SEC- No More Naked Shorting

[James48843]

SEC issued a new rule yesterday- trying to
stop naked short selling.

http://sec.gov/news/press/2008/2008-204.htm

If they had only put back in the Uptick rule instead, it would be a lot more successful.

We'll see if the new rule against naked shorting does anything.

===========================================

SEC Issues New Rules to Protect Investors Against Naked Short Selling Abuses

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
2008-204

Washington, D.C., Sept. 17, 2008 — The Securities and Exchange Commission today took several coordinated actions to strengthen investor protections against "naked" short selling. The Commission's actions will apply to the securities of all public companies, including all companies in the financial sector. The actions are effective at 12:01 a.m. ET on Thursday, Sept. 18, 2008.


Additional Materials


New Short Selling Rules (http://sec.gov/rules/other/2008/34-58572.pdf)
"These several actions today make it crystal clear that the SEC has zero tolerance for abusive naked short selling," said SEC Chairman Christopher Cox. "The Enforcement Division, the Office of Compliance Inspections and Examinations, and the Division of Trading and Markets will now have these weapons in their arsenal in their continuing battle to stop unlawful manipulation."


In an ordinary short sale, the short seller borrows a stock and sells it, with the understanding that the loan must be repaid by buying the stock in the market (hopefully at a lower price). But in an abusive naked short transaction, the seller doesn't actually borrow the stock, and fails to deliver it to the buyer. For this reason, naked shorting can allow manipulators to force prices down far lower than would be possible in legitimate short-selling conditions.

Today's Commission actions, which are the result of rulemaking under the Administrative Procedure Act, go beyond its previously issued emergency order, which was limited to the securities of financial firms with access to the Federal Reserve's Primary Dealer Credit Facility. Because the agency's exercise of its emergency authority is limited to 30 days, the previous order under Section 12(k)(2) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 expired on Aug. 12, 2008.


The Commission's actions were as follows:


Hard T+3 Close-Out Requirement; Penalties for Violation
Include Prohibition of Further Short Sales, Mandatory Pre-Borrow

The Commission adopted, on an interim final basis, a new rule requiring that short sellers and their broker-dealers deliver securities by the close of business on the settlement date (three days after the sale transaction date, or T+3) and imposing penalties for failure to do so.

If a short sale violates this close-out requirement, then any broker-dealer acting on the short seller's behalf will be prohibited from further short sales in the same security unless the shares are not only located but also pre-borrowed. The prohibition on the broker-dealer's activity applies not only to short sales for the particular naked short seller, but to all short sales for any customer.

Although the rule will be effective immediately, the Commission is seeking comment during a period of 30 days on all aspects of the rule. The Commission expects to follow further rulemaking procedures at the expiration of the comment period.


Exception for Options Market Makers from Short Selling Close-Out Provisions in Reg SHO Repealed

The Commission approved a final rule to eliminate the options market maker exception from the close-out requirement of Rule 203(b)(3) in Regulation SHO. This rule change also becomes effective at 12:01 a.m. ET on Thursday, Sept. 18, 2008.
As a result, options market makers will be treated in the same way as all other market participants, and required to abide by the hard T+3 closeout requirements that effectively ban naked short selling.


Rule 10b-21 Short Selling Anti-Fraud Rule

The Commission adopted Rule 10b-21, which expressly targets fraudulent short selling transactions. The new rule covers short sellers who deceive broker-dealers or any other market participants. Specifically, the new rule makes clear that those who lie about their intention or ability to deliver securities in time for settlement are violating the law when they fail to deliver. This rule also becomes effective at 12:01 a.m. ET on Thursday.

# # #

[Minnow]

If they had only put back in the Uptick rule instead, it would be a lot more successful.




# # #


Excellent point!!!

[James48843]

McCain calls for the head of the SEC to be fired:
AND- He blames him for eliminating the uptick rule.

(You don't suppose they read TSPTALK, do you?)


Story at: http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/mccain-calls-firing-sec-chairman/story.aspx?guid=%7b9C42FC79-8348-46D7-BB51-9DCC7C28CA7C%7d&siteid=yhoof&print=true&dist=printMidSection



McCain calls for firing of SEC Chairman Cox

Both campaigns trying to beef up their economic credentials



By Russ Britt (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/mailto.asp?x=114+98+114+105+116+116&y=Russ+Britt&z=marketwatch.com&guid=%7B9c42fc79-8348-46d7-bb51-9dcc7c28ca7c%7D&siteid=yhoof), MarketWatch
Last update: 1:22 p.m. EDT Sept. 18, 2008






LOS ANGELES (MarketWatch) - Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain on Thursday called for the firing of Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman Christopher Cox, saying he has "betrayed the public's trust."

In an attempt to beef up his economic credentials after taking a few hits for saying the nation's "fundamentals are strong" earlier this week, McCain got more aggressive, saying that the SEC was "asleep at the switch" and reiterated his call for tougher oversight of Wall Street.

He castigated the SEC for letting speculators "turn our markets into a casino," allowing naked short selling and eliminating the uptick rule to protect investors.

"Speculators pounded the shares of even good companies into the ground," McCain said. "The chairman of the SEC serves at the appointment of the President and, in my view, has betrayed the public's trust. If I were President today, I would fire him."

Bush press officials offered no comment on McCain's statement.

SEC spokespersons were not immediately available for comment.

McCain also went on the attack against his Democratic opponent, Sen. Barack Obama, criticizing him for talking a tough game on the financial markets but taking more money from Fannie Mae - recently taken over by government regulators - than all other senators but one.

"Fannie's former general counsel is a senior advisor to his campaign," McCain said. "Whose side do you think he is on?"

McCain also accused Obama of not taking a position on the bailout this week of giant insurer American International Group .

"On the biggest issue of the day, he didn't know what to think," McCain said.

The Obama camp disputed that.

"Considering the fact that John McCain flatly opposed the bailout of AIG a day before he changed course and supported it, we're not sure why on earth the McCain campaign wants to have a debate about economic indecision," Obama spokesman Bill Burton said in a prepared statement.

He added: "Barack Obama does not second guess the Fed's decision to take unprecedented action to prevent the failure of one of the largest insurance companies in the world from creating an even larger crisis, and he believes it must protect families who count on insurance." http://i.mktw.net/mw3/News/greendot.gif

Russ Britt is the Los Angeles bureau chief for MarketWatch.

[James48843]

[quote=James48843;181356]McCain calls for the head of the SEC to be fired:
AND- He blames him for eliminating the uptick rule.

(You don't suppose they read TSPTALK, do you?)


Story at: http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/mccain-calls-firing-sec-chairman/story.aspx?guid=%7b9C42FC79-8348-46D7-BB51-9DCC7C28CA7C%7d&siteid=yhoof&print=true&dist=printMidSection



McCain calls for firing of SEC Chairman Cox

Both campaigns trying to beef up their economic credentials



By Russ Britt (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/mailto.asp?x=114+98+114+105+116+116&y=Russ+Britt&z=marketwatch.com&guid=%7B9c42fc79-8348-46d7-bb51-9dcc7c28ca7c%7D&siteid=yhoof), MarketWatch
Last update: 1:22 p.m. EDT Sept. 18, 2008






LOS ANGELES (MarketWatch) - Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain on Thursday called for the firing of Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman Christopher Cox, saying he has "betrayed the public's trust."

In an attempt to beef up his economic credentials after taking a few hits for saying the nation's "fundamentals are strong" earlier this week, McCain got more aggressive, saying that the SEC was "asleep at the switch" and reiterated his call for tougher oversight of Wall Street.

He castigated the SEC for letting speculators "turn our markets into a casino," allowing naked short selling and eliminating the uptick rule to protect investors.

"Speculators pounded the shares of even good companies into the ground," McCain said. "The chairman of the SEC serves at the appointment of the President and, in my view, has betrayed the public's trust. If I were President today, I would fire him."

Bush press officials offered no comment on McCain's statement.

(Complete story here: http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/mccain-calls-firing-sec-chairman/story.aspx?guid=%7b9C42FC79-8348-46D7-BB51-9DCC7C28CA7C%7d&siteid=yhoof&print=true&dist=printMidSection (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/mccain-calls-firing-sec-chairman/story.aspx?guid=%7b9C42FC79-8348-46D7-BB51-9DCC7C28CA7C%7d&siteid=yhoof&print=true&dist=printMidSection)
)

[tsptalk]

Apparently you can still spread rumors and go long, but no more spreading rumors and selling short.

It's funny that they are going after the so called bad rumor spreading short sellers, but it sure seems like any negative rumors that were flying around were pretty true. Were things not bad - worse than investors were being led to believe? Silly.

I agree, the uptick rule may need to be implemented again, but I'm not so sure I understand why short sellers are the bad guys. Every transaction needs a buyer and a seller.

[Silverbird]

McCain is right on this one, I think that Chairman Cox has just been sleeping in his office - isn't the SEC supposed to regulate markets??? It's like the SEC didn't enforce regulations and allowed the market to build a wall with holes, and now we have Berneke and Paulson putting up wallpaper.

[RGP22407]

Heavy-handed hedge funds are part of the problem.

Forced sales of stock by retail investors under undue duress caused by market manipulation are not moral or legal.

It's like being an E-3 in poker game against NCOs where there is a $20 ante and no raise limits.

Gary

[James48843]

News Flash- SEC may ban ALL short selling-not just "naked short selling". Late night meeting going on tonight!


SEC Plans to Temporarily Ban Short-Selling
By KARA SCANNELL and DEBORAH SOLOMONArticle

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12217823... (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178234612954617.html?mod=googlenews_wsj)

WASHINGTON -- The Securities and Exchange Commission took its most aggressive assault against bearish stock bets by stating its intention to issue a temporary ban on short-selling.

SEC Chairman Christopher Cox briefed Congress late Thursday of the agency's intention to take the extraordinary step of interfering with the market's regular functioning. Short-selling is a trading strategy of selling borrowed stock in hopes it falls and can be repurchased at a lower price.

It's unclear if the SEC's intention has been approved by the commissioners, which is required, and whether which stocks are covered or for how long it will be in effect. Earlier this summer, the SEC moved to restrict certain short-selling practices for 29 days, covering 19 financial stocks.

Thursday, the U.K.'s Financial Services Authority said it would ban short selling in financial stocks until January. The FSA said it would review the effect of the ban each month. The FSA also announced additional disclosure requirements from hedge funds of short-sales if a certain threshold is met.

The SEC's decision comes amid increasing concern that short-sellers are abusing legal trading strategies to drive financial stocks lower. Since the near-collapse of Bear Stearns & Cos. in March, regulators have been looking into a combination of short-sales and false rumors are part of the problem.

U.K. Treasury Chief Alistair Darling, who was involved in the FSA's decision, said in a statement Thursday, he welcomed the FSA's "decisive action." He said in current market conditions it was in the "interests of financial stability."

In a short sale, a trader sells borrowed stock, hoping it will fall in price and can be repurchased later at a profit.

The pressure to step up efforts against short-selling gathered steam since last weekend when Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. steered toward bankruptcy and Merrill Lynch & Co looked for a buyer. Wall Street executives urged Mr. Cox to take steps to slow the sell-off, which they believe is triggered by heavy short selling.

Investment banks are particularly vulnerable to low stock prices as it hurts their ability to raise capital to secure their funding.

The SEC sped up its rule-making and on Wednesday the SEC announced three trading rules that were aimed at curbing abusive short selling. That was followed late Wednesday night with intentions to require hedge funds to disclose more information about their short positions.

Write to Kara Scannell at kara.scannell@wsj.com and Deborah Solomon at deborah.solomon@wsj.com

[Show-me]

Our country is doomed. If this does not proof that the privileged few control every aspect of policy nothing will.

[James48843]

From the AP:



SEC bans short-selling
3 minutes ago



The Securities and Exchange Commission took the dramatic step early Friday of temporarily banning the routine practice of betting against company stocks.

The move, announced on the agency's Web site, may well be unprecedented and a reflection of regulators' concern about the widening scope of the financial crisis as entreaties come from all quarters to stem a swarm of short-selling.

In the announcement, the commission said it was acting in concert with the U.K. Financial Services Authority in taking emergency action to "prohibit short selling in financial companies" to protect the integrity of the securities market and boost investor confidence.

"The commission is committed to using every weapon in its arsenal to combat market manipulation that threatens investors and capital markets," SEC chairman Christopher Cox said in a statement. "The emergency order temporarily banning short-selling of financial stocks will restore equilibrium to markets."

The move, he said, would not be necessary in a well-functioning market and is only a temporary step that is part of the actions being taken by the Federal Reserve, the Treasury and Congress.

A recent wave of the market maneuvers — where traders seek to profit by selling unowned shares of companies in the anticipation their prices will drop — has been blamed in part for the demise of venerable investment firm Lehman Brothers and other big companies.

Cox, Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke held a closed-door meeting Thursday night with members of Congress.

The SEC said its action calls a time-out to aggressive short-selling in financial stocks and said it would consider measures to address short-selling in other publicly traded companies.

Short-selling, in a normal market, contributes to efficiency while adding liquidity to the markets. But now, the SEC said, it appears that "unbridled" short-selling was contributing to the sudden price declines in the securities of financial institutions.

On Wednesday, New York Sens. Charles Schumer and Hillary Clinton, both Democrats, appealed to the SEC for such a temporary ban, saying the watchdog agency "has the power to take a temporary but important step to help restore a measure of stability to our financial markets."

The California Public Employees' Retirement System, the nation's largest pension fund, said that starting Thursday it is no longer lending out shares of Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and Morgan Stanley, joining a growing number of public pension funds that are attempting to curb short-selling of two investment banks' stocks

[Gumby]

Let's see- these financial companies have been "cookin the books" for years and now when they are paying for their actions they get a restraining order from the government.

Notice they specifically relate to financial companies. They don't give squat about companies other than those on Wall Street.:mad:

[James48843]

From the SEC website this morning:


SEC Halts Short Selling of Financial Stocks to Protect Investors and Markets

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
2008-211

Commission Also Takes Steps to Increase Market Transparency and Liquidity

Washington, D.C., Sept. 19, 2008 — The Securities and Exchange Commission, acting in concert with the U.K. Financial Services Authority, today took temporary emergency action to prohibit short selling in financial companies to protect the integrity and quality of the securities market and strengthen investor confidence. The U.K. FSA took similar action yesterday.
Additional Materials


Emergency Order, Release No. 34-58592.pdf (http://www.sec.gov/rules/other/2008/34-58592.pdf)
Emergency Order, Release No. 34-58591.pdf (http://www.sec.gov/rules/other/2008/34-58591.pdf)
Emergency Order, Release No. 34-58588.pdf (http://www.sec.gov/rules/other/2008/34-58588.pdf)
Form SH (http://www.sec.gov/about/forms/formsh.pdf)
Form SH Instructions (http://www.sec.gov/about/forms/formsh_instructions.pdf)
The Commission’s action will apply to the securities of 799 financial companies. The action is immediately effective.


SEC Chairman Christopher Cox said, “The Commission is committed to using every weapon in its arsenal to combat market manipulation that threatens investors and capital markets. The emergency order temporarily banning short selling of financial stocks will restore equilibrium to markets. This action, which would not be necessary in a well-functioning market, is temporary in nature and part of the comprehensive set of steps being taken by the Federal Reserve, the Treasury, and the Congress.”

Today’s decisive SEC action calls a time-out to aggressive short selling in financial institution stocks, because of the essential link between their stock price and confidence in the institution. The Commission will continue to consider measures to address short selling concerns in other publicly traded companies.

Under normal market conditions, short selling contributes to price efficiency and adds liquidity to the markets. At present, it appears that unbridled short selling is contributing to the recent, sudden price declines in the securities of financial institutions unrelated to true price valuation. Financial institutions are particularly vulnerable to this crisis of confidence and panic selling because they depend on the confidence of their trading counterparties in the conduct of their core business.

Given the importance of confidence in financial markets, today’s action halts short selling in 799 financial institutions. The SEC’s emergency order, pursuant to its authority in Section 12(k)(2) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, will be immediately effective and will terminate at 11:59 p.m. ET on October 2, 2008. The Commission may extend the order beyond 10 days if it deems an extension necessary in the public interest and for the protection of investors, but will not extend the order for more than 30 calendar days in total duration.

The Commission notes today’s similar announcement by the U.K. FSA. The SEC and FSA are consulting on an ongoing basis with regard to short selling matters and will continue to cooperate in carrying out regulatory actions.


The Commission also has taken the following steps to address the recent market conditions:

Temporarily requiring that institutional money managers report their new short sales of certain publicly traded securities. These money managers are already required to report their long positions in these securities.


Temporarily easing restrictions on the ability of securities issuers to re-purchase their securities. This change will give issuers more flexibility to buy back their securities, and help restore liquidity during this period of unusual and extraordinary market volatility.
http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2008/2008-211.htm

[Show-me]

I guess SKF is a nontradable ETF now.:mad:

This is getting out of hand, now we are being label the United Socialist States of America on the world media. We just keep digging ourselves deeper in the hole.

When the government starts to own everything, is that kind of what communism is.

Let the failures burn, quit bailing out everyone. Natural disasters, economic disasters, pension guarantees, FDIC's, health care, "social" security, etc. Turn it all over to the government and we can call ourselves communist.

[nnuut]

If TSP members could Short the Market we could clean up. If I can't they can'T-----GOOD!:nuts:
Might stabilize the market?

[Spaf]

Turn it all over to the government and we can call ourselves communist.

You know you are in trouble when your mail......is addressed.....Dear Comrade......:notrust:

[Show-me]

When this short selling ban is over what will happen?

[Show-me]

Can I short the S&P that is weighted 15% financial?

[Show-me]

Why is SKF still trading premarket?

[Show-me]

I have e-mails into CNBC and ScotTrade.

[James48843]

Can I short the S&P that is weighted 15% financial?


Good point.

What will happen when index funds are shorted, and stocks within those indexes are not permitted to be shorted by these regulations? Will that dratically skew the value of the fund, and make it deviate from the index it is supposed to track?


Hmmm.....


Curiouser and Curiouser

[Show-me]

Just spoke to my broker on the phone and he said "we don't know, we are trying to figure it out". Not a good sign.

[Gumby]

Just spoke to my broker on the phone and he said "we don't know, we are trying to figure it out". Not a good sign.

Will I be able to trade SDS?

[Show-me]

As of now they don't know anything they are pouring over SEC documents to try and figure it out. This is the making of a thermal run away situation. Where you over heat and break down consecutively until it destroys itself.

[Gumby]

As of now they don't know anything they are pouring over SEC documents to try and figure it out. This is the making of a thermal run away situation. Where you over heat and break down consecutively until it destroys itself.


Changing the rules mid-way always hurts someone and generally benefits the ones that change the rules.:(

[Show-me]

Gumby,
Your right and the guys that bought these financial are making a mint off of the shorts. The short covering rally is going to be absolutely huge and then I think the longs will turn it around and sell it off.

All this is is Bernakey and Paulson sticking it to the shorts. They have done it a number of times this past year, right before expiration day. Once they did a emergency rate cut right before the expiration day in premarket.

They are out to kill the shorts, never mind the companies that are being shorted deserve it. It is about transferring money from the shorts to the longs and the long selling before the day is over.

[Gumby]

Gumby,
Your right and the guys that bought these financial are making a mint off of the shorts. The short covering rally is going to be absolutely huge and then I think the longs will turn it around and sell it off.

All this is is Bernakey and Paulson sticking it to the shorts. They have done it a number of times this past year, right before expiration day. Once they did a emergency rate cut right before the expiration day in premarket.

They are out to kill the shorts, never mind the companies that are being shorted deserve it. It is about transferring money from the shorts to the longs and the long selling before the day is over.

You are 100% correct. With options expiring today....the shorts have no choice except to buy this morning. Look for a huge selloff this PM. Billions to be made at shorts expense.

The shorts are trapped. Can't even trade SKF on an options Friday. This looks like a class action suit to me. The government loses and the taxpayers foot the bill.:sick:

[Gumby]

Will I be able to trade SDS?

SDS is trading but the percentage doesn't add up. Must be because of the change in rules of the shorting of financials.:mad:

S&P up 2.5% SDS down 6.3%

[Gumby]

Looks like an insider conspiracy to me:

No shorting of financials on option Friday.
The insiders are smiling all the way to the Bank. Shorts are Trapped big time.

More info (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/sec-bans-short-selling-hundreds/story.aspx?guid=%7BFF3CA343%2D2485%2D4B0C%2DB971%2 D7FBFA0AD4611%7D)

[Show-me]

Just got off the phone with my ST broker and SKF is back in business.

[tsptalk]

Cool. Are you going to short it? :D

Short the short fund. Two negatives do make a positive. Ebb was doing that with SDS (short it). I wondered why he didn't just buy SSO instead.

[Gumby]

Just got off the phone with my ST broker and SKF is back in business.

Down 16% so far. I don't have stones enough to touch this one today.

[Show-me]

I'm out of trades, Tom. I need to wait for my 3 day settlement as I traded in and out within one day. ST will not be happy with me if I do not take a break.

If this pig (financial sector) goes higher I will consider it. Especially when the ban is lifted.

[Show-me]

My other two accounts are lock up too.

[Show-me]

http://www.sec.gov/rules/other/2008/34-58592.pdf

[Show-me]

ProShares Announcement on SKF and SEF

< Back to News (http://www.proshares.com/resources/news)

PRESS RELEASE



Bethesda, MD, September 19, 2008 – Due to the emergency action announced by the Securities and Exchange Commission on September 18, 2008, temporarily prohibiting short sales of shares of certain financial companies, Short Financials ProShares (SEF) and UltraShort Financials ProShares (SKF) are not expected to accept orders from Authorized Participants to create shares until further notice. Unless notified otherwise, shares will be available for redemption by Authorized Participants as normal. The shares of these ProShares are expected to trade in the financial markets today, but may trade at prices that are not in line with their intraday indicative values.



Media contact:
Tucker Hewes, Hewes Communications, Inc., (212) 207-9451, tucker@hewescomm.com

Sep 19, 2008

[Silverbird]

Sigh, the problem is naked shorting, not all shorting. Don't they know streaking is illegal and wearing shorts is ok, especially if the weather's hot? :suspicious:

[Show-me]

The main point IMO is that if the companies stock is strong then the shorting makes no difference. Why punish the shorts because the companies have failed miserably to product a strong company with a strong reputation and a stock price that reflects that.

This is nothing more that covering the asses of companies that screwed up. And, the executives and board members are probably all giving each other high fives and pats on the back because they are successfully about to transfer all of the bad paper to the backs of the taxpayers.

BONUSES ALL AROUND!!!!

[Show-me]

I'm slowly becoming a full fledge Democrat when it comes to big business.

Privatized profits and socialized bail outs. Brilliant!

[James48843]

I'm slowly becoming a full fledge Democrat when it comes to big business.

Privatized profits and socialized bail outs. Brilliant!

Aaahhh.

Welcome, Grasshopper.

Snatch this pebble from my hand.

When you can, it is time for you to go....

WCyJRXvPNRo

[Silverbird]

Uh...the Democrats? How about unfettered Business is great, and get rid of regulations, then turn around and close the Shorting barn? That's the Admin, and they ain't Democrats.

[Show-me]

How about the free market being free and unregulated. Worthless companies go to zero and smart small companies come in and buy them up cheap.

[Show-me]

How about the free market being free and unregulated. Worthless companies go to zero and smart small companies come in and buy them up cheap.

Now the problem with this statement is the Rep. let them run free and they, wall street, screwed it up royally. Now they are begging the "regulators" to save them for the good of the country. They gave them the rope and now they have hung themselves with it at the taxpayer expense.

[BIGBULLY]

Well said Show-me. This is not a Washington's rescue plan... it's take from the rich and give to the poor, AGAIN!!! Tax payers to the rescue! Of course you now who pays the most. The tax system is one big income redistribution scheme, aside from its primary purpose to finance protection of our land. I say let those gambles die off and let a new reformation begin. Shake out the lot of them, bad business (corruption), such as the ENRON, WOLRDCOM, ANDERSON who cooked the books, etc...The corporate world needs a really good bath. It stinks to high heavens. Capitalism can do better!! It's the best system in a free society. Let FREEDOM ring!!

[Birchtree]

Remember we are now back stopping the Great Society of the 1960s as well as the 1965 civil rights act.

[Silverbird]

I just hope us of the "no name:toung:" generation of the 70's and those coming after us don't end up with NO money from our payments into Social Security. "It's our money" and "Privatize" sound great until you remember that Social Security is a LIFO (last in, first out) system, so if one generation gets to cash out they will take the next generation's contributions to do it.:notrust: