Personal responsibility & Hurricanes

[JTH]

I was watching the news last night. There was an old lady complaining how she wasn't told she would be flying out, and she was thinking she would be bused out to a shelter within the state. She was very upset and didn't hold back that fact.

The whole time I was hearing this lady's rant, I was thinking to myself "listen lady we don't owe you anything so shut-up and color". Now before anybody goes off on me, let me say that with the exception of my father and I, my entire family lives in Louisiana along I-10, so all of them will be affected, including my Uncle who lives in New Orleans.

The federal government is spending billions of our tax paying dollars trying to salvage a city that shouldn't have been built in the first place. Is it fair for someone who lives in Kansas to flip the bill for someone in Louisiana? If lightning strikes my house and it burns down, do I expect the government to give me a FEMA trailer?

I say all of this because it concerns me how this Nation has changed it's views and gone further into a socialist society. The more of a role we allow the government to play in our lives, the more control they will have over us and the less freedom we will have.

Now we've set a president. People may not realize it, but we've taken a huge step towards Socialism. Even the once Conservative republicans have shifted to the center.

I'd be curios to know what y'all think about all of this?

[Callme_CO]

If this is Katrina part 2 and people refuse to leave then let them answer to who they answer too. I'm tired of the mentality of this country as a whole. "why should i have to leave"....oh i don't know, maybe becuase a big effin storm is going to hit. But hey if you want to take that clue and leave then fine....don't come crying that the government failed you. Don't get me wrong the government screwed the pooch 3 years ago but they've had their warning both by mother nature and by the government. MHO is that it would be irrisponsible, as a parent, if i rebuilt my house in an area that is prone to such storms. Now you can't excape storms anywhere you go. But i think that you have to accept a bit of personal responsibility in this. I love my home town. I miss it every day, but i'd be damned if I condemned my wife and son to the same fate every few years over hometown pride. Pride is a deadly sin, by the way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins#Pride_.28Latin.2C_superbia.29

Now before people come after me for this i do respect human life, and peoples personal beliefs...this is just my own personal beliefs.

[luv2read]

Can we stop with the put downs of New Orleans. Please. With that "shouldn't have been built in the first place" reasoning - Los Angeles, all those multi-million dollar home on the west coast where there are earthquakes, mudslides and huge fires, in Florida, Texas, the rest of the Gulf Coast and East Coast, places like the Hamptons, etc. where hurricanes hit (New Orleans is NOT the only coastal city that gets hit - Florida gets hit repeatedly and gets federal aid every time), and all those towns in the midwest that just flooded "shouldn't have been built to begin with" either. New Orleans is one of the oldest cities in the USA and it was settled for a reason, it was the key gateway to the country at the time via the Mississippi River. The country's leaders saw its strategic and economic value and negotiated the Louisiana Purchase. The original settlement (French Quarter) is on high ground at the river and in fact did NOT flood during Katrina nor any other storms during the last 100 years. The floods are a combination of man-made and natural disasters as a result of levees, access canals, sinkage, wetlands erosion and saltwater intrusion. The value of New Orleans hasn't changed, the city is still strategically located but for a different reason - oil and gas exploration and development and an important port. Unfortunately a very small segment of the population gave it a black eye during Katrina and the rest of the country is having difficulty letting go of that image.

Is it fair for someone in Louisiana to foot the bill for some huge AG conglomerate in Kansas to make millions off farm subsidies? The government has a responsibility to protect its citizens. The levees were faulty, MRGO was a mistake, the government knew it (google the studies on ACE site dating back to 1948 pre-Betsy), but led everyone to believe they were "safe" if they were inside the levee protection system. So yes, until the government corrects its mistakes made with the billions it spent on faulty levees, they have a responsibility to help those unable to get themselves out of harms way to get the hell out.

[JTH]

I have no problem with people choosing to live where they want. The state of Louisana elected a better governer, but it's too bad the city of New Orleans re-elected the same mayor who miserable failed them. This is the same mayor who wanted to rebuild a chocolate city. :cool: I think we have every right to be mad at them, afterall they are spending our money.

I also think it's unfortunate that they estimate 20-30% of the people stayed behind...

[Buster]

JTH..I couldn't have said it better..

I'm all for helping our neighbors..Oklahoma Helps out everytime there is a disaster somewhere..but I also think you have to do a little help yourself too, if you are physically able...and I don't mean looting a Sears and taking TVs and Xboxes when power is out either.

[luv2read]

I have no problem with people choosing to live where they want.
That is NOT what you said and NOT what I objected to.


The federal government is spending billions of our tax paying dollars trying to salvage a city that shouldn't have been built in the first place.
THAT is offensive and I stand by what I said. None of the other coastal cities, or midwest cities that flooded this year should have been built, either.

Read your history. If New Orleans hadn't been built, the interior of this country would never have been part of the United States. New Orleans was the reason for the Louisiana Purchase.

[JTH]

That is NOT what you said and NOT what I objected to.


THAT is offensive and I stand by what I said. None of the other coastal cities, or midwest cities that flooded this year should have been built, either.

Read your history. If New Orleans hadn't been built, the interior of this country would never have been part of the United States. New Orleans was the reason for the Louisiana Purchase.

I'm well aware of the rich culture New Orleans has, I've spent many a summer walking down the narrow streets embedded with art, music, and food. There isn't another city in the world that has it's rich character. I'm also aware of the strategic importance of New Orleans and the Mississippi river for our nations past, present, and future. I'm not trying to offend anyone here, I'm just stating the obvious.

The old part of the city was built on higher ground, and most of it didn't flood last time. But unfortunately, over time this city expanded beyond it's capabilities. Many of the poorer people live in the lower parts of the city. hence the reason they received the most damage. And guess what, they don't pay taxes. But that's ok, we can keep bailing them out and they can keep moving back. We'll just keep throwing our money and more FEMA trailers down the drain.

It will be a permanent solution, until the next Hurricane comes. If we want to read our history, then we should know that Mother Nature always wins. The U.S government has not given the resources nor the time needed to rebuild this city. It's been 3 years and we still haven't repaired the damage from last time.

And let's not forget, the state of Louisiana doesn't exactly have a thriving economy when you take away the oil, casinos, and alcohol. They don't have the money to continue rebuilding therefore the federal government will have to step in.

The only thing sadder then all of this is that we've spent more money on the war in Iraq, then we have here at home for our own people. This Nation can fix all of New Orleans problems and make it permanent. But if we're not going to go all in (and we haven't) then we shouldn't bother with bubblegum and band aids. :cool:

[JTH]

I wanted the add one more thing. Here is a good historical representation of what happened to New Orleans during Katrina. It's very well done.

http://www.nola.com/katrina/graphics/flashflood.swf

[rokid]

The whole time I was hearing this lady's rant, I was thinking to myself "listen lady we don't owe you anything so shut-up and color".

"Whoever has earthly possessions and notices a brother in need and yet withholds his compassion from him, how can the love of God be present in him?" John 3:17

You can find similar verses in the Old Testament. Just Google "poor" and "bible".----Jim

[luv2read]

And let's not forget, the state of Louisiana doesn't exactly have a thriving economy when you take away the oil, casinos, and alcohol. They don't have the money to continue rebuilding therefore the federal government will have to step in.

The only thing sadder then all of this is that we've spent more money on the war in Iraq, then we have here at home for our own people. This Nation can fix all of New Orleans problems and make it permanent. But if we're not going to go all in (and we haven't) then we shouldn't bother with bubblegum and band aids. :cool:Louisiana, especially New Orleans, has a thriving tourism industry and one of the largest, busiest and most important ports in the nation. Let's not forget, Florida doesn't have much of an economy if you take away retirement and tourism. Florida coastal cities have been hit time after time and rebuild and I don't hear anyone saying it shouldn't happen. The same can be said of most coastal communities. Gee, take the oil industry and port away from Houston, and it has nothing, either. Let us not forget the Mississippi gulf coast either...I suppose that "should never have been built" either, and should be denied federal funds to rebuild. They were not "sheltered" behind faulty levees, they were right there out there on the beach, just like Florida resort communities. Why is there no complaining about Florida, Alabama, Texas, Mississippi rebuilding after storms? The rest of the country has a warped view of New Orleans since Katrina because of the despicable actions of a very small segment of its population that took advantage of an unfortunate situation. Disasters bring out the best and worst in people; the media chose to show the worst rather than the best...the people who were out rescuing others and/or stranded animals.

And I agree with you completely about what you have said about Iraq. It's time to get out of there. The billions spent should have been spent in the USA on schools, infrastructure, the power grid, roads, and securing our borders. The "Hurricane Betsy Act" was passed in 1966-67; it mandated levee protection for the New Orleans area and OTHER cities endangered by flooding (not just in Louisiana), and funds were appropriated for it. Every year, the funds were shifted to other accounts and 50 years later the system still isn't complete. New Orleans isn't the only city dependent on levees for survival, as was recently seen in the midwest, nor is it the only city with defective levees. The information is readily available on the Corps of Engineers website and that agency is currently doing a survey/study of ALL levees and dams. There have been a number of dam failures in recent years but because there was no major flooding of populated areas the media didn't cover it. If the government is going to build levees to facilitate development and allow developers to drain and fill wetlands, then tell citizens they are "safe" behind said levees, then it also has to make good on that when their levees fail.

New Orleans was here before levees were ever thought of. MRGO caused the flooding during Betsy. THAT was a manmade disaster, not a natural one. Katrina flooded the city because of MRGO and the levees failed. THAT was a manmade disaster. If MRGO had never been dug at the urging of business interests, the surge would not have had the same effect. Greed, not money, is the root of all evil.

[Miss_Piggy]

The words "such hubris" came to my mind as I read this thread.
Thanks for putting into words my sentiments that I seem unable to do at times as diplomatically as both of you did.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj217/mptsp/smileys/congrats/utheman.gif & http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj217/mptsp/smileys/congrats/bravo2.gif luv2read and rokid

[luv2read]

Interesting animation on levees, subsidence, wetlands. The Rise and Disappearance of Southeast Louisiana.

http://www.nola.com/speced/lastchance/multimedia/flash.ssf?flashlandloss1.swf (http://www.nola.com/speced/lastchance/multimedia/flash.ssf?flashlandloss1.swf)

[Frixxxx]

Interesting animation on levees, subsidence, wetlands. The Rise and Disappearance of Southeast Louisiana.

http://www.nola.com/speced/lastchance/multimedia/flash.ssf?flashlandloss1.swf (http://www.nola.com/speced/lastchance/multimedia/flash.ssf?flashlandloss1.swf)


Nice explanation of their situation.

Good to see you back L2R:cool:

[jimijr]

The Culture of Calamity: Disaster and the Making of Modern America
by Kevin Rozario

Modern America: Disaster In The Making?, March 4, 2008

This is re-drafting of Dr Rozario's PhD thesis, he tells us. As such it strives to be complete and there is more here than I expected. In fact it is subversive. Cool!

The author draws a line that seems unlikely at first. He tracks the growth of our emergency management system from the colonial days through the San Francisco earthquake and fire, to 9-11 and Katrina. An important stop along the way is the period immediately after WWII when our civil defense requirements suddenly mushroomed, heh.

He shows that with each disaster, new powers were assumed by the central government. At first, state authorities were reluctant even to accept federal assistance because of the strings attached. Sometimes they had good reason, just look at the 1927 flood: In the delta region they were conscripting black labor and keeping them on the levees at gunpoint. Who wants government agents poking around in situations like that?

Gradually the national government has taken over disaster planning. A big part of it stems from the civil defense requirements first of the cold war and now of the war on terror. with these responsibilities has come authority. The president has the power to declare an emergency, suspend the government and rule by executive authority. He has the apparatus in the Dept of Homeland Security and the Patriot Act, etc.

In other words we have sacrificed a great deal of our freedom for the sake of security. Unfortunately, 9-11 and Katrina showed that this security is sort of thin and not to be relied upon. Katrina gave the impression that there were too few lifeboats and the people in charge didn't know what they're doing -- New Orleans struck an iceberg and went down like the Titanic.

Past disasters have paved the way for this fiasco and future disasters will probably make it worse. In other words I am now a believer in Dr Rozario's thesis. He has shown us a new way of looking at these things.

Which, he proves, is also a national pasttime. We love to watch disasters so long as we are safe personally. The 24/7 news coverage now in place makes it all so easy. We can even watch our army go to war live and in color. When a hurricane hits someplace we can be certain that Jim Cantore will be there! And we do watch, we can't help it.

You can see why I say there is more to this book than I expected. I witheld a 5th star because it could have used some tables and graphs and some maps. I no longer have the book so I cannot check the acknowledgements to see who supported his research. Probably it was departmental funds from within the university where he was getting his degree. I doubt that money originated in the Dept of Defense or DHS!