed another potiential voter towards McCain - but I'd imagine that by this time anyone voting for Obama sees him as the 'Ultimate Middle Class' supporter.

I think the RICH are finally going to have to pay their share - they have been hugely protected over the years and for once there is a hope that the ones who struggle will not have to struggle as hard; and the ones who live in ultra luxury and never struggle will give a little more.

No one knows the end result - NO ONE - so we simply hope for the best. I wouldn't doubt that Obama gets assignated; not because of his economic views or anything remotely connected to politics...but simply because of his race (or perceived religious beliefs).

Anyway, it's beyond me; so let's just hope that we can all support the winner regardless of who it is.

[CountryBoy]

CB,
In all due respect, this is wholly a "McCain Add" - by using scare tactics against Obama.

Oh well, who knows you may have swayed another potiential voter towards McCain - but I'd imagine that by this time anyone voting for Obama sees him as the 'Ultimate Middle Class' supporter.

I think the RICH are finally going to have to pay their share - they have been hugely protected over the years and for once there is a hope that the ones who struggle will not have to struggle as hard; and the ones who live in ultra luxury and never struggle will give a little more.

No one knows the end result - NO ONE - so we simply hope for the best. I wouldn't doubt that Obama gets assignated; not because of his economic views or anything remotely connected to politics...but simply because of his race (or perceived religious beliefs).

Anyway, it's beyond me; so let's just hope that we can all support the winner regardless of who it is.

Steady

Actually your first 2 comments you attributed to me was from a Forbes article that I linked to. You can read it to see. No scare tactics, his words and the ease of executing these words, sometimes the truth can be scary. And it scares me when one side or the other has such anticipated total control of the legislative process, that there aren’t any checks and balances.

The last 3 comments were my own feelings, which I can still express in this country and if you had read any more of my posts along this subject, I have said that we will all be taxed, regardless of what obama calls it. I wholly expect my taxes to go up, whether he wants to call it a capital gains tax on my ROTH or eliminate/reduce the tax free status of my TSP (401K) or whether he’ll actually man up and just say he needs to raise taxes.

The middle class has historically always taken the hit on taxes. I want to see for every $ increase in taxes and $ reduction in spending. If were going to do this lets do it right. Why should folks who never pay taxes get rebates? But cutting spending an equal amount we all are in this together and to me that’s only fair.

I’m sure the rich will pay their share, at least that share that isn’t already over seas, with the jobs that this money creates. Buffet keeps saying that, but most folks don’t realize the bulk of his estate is tied up in trusts and stuff and can’t be taxed. That’s how the rich do it.

I’ve always supported the office of the President and I never even gave Bill Clinton a second thought until he lied to a Grand Jury, thinking he was above the law. When he broke the law, that’s what did it for me. So he was a sexual predator and got hummers in the oval office, he was alsoset a poor example for the youth of the country and he shamed the office, but until that point, he wasn’t even on my radar.

I’ll not even mention the A word, because that would just be the beginning of this country tearing itself apart at the seams.

Whoever wins, life will go on and like all of us here on this board, we’ll continue to make do with the crap the Feds feed us. But that doesn’t mean I don’t have the right to gripe or say something different should’ve been done, at least not yet.

Sorry this was so long and nothing personal was meant by any of it. :D

CB

[Silverbird]

Sorry Countryboy, I got agitated.. I'll get my last posting moved over to the Election thread. Hard to keep a lid on right now. The rest I think stayed on subject.

[CountryBoy]

Sorry Countryboy, I got agitated.. I'll get my last posting moved over to the Election thread. Hard to keep a lid on right now. The rest I think stayed on subject.

No need to feel sorry Silverbird, I didn't take anything personal, we all get a little agitated at times. There wasn't much I could add to the election part, because it's true, it would be nice though if a common sense third party would come into being, because most of us are somehwere in that middle 60 to 70 percent and the far left and right and duke it out. :laugh:

CB

[The HalfBreed]

Hopefully, fiscal integrity will dominate the conversations in DC. We need to go back to when Clinton had spending under control and there was actually a surplus (if you wish to call it that), but the first 6 years of Rubber Stamp politics under the Bush administration has gotten the federal deficit way out of hand, and the commensurate increases in the national debt, approved by congress in the past 8 years bear that out.

From Forbes also: (http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneursfinance/2008/09/04/mccain-obama-taxes-ent-fin-cx_kw_0904whartontaxes.html)


McCain would cut overall income taxes for the top 1% of American earners, according to recent data from the Tax Policy Center (TPC), a nonpartisan joint venture of the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution. Obama would raise taxes on those in the highest tax bracket while reducing them for low- and moderate-income families.
The TPC study says both candidates' tax plans would substantially increase the national debt over the next decade, although the candidates themselves have made general promises to reduce the deficit and eventually balance the federal budget. The study also says that neither candidate articulates how he will do this. As for the tax cuts, McCain says he would renew the package of cuts initiated by President Bush (http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/10/28/ap5611774.html?partner=lingospot) (due to expire in 2011), while Obama says he will keep only some of those cuts.
So, we will see how it all bares out over the next few years. One thing we all would agree on, is that this country should get it's act together. But that also, is a different point of contention, for another thread.

[Steadygain]

The last 3 comments were my own feelings, which I can still express in this country

But that doesn’t mean I don’t have the right to gripe or say something different should’ve been done, at least not yet.

Sorry this was so long and nothing personal was meant by any of it. :D

CB

Sorry CB - my fault, I shoud have known better.

[CountryBoy]

Sorry CB - my fault, I shoud have known better.

Yeah me to Steady,

It's no ones fault. We’re letting this election bring out the worse in us and we should know better. I know we disagree on some things, but we need to maintain our respect and friendship for each other. :D

CB

I hope this goes thru cause I’m having trouble with my home PC

[CountryBoy]

Hopefully, fiscal integrity will dominate the conversations in DC. We need to go back to when Clinton had spending under control and there was actually a surplus (if you wish to call it that), but the first 6 years of Rubber Stamp politics under the Bush administration has gotten the federal deficit way out of hand, and the commensurate increases in the national debt, approved by congress in the past 8 years bear that out.

From Forbes also: (http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneursfinance/2008/09/04/mccain-obama-taxes-ent-fin-cx_kw_0904whartontaxes.html)

So, we will see how it all bares out over the next few years. One thing we all would agree on, is that this country should get it's act together. But that also, is a different point of contention, for another thread.

And I was all chilled out after getting back with Steady. and I see this one sided blame game post.

Sure we need to see how this bears out over the next few years and we sure need more than fiscal integrity, we need honesty. CLinton's under control spending was a result of the Rep Congress that brought to the country the Contract with America balanced budget legislation and if I'm not mistaken they overrode CLinton's veto of "Balanced Budget" legislation or the initial viote prevented any veto. I'm sure I'll be corrected if that is wrong. Plus the dot com boom was going full speed ahead and money was cheap and Greenspan had cheap money flowing for housing also in the 90's for the start of the housing bubble.

Ya see, this Damn blame game has got to stop. The Dems fingerprints are all over this subprime mess as well. And we mustn't forget that pesky 9/11 attack and the dems have had control of congress the last 2 years as we continued to spiral down the toilet and this downward spiral start in Oct 2007, under Dem control of the Congress. So sack up and take some of the blame, because I'm sick and tired of saying the Reps had a big hand in it and Bushes outta contol spending. We'll never solve this problem until both sides man up and accept responsiblity.

There are plenty of mistakes to go around, but this little childish sniping comments like rubber stamp politics, sure would want to make me cooperate.

Did ya read the other Forbes link? Didn't like that huh?

CB

[The_Technician]

And I was all chilled out after getting back with Steady. and I see this one sided blame game post.

Sure we need to see how this bears out over the next few years and we sure need more than fiscal integrity, we need honesty. CLinton's under control spending was a result of the Rep Congress that brought to the country the Contract with America balanced budget legislation and if I'm not mistaken they overrode CLinton's veto of "Balanced Budget" legislation or the initial viote prevented any veto. I'm sure I'll be corrected if that is wrong. Plus the dot com boom was going full speed ahead and money was cheap and Greenspan had cheap money flowing for housing also in the 90's for the start of the housing bubble.

Ya see, this Damn blame game has got to stop. The Dems fingerprints are all over this subprime mess as well. And we mustn't forget that pesky 9/11 attack and the dems have had control of congress the last 2 years as we continued to spiral down the toilet and this downward spiral start in Oct 2007, under Dem control of the Congress. So sack up and take some of the blame, because I'm sick and tired of saying the Reps had a big hand in it and Bushes outta contol spending. We'll never solve this problem until both sides man up and accept responsiblity.

There are plenty of mistakes to go around, but this little childish sniping comments like rubber stamp politics, sure would want to make me cooperate.

Did ya read the other Forbes link? Didn't like that huh?

CB


What one would say, "Where there is smoke, there is fire".....that could be taken for both candidates and what they represent.

[fabijo]

All this talk about taxes. All this time on TSP Talk and us talking about the Federal Reserve... Haven't we learned that money itself is tax? What is the reserve? What's in the reserve? Who is borrowing the money? Where are they borrowing it from?

All money in circulation was loaned out by the Federal Reserve, which is made up of private banks. They loan money out of thin air and collect interest on it. The money itself is our tax. It all has to go back to the Federal Reserve at some point, since they're the ones who loaned it out in the first place.

[Frixxxx]

All this talk about taxes. All this time on TSP Talk and us talking about the Federal Reserve... Haven't we learned that money itself is tax? What is the reserve? What's in the reserve? Who is borrowing the money? Where are they borrowing it from?

All money in circulation was loaned out by the Federal Reserve, which is made up of private banks. They loan money out of thin air and collect interest on it. The money itself is our tax. It all has to go back to the Federal Reserve at some point, since they're the ones who loaned it out in the first place.
Based on that information, then we can call this part of the "Big Bang" theory of Economics.....First there was no money than Bang!!! Now there is all this money that nobody knows where it really comes from? The amount of money expanded and has now contracted. Soon there will be no money at all?:laugh:

[fabijo]

The amount of money expanded and has now contracted. Soon there will be no money at all?:laugh:

Surprisingly, that might not be far from the truth.