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tsptalk
08-29-2008, 09:01 AM
The rumor is that Sarah Palin of Alaska could be McCain's choice for VP. I thought he needed an economics guy like Romney, but a female NRA member could be a good strategy - or a big mistake. He is sure rolling the dice.

We'll either have an African Amercan as president, or a female VP. We've come a long way, baby!

nnuut
08-29-2008, 09:08 AM
The rumor is that Sarah Palin of Alaska could be McCain's choice for VP. I thought he needed an economics guy like Romney, but a female NRA member could be a good strategy - or a big mistake. He is sure rolling the dice.

We'll either have an African Amercan as president, or a female VP. We've come a long way, baby!

Saw a video she put together explaining the ANWAR Oil drilling problem. She is a straight shooter, I like her, smart lady, pulls no punches. I think Romney should be the one, might be able to help with our economic problems.:worried:

tsptalk
08-29-2008, 09:13 AM
I like what I'm hearing about her.

JTH
08-29-2008, 09:24 AM
He is sure rolling the dice.

I must admit I'd be surprised if he pics her. Alaska isn't exactly an important state for electoral votes. I do like her though, she's pretty:D, from my home state, and she speaks her mind. Still, I don't think her credentials are up to par. :suspicious:

luv2read
08-29-2008, 09:34 AM
surprise pick but a logical one...Condi Rice.

tsptalk
08-29-2008, 10:31 AM
Condi Rice is too "Bush". The dems would pounce on that.

luv2read
08-29-2008, 10:37 AM
More Bush than McCain? I think she would be a "draw card" for race and gender from the Obama ticket, especially the die-hard Hillary supporters who would rather vote GOP than vote Obama.

sugarandspice
08-29-2008, 10:41 AM
A pandering pick for sure. And what will it get them. Women voters who are undecided?.....Independant voters who own guns? Straight-shooting tough-talking women have to tread very carefully. I dont see a landslide of new voters coming to the Republican side.

JTH
08-29-2008, 10:45 AM
I understand the press will hammer this pick. However, I think they will underestimate her warm spunky personality and sharp wit. I believe she can win over many, once America gets a chance to know her. ;)

luv2read
08-29-2008, 10:48 AM
I understand the press will hammer this pick. However, I think they will underestimate her warm spunky personality and sharp wit. I believe she can win over many, once America gets a chance to know her. ;)
Rice or Palin?

2EASY
08-29-2008, 10:49 AM
Joe Biden is going to eat her alive in a debate. It's over. Mccain picked someone with less experience then Obama.

JTH
08-29-2008, 11:01 AM
Rice or Palin?

Sry, I meant Sarah.

Rice is brilliant, but she has an extremely cold personality, I don't think she'd complement McCain.

JTH
08-29-2008, 11:03 AM
Joe Biden is going to eat her alive in a debate. It's over. Mccain picked someone with less experience then Obama.

Less experience then Obama? I respectfully disagree. As for Biden eating her alive, that is definitely the predominant assumption, but I won't believe it till I see it. ;)

James48843
08-29-2008, 11:17 AM
I just saw an interview she did on C-SPAN last spring.

I can't believe it.

THAT is who McCain picks to be a heart-beat away?


Well, that blows the republican's attack about lack of experience- right out of the water.

I just can't believe who he picks.

He just blew any chance that he had. It's gone. period.

James48843
08-29-2008, 11:22 AM
Less experience then Obama? I respectfully disagree.. ;)


Try this:

Mayor of an Alaskan town of 8,000, two terms. City Council one term same town. Biggest issue during her term was roaming bears coming into town to eat garbage.

NO state legislative experience.

Appointed- not elected- to the Oil and Gas Oversite board in Alaska.

Won election as governor of the state with the smallest population in the U.S. less than two years ago.


I'll recap:

No state legislative experience.
No national legislative experience.
less than one-half of one term as Governor.

luv2read
08-29-2008, 11:25 AM
Try this:

Mayor of an Alaskan town of 8,000, two terms. City Council one term same town. Biggest issue during her term was roaming bears coming into town to eat garbage.

NO state legislative experience.

Appointed- not elected- to the Oil and Gas Oversite board in Alaska.

Won election as governor of the state with the smallest population in the U.S. less than two years ago.


I'll recap:

No state legislative experience.
No national legislative experience.
less than one-half of one term as Governor."Cold" or not, Rice would have been a better pick for a "balanced" ticket. Oh well, Obama picked Biden, and that was a bad one too. He should have picked a seasoned southerner - like JFK did...as much as he and LBJ loathed each other they still saw the necessity.

Frixxxx
08-29-2008, 11:33 AM
Try this:

Mayor of an Alaskan town of 8,000, two terms. City Council one term same town. Biggest issue during her term was roaming bears coming into town to eat garbage.

NO state legislative experience.

Appointed- not elected- to the Oil and Gas Oversite board in Alaska.

Won election as governor of the state with the smallest population in the U.S. less than two years ago.


I'll recap:

No state legislative experience.
No national legislative experience.
less than one-half of one term as Governor.

Maybe this is the type of "grass root" person we need.....The seasoned veterans haven't gotten us very far. Honestly, I would have preffered Romney. But then again, a mother of five, and a journalist/poli sci major is not a lawyer. Cool!:cool:

James48843
08-29-2008, 11:34 AM
A bit about Palin:

"
Palin was a highschool (http://bittenandbound.com/2007/12/26/alaska-governor-sarah-palin-former-miss-alaska-contestant/#) standout basketball player. She played point guard and helped her team to win the State basketball championship in 1982. Two years later she won the title of Miss Wasilla, and went on to compete in the Miss Alaska pageant. She didn’t win the crown but did earn the Miss Congeniality title. She went on to earn a degree in journalism from the University of Idaho.

She served two terms on the Wasilla City Council and two terms as Mayor of Wasilla, the fastest growing city in Alaska. She made a bid for Lt. Governor in 2002 but lost that election. She has earned a reputation of being a bit of a maverick because of accusations she has made against some fellow Republicans for ethics issues.

Some members of the media used Palin’s attractiveness to spin their coverage of her run for governor. She was elected to office in November 2006. In July 2007, Sarah Palin was heralded by the national media as the most popular governor in the United States.

She eats moose burgers and rides snowmobiles and is a lifetime member of the National Rifle Association. Most important of all, the residents of Alaska believe in her ability to lead. Palin has a bright future and is young enough to be able to set her sights as high as she likes. We’ll be watching this woman and will be anticipating even greater things in her future.





http://bittenandbound.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/governor-palin-2006-official-photo.jpg





Well, she eats moose burgers and rides snowmobiles. Played basketball, and was a former "Miss Wasilla".

What more could you ask for in a Vice Presidential candidate?

James48843
08-29-2008, 11:36 AM
And her "journalism" career?

She previously did local sports for two TV stations in Anchorage.


Now there are some journalism credentials.

JTH
08-29-2008, 11:58 AM
It will be interesting to see the Dems attack her for her lack of experience considering Obama's lack of credentials. :D

As a VP she will have more experience then Obama.

Son in the military, Pro Guns, Pro Life, Blue Collar husband, small town roots, Washington Outsider, ethics reformer. City Councel Member, Mayor, and Governer.

I think it was an excellent choice. McCain is shoring up his conservative base, increasing his odds of snagging the Clintonites.

Guest2
08-29-2008, 12:04 PM
Palin just completed her speech. I must say, she certainly did well.
McCain can't hold a torch to her public speaking capabilities. But
McCain certainly knew what he was doing with this political decision.
Kudos to Palin for including Clinton in appreciation and turning the
message into a call to arms for female voters. I won't get wrapped
up with all the inexperience talk that is sure to dominate the media.
I WANT TO HEAR ISSUES,,,,SOLUTIONS,,,,AND SEE THE DEBATES.
after that, they can kiss all the babies they want !

Frixxxx
08-29-2008, 12:10 PM
Palin just completed her speech. I must say, she certainly did well.
McCain can't hold a torch to her public speaking capabilities. But
McCain certainly knew what he was doing with this political decision.
Kudos to Palin for including Clinton in appreciation and turning the
message into a call to arms for female voters. I won't get wrapped
up with all the inexperience talk that is sure to dominate the media.
I WANT TO HEAR ISSUES,,,,SOLUTIONS,,,,AND SEE THE DEBATES.
after that, they can kiss all the babies they want !


Missed the speech, I know I will see it tonight on the news. I agree, I want to hear solutions to the issues. Final. :cool:

Note to James...I wasn't saying anything about a career in journalism, just her education credentials. I know it is not a normal VP resume, but it shows a freshness we haven't seen before.

Stoplight
08-29-2008, 12:25 PM
Let’s see....

Both tickets have a "youngster"/inexperienced candidate

Both tickets have a "Washington insider" who has been around DC politics a long time, disgusting the "throw the bums out" guys

Both tickets have an "unusual" (even ground-breaking) candidate (woman/black)

Gee....maybe people will actually have to focus on the "issues" and decide where their personal values lie, rather than rely on the political machine and/or the media.

I think Palin sounded good today....I finally feel the stirrings of some actual interest in this election season !

Stoplight...

James48843
08-29-2008, 12:47 PM
What a WEIRD election cycle.

No?

luv2read
08-29-2008, 01:03 PM
Well, she eats moose burgers and rides snowmobiles. Played basketball, and was a former "Miss Wasilla".


What more could you ask for in a Vice Presidential candidate?

I think she's better qualified than W was when he was "convinced" to make a run for the presidency...remember he didn't want it...at least that was the big spin.

And maybe she's the GOP version of Pelosi...just younger.

Steadygain
08-29-2008, 01:19 PM
http://bittenandbound.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/governor-palin-2006-official-photo.jpg



BEAUTIFUL!!!

Thanks James. She reminds me of "my Sarah".

Oh my gosh - at a glance "She's got the right wiring"

JTH
08-29-2008, 01:23 PM
I have to admit, there is nothing hotter then a smart chick!
The glasses give her that hot librarian look :cheesy:

2EASY
08-29-2008, 01:42 PM
I hear she hunts....hopefully better than Cheney:D

XL-entLady
08-29-2008, 02:26 PM
Well, she eats moose burgers and rides snowmobiles. Played basketball, and was a former "Miss Wasilla".

Hey, moose burgers are high-protein, low-fat, and taste good! And as a former wearer of a sash and tiara myself, I would posit that one can be a former Miss _____ and still have an IQ larger than one's shoe size. :laugh::laugh:

Okay, so I was hoping McCain would choose Romney because of his economic expertise. But this choice works for me, I suppose. I'm still voting for Obama, but if McCain wins it won't make me wish for a seppuku sword now. ;)

Lady

Birchtree
08-29-2008, 02:47 PM
Sarah Palin actually has more executive experience than Nobama. If I were Joe Biden I'd tread very carefully during the debates - this one won't cry. But I did see a lot of cry babies last night. Today it looked like every kid old enough to vote from Dayton was in attendance for the rally - probably had more people there than were in attendance last night. I'm fond of saying there aren't enough college professors, blacks, gays, pedos, or transvestites in this country to put Nobama over the top.

CountryBoy
08-29-2008, 02:58 PM
Sarah Palin actually has more executive experience than Nobama. If I were Joe Biden I'd tread very carefully during the debates - this one won't cry. But I did see a lot of cry babies last night. Today it looked like every kid old enough to vote from Dayton was in attendance for the rally - probably had more people there than were in attendance last night. I'm fond of saying there aren't enough college professors, blacks, gays, pedos, or transvestites in this country to put Nobama over the top.

Don't forget socialist in your list, but they could easily be lumped in with the college professors. Shoot she's worth a 5 point bump on looks alone :nuts: and her resume is much better than Osama's, she actually had a job and turned down pork barrel money. :D

Ya'll have a good 3 day weekend,
Cb

ChemEng
08-29-2008, 03:01 PM
Let me get this straight--when this presidential campaign season was getting started in Fall 06, she was a mayor of a town of 8,000 people?

Silverbird
08-29-2008, 03:19 PM
This is a ceremonial VP. A woman with 5 kids in a Drill Oil State. McCain has made his views obvious through this selection. Style, there, depends if the style goes over well. Substance, remains to be seen. I'm leery now with people below refering to her looks as being something to care about. Are we going to start on the cookie recipies again?:toung:

CountryBoy
08-29-2008, 03:21 PM
Let me get this straight--when this presidential campaign season was getting started in Fall 06, she was a mayor of a town of 8,000 people?

Very True Chem Eng,

But I'll take a person who's been governor for 2 years, than someone who has only spent 142 days actually sitting in the chamber playing at Senator, he's been running for president almost from the beginning and yeah she doesn't have a big fat resume that you'd want in a president, but it'll do for a VP. :) And I'd take a governor of a state over a first term junior senator anytime, but we all have different values when selecting a leader so each his own.

Have a good one and congrats on the PE,

CB

Callme_CO
08-29-2008, 03:22 PM
my view is that our country has been running on fumes with the experienced politicians. I think maybe she can ruffle some feathers. Light a spark under McCain's ass. I like McCain. I respect McCain. But i've yet to see the man truely get excited about anything. If was am to vote this year it will be McCain. I just wish he got excited from time to time.

JTH
08-29-2008, 03:53 PM
I'm leery now with people below refering to her looks as being something to care about. Are we going to start on the cookie recipies again?:toung:

Hey now I never said I cared about her looks, I just said I thought she was hot... :cheesy:

I hope you don't think I'd cast a vote for Paris Hilton? :D

James48843
08-29-2008, 08:32 PM
Some more info about Palin:

This interview, with Alaska Business Monthly in 2007. Now, this was at the time that "the surge" was about to begin, and her son enlisted in the military.

You would think that as Commander in Chief of her state's National Guard forces, and especially also as a military mother, she would be "up to speed" in following events in Iraq, no?

"Palin: I've been so focused on state government, I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq."


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


A reader has found some evidence (http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-6482074/Gov-Sarah-Palin-speaks-out.html) that she has thought about foreign policy at some point in her 44 years. Drum roll, please:
Alaska Business Monthly: We've lost a lot of Alaska's military members to the war in Iraq. How do you feel about sending more troops into battle, as President Bush is suggesting?


Palin: I've been so focused on state government, I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq. I heard on the news about the new deployments, and while I support our president, Condoleezza Rice and the administration, I want to know that we have an exit plan in place; I want assurances that we are doing all we can to keep our troops safe. Every life lost is such a tragedy. I am very, very proud of the troops we have in Alaska, those fighting overseas for our freedoms, and the families here who are making so many sacrifices.
She heard about the surge, McCain's campaign centerpiece, on the news. I wonder- Does she still favor an exit plan?

clester
08-30-2008, 06:37 AM
People are tired of the same old "experienced" politician. I know I am.

James48843
08-30-2008, 06:50 AM
Investigation to begin into whether
Governor Sarah Palin abused her power in firing Public Safety
Commissioner Walt Monegan



By Corey Allen-Young, CBS 11 News Reporter

Article Last Updated: 07/28/2008 06:49:51 PM AKDT

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site163/2008/0707/20080707_085521_palin5%20copy_200.jpg (http://www.ktva.com/portlet/article/html/imageDisplay.jsp?contentItemRelationshipId=2038438 )



Lawmakers will hire someone within a week to investigate whether Governor Sarah Palin abused her power in firing Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan. The legislative council approved 100,000 dollars for the investigation that will find out whether Palin was angry at Monegan for not firing an Alaska State Trooper who went through a messy divorce with Palin's sister.

On Monday afternoon, the Joint Legislative Council, filled with Republicans and Democrats, voted 12 to 0 to formally call for an investigation against Governor Palin in a mannerthat they are stressingwill be unbiased and done in a timely fashion.


Legislators approved hiring a special investigator to look into the controversial firing of former Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan.

Monegan was fired two weeks ago without explanation and has said he was pressured by the governor and her staff to fire a trooper who was once married to Palin's sister.

Accusations have risen that Monegan was fired for his refusal to fire trooper Michael Wooten. The council's intent is to investigate the circumstances and events surrounding the termination of Monegan and potential abuses of power and improper action by the Governor and her administration.


"It is the intent of the legislative council that the investigation be professional, unbiased, independent, objective, and conducted at arms length from the political process," said, Senator Kim Elton, a Democrat from Juneau.


The council's intent is to investigate the circumstances and events surrounding the termination of Monegan and potential abuses of power and improper action by the governor and her administration.


"I think what it really gets down to is after the comma, add potential abuses of power and improper actions is really what we are looking at or at least proposing to look at?" said Representative John Harris, a Republican from Valdez.


Governor Palin has denied the accusations, saying she replaced Monegan
http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site163/2008/0728/20080728_084754_governor%20investigation3%20copy_2 00.jpg (http://www.ktva.com/portlet/article/html/imageDisplay.jsp?contentItemRelationshipId=2038454 )Courtesy, KTOO-TV


to go in a new direction. And although she doesn't think an investigation is needed, she welcomes the questions.

The council went through a detailed meeting to make sure the process is done in a timely manner with accurate results.


"We will get from this is," said Senator Hollis French, a Democrat from Anchorage, "no evidence of wrong doing, some evidence of wrong doing, clear evidence of wrong doing, that will come back to us."


"At that point the body has to make the decision: 'Is this evidence strong enough to proceed on or not?'"


"I think it should be made very clear because there have been conversations about personnel matters that the issues really that we are dealing with here are not the termination of the public
http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site163/2008/0728/20080728_084856_governor%20investigation%20copy_20 0.jpg (http://www.ktva.com/portlet/article/html/imageDisplay.jsp?contentItemRelationshipId=2038455 )Courtesy, KTOO-TV


safety commissioner," said Harris.

Legislators hope that during this investigation that the politics are left out of the mix, which can be hard for government officials.


"What really remains is the most significant hurdle," said Representative Jay Ramras, a Republican from Fairbanks. "Are those professionals going to feel compelled to be subpoenaed before they will speak candidly about what they know?"


Senator French is the Senate Judiciary Committee chairman and is in charge of hiring the investigator. He says he has a short list of candidates and that the investigation should be finished within a few months.
To contact Corey, call 907-273-3186.
http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site163/2008/0412/20080412_043721_NewsTips.jpg

Show-me
08-30-2008, 08:13 AM
Oh please! I have been off the grid since I got out of school yesterday afternoon. Gov. Palin is as qualified as any Chicago born and breed politician except there is no cloak of illegal activity or undesirable connections.

You want change, well here it is. You want to beat her up because of her experience level, then all you are doing is making a great argument for electing McCain instead of Obama.

IMO, she is what this Country needs. Some one fresh, smart, family orientated, not afraid to cut the budget, and not connected to Chicago politics.

luv2read
08-30-2008, 08:17 AM
you want change, well here it is. You want to beat her up because of her experience level, then all you are doing is making a great argument for electing mccain instead of obama.

Imo, she is what this country needs. Some one fresh, smart, family orientated, not afraid to cut the budget, and not connected to chicago politics.
and a woman. :D

Show-me
08-30-2008, 09:18 AM
She's a woman? That's not a qualifier. lol It is a good strategy. I will say that anyone that can have 5 kids and still look that fresh. Damn, what a woman!

Steadygain
08-30-2008, 09:47 AM
James48843,
You would have to know the immense respect I have for you (at least I hope you do). But you are sounding just like Birch, and it's not reflecting well on you. Now of course Birch is someone I honestly love and admire in many ways; in the most central way of money management he has my highest respect and admiration.

But when any of us become so convinced that a Dem, a Black, a Woman, someone too willing to associate with McCain or a Minister...or whatever has "Closed our minds - and forced us into a rigid belief that prevents us from seeing the real possibilities" then our message will always be based on deeply grounded prejudism and resentment.

Despite the whole picture which I admire and respect - and I honestly would never try to change him, because I like the way he is. But to those who truly believe, "I am a born again Repubician..." I would not let up on them - not because I want to antagonize them or create deeper tensions - but because they would be a 1,000 times better off with a more open view and accepting others as they are and having a willingness to see the positive traits - regardless.

Sarah's comments from my perspective reflect a genuinely authentic heart and life - a real person with a Mother's Heart and very much reflecting a woman; so amazingly what you see as "bad" I see as beautiful. She does not sound at all like your typical politician - but she sounds genuine - and that's what I crave for.

Obama has largely stollen my heart for the very same reason. He is the first person ever that I can think of that openly declares "Washington and Politics" are totally screwed up. He is the only one that honestly seems prepared to make a difference and goes on with the convictions that he will do his best to change the garbage and make Washington and Politics something worthwhile. He's not afraid to highlight the huge and real problems.

So if I vote for Obama it is not because he's black or a Dem. If McCain wins I can only hope that Sarah will have a chance to have an influence on him and the decisions he makes. I see her in a similar light as Obama - someone fresh and new who lives from the heart.

At this point all of us need to accept Sarah for who she is and if it comes to pass that she is the first "Woman Vice President" then that's something everyone of us should be willing to embrace.

James48843
08-30-2008, 10:26 AM
Steady- never fear. I enjoy debate.


I for one don't want another politician who uses the power of their office to illegal take personnel actions against people. "The vice-president's office is on the phone" is more than just a campaign slogan to me. I have seen the wrath of political influence adversely affecting otherwise honorable government service to the people of the United States first-hard. Personal use of official position for the purpose of vengeance is illegal in the federal service for a reason. We got away from that-- the political spoils system- in the 1800's for a reason. I don't know if personal use of official position for the purpose of personal vengeance is illegal under Alaska state law. It ought to be.

Did Sarah do that? I don't know.

But I certainly think it is fair game to place the information of Palin's story out there, so that people can be aware of it. Voters deserve to know the whole story. If a civil servant in Alaska was fired, because he refused to fire an Alaskan state trooper that was previously married to the governors sister- well, let's just say the public deserves to know the real story. Truth will set you free.

And on the subject of Iraq, perhaps the single most important topic of this election by a great number of voters- (not all , but certainly a great number), this candidate, whom one would expect- especially since she is the mother of a person service, admits "I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq."

She hasn't focused on it? And she wants to be the person who sits one 73-year old heartbeat away from the red button which could end mankind as we know it?

Sorry, I don't see her as a particularly well qualified candidate for the job.


If the main republican qualification is knowing how to use official power to destroy otherwise good people, then I guess she might fit the bill. They seem to do that a lot.

I was always raised that we try and help one another, not destroy one another.

XL-entLady
08-30-2008, 11:49 AM
....she wants to be the person who sits one 73-year old heartbeat away from the red button which could end mankind as we know it? Sorry, I don't see her as a particularly well qualified candidate for the job.
I've been doing more thinking about Palin's nomination myself, and heavily weighing the fact that, if elected, she would be one person away from the most powerful and complex job on the planet. And then McCain's age becomes a serious factor.

The majority of comments I hear people making are referring to her looks rather than her capabilities. At some point people are going to start thinking about what she might do in the Oval Office rather than what she might be like in the Lincoln Bedroom. And when that time comes, they may start to ask, "Is Palin really the most qualified Republican that McCain could have picked to be his running mate???" Hmm-m-m-m ... maybe not .... :blink:

Lady

XL-entLady
08-30-2008, 12:05 PM
You want change, well here it is. You want to beat her up because of her experience level, then all you are doing is making a great argument for electing McCain instead of Obama.

IMO, she is what this Country needs. Some one fresh, smart, family orientated, not afraid to cut the budget, and not connected to Chicago politics.
I hope you are right, Show-me, because right now it appears 50-50 and pick'em that we might find out!

I would like to gently suggest, however, that I've been able to study Obama's positions on the issues and I think he has proven himself over a very long primary vetting period. Palin was apparently picked after one 20-minute vetting period with McCain. I pray he was looking at her stance on the issues rather than gazing at her other attributes! :worried:

Lady

Show-me
08-30-2008, 12:08 PM
Is it really about the person that holds the job or is it about the people that you surround yourself with.

XL-entLady
08-30-2008, 12:36 PM
Is it really about the person that holds the job or is it about the people that you surround yourself with.
Great point! I found to my sorrow that I was not impressed with the people who surrounded Bush. If Palin has the good sense to surround herself with great people then she'll probably do an excellent job.

Didn't mean to sound so grumpy earlier. :embarrest: As is probably evident by now, the meds aren't quite holding their own with the pain level today .... :o

Lady

JTH
08-30-2008, 02:44 PM
I enjoy debate.

I must admit I'm a bit perplexed by what seems to be your obvious bias against Palin?

I haven't noticed you slamming Biden, but perhaps I missed it some time ago. I'd bet you could find more dirt on him then you could on her. The press almost completely ignored his somewhat racist comments on Indians and Blacks. And let us not forget his first run for the presidency where he was busted for his plagiarizing (thats steeling) of others words during his speeches.

And yes, many people will say she's just a pretty face. Whoopee whoopee doo... My bias for her is based on her Alaskan spirit. I'm from Alaska too, and I can tell you we are an independent minded state full of tough people who know how to get things done without help from the lower 48 states.

Palin has many of the qualities that the old McCain used to have. I miss the old McCain. I was much more impressed with McCain the first time he ran against Bush. This latest version seems somewhat neutered. :suspicious:

luv2read
08-30-2008, 05:23 PM
I've been doing more thinking about Palin's nomination myself, and heavily weighing the fact that, if elected, she would be one person away from the most powerful and complex job on the planet. And then McCain's age becomes a serious factor.

The majority of comments I hear people making are referring to her looks rather than her capabilities. At some point people are going to start thinking about what she might do in the Oval Office rather than what she might be like in the Lincoln Bedroom. And when that time comes, they may start to ask, "Is Palin really the most qualified Republican that McCain could have picked to be his running mate???" Hmm-m-m-m ... maybe not .... :blink:

Lady

She's a woman? That's not a qualifier. lol It is a good strategy. I will say that anyone that can have 5 kids and still look that fresh. Damn, what a woman!

It seems to be the ONLY qualification the testosterone-laden segment of the GOP is interested in...and they are willing to vote for her "attributes.":mad:

JTH
08-30-2008, 05:51 PM
It seems to be the ONLY qualification the testosterone-laden segment of the GOP is interested in...and they are willing to vote for her "attributes.":mad:

And how many women have we seen gush over Obama? He even has his own music videos. :suspicious:

How many times did the press show him with his shirt off?

It's a two-way street :toung:

luv2read
08-30-2008, 07:23 PM
And how many women have we seen gush over Obama? He even has his own music videos. :suspicious:

How many times did the press show him with his shirt off?

It's a two-way street :toung:
I haven't heard a single comment on this MB (or anywhere else for that matter) from a woman saying she was voting for him because of his looks. Because of his race, yes, but not because of his looks.

JTH...I was actually trying to drum home the fact there's more to her than a pretty face, etc....:blink:

JTH
08-30-2008, 09:41 PM
JTH...I was actually trying to drum home the fact there's more to her than a pretty face, etc....:blink:

Well I certianly agree with you on that point. But hey we know many message boards are dominated by men, and our brains are wired differently then women.

I personally think Palin has much to offer to both men and women. A stong, smart intelligent pro-life women whose managed to balance work with 5 children. Shes pro 2nd Ammendant, hunts, and can more then manage her own with the men. This is really going to fire up the conservative base.

But for the moment, I'm happy we have an election worth watching. I'm hoping Palin will put back some maverick spunk into McCain and remind him who he was 10 years ago.

But none of this really matters to me anyways. I'm a resident of Texas, McCain will win this state regardless of my vote. Maybe one day I'll live in a swing state where I could make a difference.

Steadygain
08-30-2008, 11:44 PM
I've been doing more thinking about Palin's nomination myself, and heavily weighing the fact that, if elected, she would be one person away from the most powerful and complex job on the planet. And then McCain's age becomes a serious factor.


That's what everything should boil down to - to everyone voting.

I don't know anything about Sarah - other than the extremely brief recent clips on TV. And probably the most striking event was seeing her picture on this thread and how much I saw the resemblence between her and my own daughter Sarah.

Sorry James - I thought you were doing a "Birchtree act" but now I see what you're really doing: Challenging us to determine if she is really qualified to be the "Commander in Chief" in a giant Political, Beurocartic, and Federal System that will likely rip her to shreds and leave her bewiltered with the reality of how things truely operate.

I would not want her to be forced into that position, and I hope that never happens. She was not picked because of having a strong political background and because McCain remotely thought "In the event of my death, she'd be the perfect replacement". She was picked because she's 'A WOMAN, YOUNG, PRETTY, - representing something fresh and new'.

It's plain and simple McCain and the real power and players behind him have made their decision. They want votes - they know the key is offering a similar "projection of Obama" - young, cleaver, new and promising. They also know a lot of women will flood to the booths to make it happen.

Friends - many will vote for one or the other mainly because they would never vote for the other party - to me that is stupid and based on ignorance; If anyone votes for McCain simply because a fresh young woman is the VP - that is equally stupid.

But my views are probably equally stupid to many of you.

Ladies of the MB - relax - we may be "men" but give us a break; as men we're simply pointing out she is beautiful - as least the picture on this thread is. But when it comes to being in charge of the United States of America and all the responsibilities that go with it "THE PICTURE" counts against her.

If McCain does win; I would bet she fades in the background. She is mainly a means to get him elected and nothing more.

James48843
08-31-2008, 12:15 AM
She was not picked because of having a strong political background and because McCain remotely thought "In the event of my death, she'd be the perfect replacement".

That- in and of itself, should be, in my humble opinion, THE only criteria on which to select the Vice-Presidential candidate in any election, by any party.

In the event of a President's death, or other inability to conduct office, the Vice President MUST be ready to step in and take over. The Constitution provides only only two duties for the Vice President- to preside over the Senate and break tie votes, and...be prepared to step in to the shoes of the President, should the President not be able to perform their duties.

In any other election, that in and of itself should be sufficient to garner close examination of who the VP pick is.

In this election, you have a Nominee who will be 73 years old upon taking office, and who is a two-time cancer survivor already. In circumstances like that- you HAVE to seriously consider the odds of the 73 year old guy making it 4 more years in good health, or, as an alternative, who has he chosen to take over in the event he can't do the job.


Period.

All other considerations- (sex, part of the country, which part of his party will they play to, etc) are ALL secondary considerations to the primary consideration.

At least one would think that they should be.

Who does McCain think is THE most qualified person in the entire nation to carry out the duties of the office of the President, in the event he can't serve? (Which, in this case, is higher likelihood (based on age and past medical problems) of a higher risk that any previous candidate from any party)

Well, now we know.

Yes, it's going to be an interesting election.

James48843
08-31-2008, 12:19 AM
It's plain and simple McCain and the real power and players behind him have made their decision. They want votes

And that's the problem.

Is it a case of putting party and maintaining power ahead of what's good the nation? The voters will have to decide that.

It has been said that Power corrupts, and
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I believe that this pick shows that to those in power, maintaining that power is more important than what is good for the country.

Given the choice of maintaining power, or helping for the good of others- my choice is clear.

Register.

Vote.

Be a citizen.

Period.

It's our democracy that is at stake.

Braveheart
08-31-2008, 03:53 AM
Bottom Line OBAMA has no qualifications and he is an election away from being President.

The man is a walking scandel and all he can do is give a good speech. Actions speak louder than words and he choose Rev. Wright and Resco. What we don't know about Obama is who he really is.

Sarah Palin has more class and qualifications than Obama on his best day. I would vote for McCain/Palin over Obama and day.

Anyone sick of hearing about a guy that had a free ride to Harvard and his bitter wife. How many College students owe money on loans please the story is old and what in his story makes him qualified.

Obama made his choice long ago and sat in a racist church yet did not speak up but when his political career was on the line he then found Wright wrong. Michelle Obama at the DNC when Hillary Clinton gave her speech had that mean look on her ugly mug and she did the same to Bill Clinton.

At least we know more about who Sarah Palin is in 1 day than we do about Obama. Is she qualified YES since she is going to be VP while Obama is trying to be President. The biggest joke of all is for spite Obama wanted to punish Hillary:D so he choose Biden and that left the door wide open for McCain to pick Palin and that choice by Obama cost him the election. We will all see November 4, 2008 and Sarah Palin will be our next VP on the McCain ticket.

In 24 hours McCain has already received 7 million dollars what does that tell you. McCain's got my vote because there is no way in hell I will follow the cult.:nuts:

CountryBoy
08-31-2008, 05:17 AM
Bottom Line OBAMA has no qualifications and he is an election away from being President.

The man is a walking scandel and all he can do is give a good speech. Actions speak louder than words and he choose Rev. Wright and Resco. What we don't know about Obama is who he really is.

Sarah Palin has more class and qualifications than Obama on his best day. I would vote for McCain/Palin over Obama and day.

Anyone sick of hearing about a guy that had a free ride to Harvard and his bitter wife. How many College students owe money on loans please the story is old and what in his story makes him qualified.

Obama made his choice long ago and sat in a racist church yet did not speak up but when his political career was on the line he then found Wright wrong. Michelle Obama at the DNC when Hillary Clinton gave her speech had that mean look on her ugly mug and she did the same to Bill Clinton.

At least we know more about who Sarah Palin is in 1 day than we do about Obama. Is she qualified YES since she is going to be VP while Obama is trying to be President. The biggest joke of all is for spite Obama wanted to punish Hillary:D so he choose Biden and that left the door wide open for McCain to pick Palin and that choice by Obama cost him the election. We will all see November 4, 2008 and Sarah Palin will be our next VP on the McCain ticket.

In 24 hours McCain has already received 7 million dollars what does that tell you. McCain's got my vote because there is no way in hell I will follow the cult.:nuts:

Not to mention his frienship with the unrepentant terrorists from the Weatherman Underground , co-dounder William Ayers, and Bernadine Dohrn. You are would your friends are and if you plead ignorance of there terroist actions, then you sure as heck shoudln't be our Prez, if you can have the wool pulled over your eyes so easy. Just look who he is sourrounding himself with and actions, all angry bitter people who hate or are ashamed of America or at the very least who want change thru hate and violence, I guess this is what he means about hope and change.

We all have blemishes, it's just what blemishes you can overlook or maybe you agree with, but for me actions speak much louder than words and the curtain is finally being pulled back to reveal the anger and bitterness that may be sitting in the White House. :(

CB

Show-me
08-31-2008, 06:32 AM
Bottom Line OBAMA has no qualifications and he is an election away from being President.

The man is a walking scandel and all he can do is give a good speech. Actions speak louder than words and he choose Rev. Wright and Resco. What we don't know about Obama is who he really is.

Sarah Palin has more class and qualifications than Obama on his best day. I would vote for McCain/Palin over Obama and day.

Anyone sick of hearing about a guy that had a free ride to Harvard and his bitter wife. How many College students owe money on loans please the story is old and what in his story makes him qualified.

Obama made his choice long ago and sat in a racist church yet did not speak up but when his political career was on the line he then found Wright wrong. Michelle Obama at the DNC when Hillary Clinton gave her speech had that mean look on her ugly mug and she did the same to Bill Clinton.

At least we know more about who Sarah Palin is in 1 day than we do about Obama. Is she qualified YES since she is going to be VP while Obama is trying to be President. The biggest joke of all is for spite Obama wanted to punish Hillary:D so he choose Biden and that left the door wide open for McCain to pick Palin and that choice by Obama cost him the election. We will all see November 4, 2008 and Sarah Palin will be our next VP on the McCain ticket.

In 24 hours McCain has already received 7 million dollars what does that tell you. McCain's got my vote because there is no way in hell I will follow the cult.:nuts:


Not to mention his frienship with the unrepentant terrorists from the Weatherman Underground , co-dounder William Ayers, and Bernadine Dohrn. You are would your friends are and if you plead ignorance of there terroist actions, then you sure as heck shoudln't be our Prez, if you can have the wool pulled over your eyes so easy. Just look who he is sourrounding himself with and actions, all angry bitter people who hate or are ashamed of America or at the very least who want change thru hate and violence, I guess this is what he means about hope and change.

We all have blemishes, it's just what blemishes you can overlook or maybe you agree with, but for me actions speak much louder than words and the curtain is finally being pulled back to reveal the anger and bitterness that may be sitting in the White House. :(

CB

LOL But none of those things count because he is black, charming, charismatic, a good orator, friends with Chicago's own Oprah, loved by Hollywood, and the media, and we want to do anything to stick it to the Republicans by electing this person even though he is not then right person for the job just to get even with the Bushies.;)

And, Obama picking Biden was not for "votes". LOL He picked Biden because Obama himself has NO experience and he don't trust the double team of Hillary and Bill for VP. He needed experience and foreign relations votes. Get real!

And, who do you think Obama will "surround" himself with if he gets into office? All of his Chicago buddies! The biggest crooks in the country!

Ron Paul for President!

SkyPilot
08-31-2008, 07:27 AM
The issue regarding Obama's credentials has already been made and is now defining.

Any attack against Palin only points up the identity that is already defined for Obama.

It is a circular discussion that end up showing Obama's inexperience, and then compared to McCain's.

The real value of Palin is to raise the issue of experience and leadership, not ultimately hers, but every discussion leads back to Obama's deficit.

And, there will be those attracted to Palin for a variety of reasons. Biden has little to offer and will likely attract no one to the ticket that wasn't already pro Obama to begin with.

Show-me
08-31-2008, 07:33 AM
The issue regarding Obama's credentials has already been made and is now defining.

Any attack against Palin only points up the identity that is already defined for Obama.

It is a circular discussion that end up showing Obama's inexperience, and then compared to McCain's.

The real value of Palin is to raise the issue of experience and leadership, not ultimately hers, but every discussion leads back to Obama's deficit.

And, there will be those attracted to Palin for a variety of reasons. Biden has little to offer and will likely attract no one to the ticket that wasn't already pro Obama to begin with.

BINGO! Well said.;)

SkyPilot
08-31-2008, 07:37 AM
In the event of a President's death, or other inability to conduct office, the Vice President MUST be ready to step in and take over. The Constitution provides only only two duties for the Vice President- to preside over the Senate and break tie votes, and...be prepared to step in to the shoes of the President, should the President not be able to perform their duties.



However, in the event of an election, Obama is unprepared to step into the shoes of the President, and unable to perform these duties. In that Palin is more qualified than Obama in terms of experience, why would anyone make this argument?

What executive leadership experience does Biden have? Or for that matter, even McCain? Or Carter? Seems that Palin had much of the same kind of exec experience that Bill Clinton had...

SkyPilot
08-31-2008, 08:26 AM
Actually, the more I think about it, this is a complicated problem for Obama. The more the RNC raises the issue about Obama's experience, the more the DNC speaks about Palin, which in turn creates more opportunity for the RNC to speak about Obama...

The RNC is going to speak about Obama's deficit at every opportunity, which will in turn generate more ops to speak about Obama's inexperience.

A possible strategic stroke of genius for the McCain camp...

Team Obama cannot dissipate the experience discussion in any way...

Braveheart
08-31-2008, 09:41 AM
Actually, the more I think about it, this is a complicated problem for Obama. The more the RNC raises the issue about Obama's experience, the more the DNC speaks about Palin, which in turn creates more opportunity for the RNC to speak about Obama...

The RNC is going to speak about Obama's deficit at every opportunity, which will in turn generate more ops to speak about Obama's inexperience.

A possible strategic stroke of genius for the McCain camp...

Team Obama cannot dissipate the experience discussion in any way...

100% correct and many thought McCain was some old has been but in this game he just landed a right hook that hit Obama and the DNC in the jaw. :laugh:They are now on the ropes and in spite of how bad Bush ran this country neither Senator Kerry could win and I predict Obama will lose huge. McCain may even take many blue states.

You can here the wisper we should have selected Hillary. LMAO all that money with Hollywood and MSNBC etc. but he can't bye votes. I can't wait to see Chris Mathews and Keith Olberman crying on the set.:D

nnuut
08-31-2008, 10:15 AM
I am in agreement with you guys, I think a Democratic win would TANK the economy. Don't fall for the HYPE!! Listen closely to what they are saying or more importantly NOT SAYING! When I listen to OBAMA speak a FLIGHT or FIGHT response hits me hard, I don't buy it, I'm out of there! NO NO NOT ME! 4564 "think Hatch Act"

SkyPilot
08-31-2008, 11:32 AM
Look for RNC shills covertly pushing this debate, maybe even raising the issue of Palin's experience providing an excuse to talk about Obama's inexperience.

The more experience is discussed, the more damaging it is to Obama, and the more the Dems speak about Palin, the more it will look like a sexist attack...

The talk radio folks will raise the issues of attacks on Palin (even if they have to be contrived) to give them an excuse to talk about Obama...

Also, there will be more said about the Obama campaign's initial reaction to Palin's selection and the fact that she was a mayor of a small town.

The percieved elitist attitude of the Obama campaign was just reinforced by the Obama Chicago team, (She's been a mayor of a small town of 9000) and this reaction will be replayed again and again for the small, rural guns and church crowd... "What's Obama got against small town rural, gun totin' church goin' hockey playin', red blooded Americans? At least she's been a mayor, and a Govenor"...

Ouch!

rokid
08-31-2008, 12:54 PM
Three points:

1. True Republicans think Sarah Palin is great regardless of her lack of qualifications. I'm not saying she's isn't wonderful, can't learn, and isn't hot. However, her resume provides no indication she can do the job - I've got more executive experience than she does (20 years vs. 18 months) and I'm certainly NOT qualified. I will be interested in her answers to the usual beauty contest "world peace" questions.:laugh:

2. Fairfax County Virginia's county executive, Anthony H. Griffin (yes, I had to Google him) has responsibility for almost twice as many people as Sarah Palin (+1 million vs. +600K). However, nobody is suggesting he should be Veep for either party. Maybe, it's because he's a man. Maybe, it's because he doesn't eat moose burgers.

3. The Republicans better get down on their knees and pray Chertoff doesn't screw up New Orleans.

---Jim

tsptalk
08-31-2008, 01:29 PM
The Dems are finding everything wrong with Palin, and the Reps, all the good. I have no doubt that if Palin had a "D" next to her name the arguments would be exactly the same, we'd just be switching the authors. :)

What counts is the candidate's political philosophy and how much they stand behind it. Palin seems to have a solid foundation in her beliefs, convictions, and morality (on the right), and her lack of experience will not be a factor, as long as her decisions are based on that foundation.

And the same goes for Obama. As inexperienced as he is, he seems to know what he wants to do and has his basic philosophy (left). Those of us who agree with Palin's philosophy, will back her party, and those who agree with Obama's will back his party. Unfortunately McCain is somewhere in the middle and it's tough to fully get on his bandwagon.

I'd like to hear from the undecided. As I said, we know how us partisan folks feel. What does the average undecided Joe think of the 4 candidates?

SkyPilot
08-31-2008, 01:32 PM
Democrats seem to think Obama is great, regardless of his lack of qualifications... there is nothing in Obama's resume that suggests he is able to do the job, yet he is the Democratic nominee for president (less than 150 days of senate experience, and most of that time running for president.

And Obama presents with less qualifications and executive experience than the Republican VP candidate, Sarah Palin.




See what I mean? There seems to be no argument raised relating to experience that isn't difficult for the Obama campaign...

SkyPilot
08-31-2008, 01:35 PM
...And the same goes for Obama. As inexperienced as he is, he seems to know what he wants to do and has his basic philosophy (left).

Unless it is above his pay grade... :)

I think the position of POTUS is OJT for everybody, and no one can really know what the job is like until they sit in that chair.

So, ultimately the discussion of experience is sort of moot. The real test is how any administration can deal with us, the defacto shadow government that is here as administrations come and go. We actually set policies, implementation rules, administer oversight, etc...

Power to the bureaucrats!

McDuck
08-31-2008, 04:00 PM
With her beehive hairdo and retro specs, Palin, 44, has a “naughty librarian vibe”, according to Craig Ferguson, the Scottish comedian who stars on late-night US television. However, the selection of Palin, the governor of Alaska and a mother of five, as the first female Republican vice-presidential nominee is no joke for the Democrats.

----------------------------------------
At 44, she observed, Palin was quite literally a fresh face, not unattractive, and, behind those schoolmarm frames of the governor's glasses, and underneath the hint of cascade in her brunette locks, Joan Cheek thought she saw something else, a still resonant image from vintage popular culture.


"Wonder Woman!" she announced it, not with relish but with

http://politicalkudzu.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/palin.jpg

http://wonkette.com/assets/resources/2008/03/sarah_palin_ap.jpg

http://www.necn.com/files/2008/08/29/vlcsnap-8335498.jpg

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/08/31/amd_palin-boat.jpg

Show-me
08-31-2008, 04:06 PM
Let us not forget how Obama got to Washington. No contest! Jack Ryan dropped out due to a divorce/sex scandal late in the game and Alan Keys ran for the hell of it as a carpetbagger.

Face it, if Obama would have had a real candidate to run against he would not be in Washington now. He won by default not by his experience.

Guest2
08-31-2008, 05:19 PM
Face it, if Obama would have had a real candidate to run against he would not be in Washington now. He won by default not by his experience.

I'm afraid we'll be saying something similar after the elect;

If Obama would have had a real a candidate to run against and the
current Republican President wasn't looked upon as the anti- christ,
he wouldn't be President. :blink:

luv2read
08-31-2008, 06:58 PM
If McCain does win; I would bet she fades in the background. She is mainly a means to get him elected and nothing more. And that's why this choice is SO wrong. Many others will see it the same way. That's quite a put-down, by the way, albeit unintended.

JTH
08-31-2008, 07:04 PM
If you really want to know where she stands on MOST of the issues, then click this link.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Sarah_Palin.htm

fabijo
09-01-2008, 12:20 AM
What a WEIRD election cycle.

No?

Very true.

ChemEng
09-01-2008, 12:46 AM
If you really want to know where she stands on MOST of the issues, then click this link.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Sarah_Palin.htmIt 404'd me. I dont know if that was a joke, but I thought it was pretty funny. :)

James48843
09-01-2008, 07:25 AM
It 404'd me. I dont know if that was a joke, but I thought it was pretty funny. :)


That site is back up now. they had to add a few lines because she actually took some positions yesterday.

And yes, it's pretty darn funny to have 404'd you. :cheesy:

James48843
09-01-2008, 07:34 AM
You may have heard that on Dr. James Dobson's "Focus on the Family", this video appeared a couple weeks ago, encouraging people to pray for rain, "during a certain presidential candidate's acceptance speech. "

In this video - he asked Dobson viewers the question "Is it ok to pray for rain??"



"Abundant Rain, Torrential Rain. Urban and small stream flood advisory rain".


ohxdvio9n2Q



One should never pray for the detriment of others.

1 Timothy 2:

1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone—
2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.
7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.




God answers prayers, alright. But you don't always want to hear the answer that God brings you.


Let us lift us THIS gentlemen, in that he not feel somehow responsible for the result of a prayer request for "Torrential rain during a certain presidential convention."



And most of all- pray for the people of New Orleans and the surrounding area, who are, at this moment, going through a serious storm.

luv2read
09-01-2008, 09:01 AM
James,

Amen, and thank you. My family and many friends are there.

I just heard from friends on the coast that the surge in Hancock and Harrison counties MS is 12' and has breached the roads, it's not in homes yet, but anybody "riding it out" is now stranded.

McDuck
09-01-2008, 11:24 AM
You may have heard that on Dr. James Dobson's "Focus on the Family", this video appeared a couple weeks ago, encouraging people to pray for rain, "during a certain presidential candidate's acceptance speech. "

In this video - he asked Dobson viewers the question "Is it ok to pray for rain??"


The guy in the video is NOT identified in the video or by you. It is not Dr. Dobson. I suspect it was done by a DIM so that ya'll could try to slander.

But there is proof that Micheal Moore did say that for this week.

Jimbo48843, Please identify the guy (by name) in the youtube video since you posted it.

SkyPilot
09-01-2008, 11:39 AM
James, must be careful here... don't get caught up in the spin. You have great credibility, so be cautious about this kind of stuff. Invoking the Divine is major stuff, and quotation of scripture to bolster a political position should be weighed carefully and with great caution.

Maybe we should just avoid much of that here.

And for those who might be tempted to critisize Gov. Palin regarding her daughter's pregnancy... let's not. Many of us understand and can relate to this family circumstance.

James48843
09-01-2008, 12:34 PM
The guy in the video is NOT identified in the video or by you. It is not Dr. Dobson. I suspect it was done by a DIM so that ya'll could try to slander.

But there is proof that Micheal Moore did say that for this week.

Jimbo48843, Please identify the guy (by name) in the youtube video since you posted it.

The gentleman in the video is Stuart Shepard. He is "media director" for Focus on the Family's political group- called "Focus Action". He does videos that appear on Focus on the Family's website. After some people objected to this one, Focus pulled the video off the website, but not before copies appeared on Youtube.

You can read more about the video here:
from Channel 7 in Denver:
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/politics/17166715/detail.html

and here: a rather right of center home page of pundits:

http://www.rightpundits.com/?p=1874


No slander intended.

Only prayers for those who are in the path of the storm, and a prayer for the guy who thought it would be "fun" to poke a little fun.

I'll try to clarify my previous statement- - I believe Prayer is a mighty thing that is not to be lightly. And we need to pray for BOTH sides in this presidential season- as laid out in 1 Timothy -

"I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone—
2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. "


We need to pray for ALL those in authority.

James48843
09-01-2008, 12:58 PM
Enough said.


Change of topics:

To all: Happy Labor Day.

More than 100 years ago, men and women in New York marched to fight against 12-hour workdays and rampant child labor.

Workers fought to win workplace rights and better working conditions and wages at a time when they had little powerLabor Day- a day to honor the working men and women of America, will be celebrated in every state.

It is the creation of the labor movement, and is dedicated to the social and economic achievements of American workers. It constitutes a yearly national tribute to the contributions workers have made to the strength, prosperity, and well-being of our country.

If you work a 40 hour work week, it is because of the struggles of Union organized labor – workers banding together, to fight for decent hours and a safe workplace.

If you have health insurance in which the employer pays a part, it is because of the struggles of Union organized labor to obtain employer contributions to provided health care for workers.

If you have annual leave, it is because of the struggles of Union organized labor to obtain vacation days- leave- for all employees.

If you have pay raises, it is because of the struggles of Union organized labor to obtain equal pay for women and minorities – that founded the “step system pay scale” to replace the “fair haired child buddy system”. Yes, that's how idea of the "step system" of the GS scale began- as a Union initiated pay reform, ( http://cpre.wceruw.org/tcomp/general/teacherpay.php ) to provide equal pay for equal work in the 1920's for women and minorities- long before equal pay was the law of the land. Which, by the way, the law was a direct result of Union Labor work.

And the battle continues today by thousands of workers across the nation- for the basic rights of man.

You wont’ read about any of this in the official messages of current Administration Senior Management offices. But to each worker across our Government- I wish you a warm and wonderful Labor Day weekend- a time to reflect on the struggles of the past, and the struggles that lay before us in the time ahead.

My Agency? The FAA. And a SPECIAL Happy Labor Day to my brothers and sisters of NATCA, PASS, AFSCME, AFGE, NAGE, LIUNA, NAATS, PAACE, and the 34,112 current FAA employees who are represented by these Organized Labor employee groups.

Remember that Labor Day isn't about swimming pools and outdoor grills. It's about the men and women before us who worked hard to make the work environment better for all of us.

Happy Labor Day.

SkyPilot
09-01-2008, 02:30 PM
The gentleman in the video is Stuart Shepard. He is "media director" for Focus on the Family's political group- called "Focus Action". He does videos that appear on Focus on the Family's website. After some people objected to this one, Focus pulled the video off the website, but not before copies appeared on Youtube.

You can read more about the video here:
from Channel 7 in Denver:
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/politics/17166715/detail.html

and here: a rather right of center home page of pundits:

http://www.rightpundits.com/?p=1874


No slander intended.

Only prayers for those who are in the path of the storm, and a prayer for the guy who thought it would be "fun" to poke a little fun.

I'll try to clarify my previous statement- - I believe Prayer is a mighty thing that is not to be lightly. And we need to pray for BOTH sides in this presidential season- as laid out in 1 Timothy -

"I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone—
2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. "


We need to pray for ALL those in authority.

Then again, maybe it was the Dems invoking this epitat...

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/31/dem-apologizes-for-joking-about-hurricane/


...but of course, it was the fellow who caught him in the act that is to blame...

rokid
09-01-2008, 07:15 PM
Boy, McCain is unbelievably clever. Palin gives him women, the NRA, hunters, pro-lifers, Eskimos, snow mobilers, commercial fishermen, moose burger lovers, the pro-drilling lobby, beauty contest queens, women basketball players, small towns, small population states, executive expertise and, now, unwed mothers! Wow. :laugh:

Obama should concede immediately. He's got no chance.----Jim

Braveheart
09-01-2008, 08:07 PM
Boy, McCain is unbelievably clever. Palin gives him women, the NRA, hunters, pro-lifers, Eskimos, snow mobilers, commercial fishermen, moose burger lovers, the pro-drilling lobby, beauty contest queens, women basketball players, small towns, small population states, executive expertise and, now, unwed mothers! Wow. :laugh:

Obama should concede immediately. He's got no chance.----Jim

PALIN gives McCain the White House, she will be even more popular now than before. She stands by her kids and there are plenty of parents that would have thrown her daughter out. Not Palin she is the new Rock Star but the difference is she is not fake and doesn't hide the truth. Trust goes a long way she has that Obama can't buy it !!! :cool:

nnuut
09-01-2008, 08:11 PM
PALIN gives McCain the White House, she will be even more popular now than before. She stands by her kids and there are plenty of parents that would have thrown her daughter out. Not Palin she is the new Rock Star but the difference is she is not fake and doesn't hide the truth. Trust goes a long way she has that Obama can't buy it !!! :cool:
:D
v8gCsotHagM

Birchtree
09-01-2008, 08:25 PM
I've been asleep - I just realized what the DNC letters stood for: Democratic Negro Caucus.

XL-entLady
09-01-2008, 10:11 PM
I've been asleep - I just realized what the DNC letters stood for: Democratic Negro Caucus.
I thought to myself, "Oh MY, I must have read that wrong!" :blink: Then I realized the post was from Birch. :rolleyes:

Lady

luv2read
09-01-2008, 11:12 PM
I thought to myself, "Oh MY, I must have read that wrong!" :blink: Then I realized the post was from Birch. :rolleyes:

Lady
It could have been worse....

James48843
09-02-2008, 07:34 AM
Sometimes I think Birch is kind of like that old crotchty Uncle that always shows up at the family gatherings (Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter, etc.), and all the kids get big wide eyes, and giggle when he talks.

He can be embarrassing as everything, but hey, he's your Uncle. Family. And you just got to live with it.

Birch, may you show up at my family gatherings, and create memories for the young ones.... (But please don't do that "Pull my finger thing anymore, ok?)


He's Birch.

But he's OUR Birch.....

James48843
09-02-2008, 07:37 AM
Now HERE is a funny one:

http://raford.wordpress.com/2008/09/01/sarah-palins-pregancy-decision-map/

Steadygain
09-02-2008, 07:55 AM
Bottom Line OBAMA has no qualifications and he is an election away from being President.

In 24 hours McCain has already received 7 million dollars what does that tell you. McCain's got my vote because there is no way in hell I will follow the cult.:nuts:

Braveheart - my friend. I appreciate your insights and your opinion is just as valid and defendable as any of ours.

I tell ya what. I'd start another thread and I will be able to prove beyond the shadow of any doubt that McCain is no more qualified to be President of the United States than Obama is.

Everyone lives in a dream world - where they think the President has the power and know how to effectively run the country. That is only possible with a 'Federal System' that's set up in a healthy manner. The Bush Administration has created MORE GOVERNMENT that any previous administration and NONE OF THOSE POSITIONS are going to disappear. Until that SYSTEM is "corrected" NO ONE PERSON will be able to make any difference.

Steadygain
09-02-2008, 08:35 AM
And that's why this choice is SO wrong. Many others will see it the same way. That's quite a put-down, by the way, albeit unintended.

Luv2read,
When I pulled up this thread it somehow poped up on page 4 - giving me the impression that James' response to my post was the last one.

I am the one who stressed that if McCain wins "all of us" need to embrace Sarah as the VP and give her our whole hearted support.

I am not putting her down - I am simply highlighting the way of Politics. I would hope she has a significant part in the global and domestic political exchanges - but "realistically" that is highly unlikely.

Still all of us are seeing this from the perspective that our country runs under a smooth and valid system. Here is where everyone will be shocked by the way things really are. The underlying Federal System has gotten progressively worse and worse over the years regardless of Dem or Rep - with our recent administration creating the all time "Biggest Government" ever.

So it absolutely makes little difference who steps in at this moment in time. Whoever steps in - steps into the "Biggest Government" ever and none of those positions have disappeared over time. The President will therefore have to select at least 3,000 individuals to fill the vacancies and it's just a huge mess with way too many leaders and layers of leaders going on and on.

I believe Birch, CB, and many others have solid convictions about why Obama should not be President - but for me personally I'm looking at who is willing to trim down the "underlying system" instead of adding to it.

SkyPilot
09-02-2008, 09:29 AM
I tell ya what. I'd start another thread and I will be able to prove beyond the shadow of any doubt that McCain is no more qualified to be President of the United States than Obama is.


However, Obama has engaged himself defending his experience not against McCain, but rather Palin. I suspect that is exactly the strategy the Pubs were hoping to snare Obama in. In the comparison, it elevates Palin, and diminishes Obama.

Obama should have stayed on message trying to point up the unity of McCain and Bush.

As far as saying Palin should stay home with the 5 kids, now it is being pointed out that Obama has his own children and why is it more of an issue for her than him. Experience debate and now sexism...

Obama has erred by straying off message.

Age and treachery often beats youth and enthusiasm....

2EASY
09-02-2008, 12:32 PM
Qualified or not - How can you pick someone to be the Commander in Chief if you have only met her once for 15 mins? What was he looking at - just her resume? Naw - he was just trying to get the women vote plus please the Rushs' & Hannitys' by getting a conservative with executive experience (how limited it is).

Steadygain
09-02-2008, 12:32 PM
If you really want to know where she stands on MOST of the issues, then click this link.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Sarah_Palin.htm

JTH - This is amazing.

I'm floored, but like I've said all along: "If the right person said the right thing I'd give them my full support". I know a lot of people that would be thrilled to see this.

Maybe this is a huge blessing in disquise - pulled in for "the wrong reason" - but meant for the best.

Thanks for sharing this!

SkyPilot
09-02-2008, 12:47 PM
Qualified or not - How can you pick someone to be the Commander in Chief if you have only met her once for 15 mins? What was he looking at - just her resume? Naw - he was just trying to get the women vote plus please the Rushs' & Hannitys' by getting a conservative with executive experience (how limited it is).

Actually this is not true, but you have accurately quoted the talking points that the DNC has been publishing.

While he is undoubtedly hoping to attract independent undecideds and Hillary female voters, it seems he was more concerned with shoring up his conservative credentials with the Republican base. In that matter, this seems to be the case. They are "wild" about Palin...

This choice has also effectively robbed the news cycle and sucked the air out of the Obama speech which by most accounts was one of the 3 or 4 best presidential speeches ever made.

Some say the choice shows a lack of judgement, however, McCain may have already accomplished most of what he set out to do by choosing Gov. Palin. Crazy like a fox?

Now, if she establishes herself as a saavy politician in her debate with Sen. Biden, she adds value on another level.

Obama must recapture the momentum and focus the national argument that McCain is the 3rd Bush term. However, it is becoming increasingly difficult to paint McCain as a twin of Bush and one who cannot or will not embrace change and new ideas.

2EASY
09-02-2008, 01:21 PM
SKY - what's not true? We all know there were republicans that McCain had a history with...and would have shored "up his conservative credentials with the Republican base." The GOP wont admit it - but they are ticked off. Why haven't we seen Romney or Huckleby speaking lately?

Frixxxx
09-02-2008, 01:56 PM
If you really want to know where she stands on MOST of the issues, then click this link.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Sarah_Palin.htm

Thanks for the site,, however on Family & Children, it seems to me that her daughter being pregnant is not a stance but an occurence. I know this site has many other "facts" rather than legitimate stances. Now if they named it influences, then maybe. I'm pretty sure if you asked her what her stance on pre-marital sex, she would say "I'm not for it".

As far as the Bridge to nowhere, I would have backed it if I could get my constituents jobs and benefits. But yeah, just like anyone else, denounce it for what it is when it all comes out in the wash...

Palin on Immigration....this one was funny to me. I tried to picture all the Canadians "crossing the border".

Principle and Values. Now I have to laugh at the Beauty pageant and her Miss Congeniality statement....Can't we have congeniality in the government? Are we scared it will rub off on someone? Oh and to bring up her 1984 accomplishment and label it 2008 is suspect.

Ah the list could go on....

:cool:

CountryBoy
09-02-2008, 02:29 PM
SKY - what's not true? We all know there were republicans that McCain had a history with...and would have shored "up his conservative credentials with the Republican base." The GOP wont admit it - but they are ticked off. Why haven't we seen Romney or Huckleby speaking lately?

Hey 2Easy,

I'm part of that conservative base and I wasn't upset with McCain, I'm just coming to accept the fact that we are still a 2 party system, just Democrat and Socialist. And Huckleby ain't no conservative. He's just a RINO like Schwarzenegger, sp?.


Palin didn't make one iotas difference in my vote selection. I'd be just as apt to vote for Lieberman as McCain, there ain't a spit worth's of difference between the 2. As for Palin, maybe she needs to plagarized sumpin' or got caught cheatin' in college, to have the correct qualifications for Veep, since being a gov, yeah for only 2 years, doesn't seem to cut any ice with anyone. Ya'll better get rip her apart in the next couple of weeks or it'll probably be 2 late, but it may backfire on ya. Andrea Mitchell has already said, yesterday, Palin will only attract the dumb and uneducated women. We need more of this stuff. Nothin like a womans wrath. ;)

It's no wonder we don't get the best and brightest from both sides, because of all the mud and crap that the press slings, even if it's a lie.

This is guy sick and tired of politics and the hypocrisy. But then I just a dumb old cynical country inganeer. :nuts:

CB

Birchtree
09-02-2008, 02:55 PM
And we know who Andrea Mitchell is married to, right? Andrea is naked in a glass house.

SkyPilot
09-02-2008, 02:59 PM
SKY - what's not true? We all know there were republicans that McCain had a history with...and would have shored "up his conservative credentials with the Republican base." The GOP wont admit it - but they are ticked off. Why haven't we seen Romney or Huckleby speaking lately?

McCain has had ongoing private conversations with Palin since April, according to the McCain campaign. And I have seen both Romney and Huckabee endorsing the Palin nomination. In fact, I beleive Romney has joined McCain on the campain tour. Huckabee can be seen on Fox News as a new paid political contributor. Maybe if you Google them, you will be able to get more information on their stance.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/02/top-republicans-defend-palin-and-vetting-process/

I have not seen any evidence that the GOP is "ticked off" as you suggest, rather, the polling of GOP adherants suggest overwhelming support for this nomination. However, Charles Krauthammer did make the point that since McCain was positioned so well going into this convention that he would have preferred a Romney or Huckabee pick as a safe bet.

What is clear is that there are many Dems unhappy that Obama rejected Clinton, who would have virtually guaranteed a Democratic victory and are not ready to fall in line...

It does seem that the loyal opposition is unhappy with the GOP choice.

JTH
09-02-2008, 03:09 PM
JTH - This is amazing.

I'm floored, but like I've said all along: "If the right person said the right thing I'd give them my full support". I know a lot of people that would be thrilled to see this.

Maybe this is a huge blessing in disquise - pulled in for "the wrong reason" - but meant for the best.

Thanks for sharing this!

Thanks Steady, I got the link from my dad who posted this in his forum. If there is one thing we should all agree on it's that this thread has created far more buzz then Biden ever did.

rokid
09-02-2008, 03:26 PM
And we know who Andrea Mitchell is married to, right? Andrea is naked in a glass house.

Andrea and Alan naked in a glass house? :sick:

Birch, I can't take many more of your images! :laugh:-----Jim

SkyPilot
09-02-2008, 03:31 PM
Andrea and Alan naked in a glass house? :sick:

Birch, I can't take many more of your images! :laugh:-----Jim

C'mon, ya know you'd look :nuts:

Braveheart
09-02-2008, 03:40 PM
Did Obama get that DNC bounce ? NO

Why did Obama stay only a few points ahead of McCain - Sarah Palin!!!:D

Next week McCain/Obama even or McCain ahead by 3+ points why Palin. :D

ChemEng
09-02-2008, 03:40 PM
Tucker Bounds on Palin's National Security Experience
UYYiw_y2qDI
Almost as funny as the appeaser clip from earlier in this campaign.

Frixxxx
09-02-2008, 03:45 PM
And we know who Andrea Mitchell is married to, right? Andrea is naked in a glass house.

OMG, is that legal?


Andrea and Alan naked in a glass house? :sick:

Birch, I can't take many more of your images! :laugh:-----Jim

I'd love to hear that breakfast conversation though.:cool:

Steadygain
09-02-2008, 03:56 PM
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/02/technology/kimes_intrade.fortune/index.htm

If they drop her - it's politics at its worst.

Frixxxx
09-02-2008, 04:06 PM
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/02/technology/kimes_intrade.fortune/index.htm

If they drop her - it's politics at its worst.


Agreed, but with just 60 days until the election, I'm not sure that they could come up with enough to actually make/get her to leave.

The part or the election coverage I started laughing at was her admitted use of Marijuana when it was legal in Alaska. As opposed to cocaine/crack that Obama has admitted to using. Hmmmmmmm:rolleyes:

rokid
09-02-2008, 04:20 PM
It does seem that the loyal opposition is unhappy with the GOP choice.

I'm very happy with McCain's choice, unless, of course, he wins.

Is it true that Palin didn't tell her family she was running for VeeP, until, after she accepted? If so, that sure put her daughter and Levi in a bad position - world-wide scrutiny of a teen-age screw-up.

http://gawker.com/5044198/field-guide-levi-johnston

I hope Levi and his friend know they can't enter DC packing.:laugh:

I won't even mention the rumor that Bristol is Trig's mother and Sarah is his grandmother. Oops, I mentioned it!

Last night, on the Larry King Show, James Carville held of a picture of the Wasilla AK city hall and said it looked like a Louisiana bait shop. You be the judge. Obama can't compete with that kind of experience.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wcOjkvHl9yc/SL2AAHp_qPI/AAAAAAAABgY/uAfa2fyQWLk/s1600-h/wasilla+city+hall.jpg


Yeah, the Dems are frantic over how to handle McCain's masterful pick. Hmm, just sit back and let the press and blogsphere tear her and her family apart? ;)


Maybe, they're going for the pity vote.-----Jim

rokid
09-02-2008, 04:23 PM
C'mon, ya know you'd look :nuts:

No, I don't even like looking at her face.:toung:

nnuut
09-02-2008, 04:33 PM
:laugh: 4578

tsptalk
09-02-2008, 05:21 PM
No, I don't even like looking at her face.:toung:
I think her face would be the least of our problems if Alan's tookus was also in that glass house. :D

SkyPilot
09-02-2008, 06:49 PM
Is it true that Palin didn't tell her family she was running for VeeP, until, after she accepted? If so, that sure put her daughter and Levi in a bad position - world-wide scrutiny of a teen-age screw-up.

I won't even mention the rumor that Bristol is Trig's mother and Sarah is his grandmother. Oops, I mentioned it!


Actually, it is reported that Gov. Palin's husband and children were part of the decision, but not the extended family.

And to even go there with the false rumor you have mentioned is not worthy of your reputation. We are better than that. That would be the same as asserting that Obama is a Muslim, which of course is untrue.

Aviator_Guy
09-02-2008, 06:57 PM
Sarah Palin is really getting slammed on the media, but I think it will backfire. They keep bringing up her lack of experience, so I guess being an Arkansas or a Georgia Governor makes a man a lot more qualified than a female Governor from Alaska? All it does in the end is turn the focus back to what makes Obama qualified to lead the free world? His four years in the Senate, two of which were spent running for President? Anyway, it will be really interesting watching the RNC unfold after the doom and gloom of the DNC…:cool::cool:

James48843
09-02-2008, 08:46 PM
If you want to see something VERY interesting- for you die-hard traders out there- take a look at this:

http://www.intrade.com/aav2/trading/tradingHTML.jsp

Where you can buy and sell futures options on political outcomes.

Pretty weird stuff.

Shows, at the moment, a 14% chance of Palin dropping out, and only a 38% chance of a McCain victory, according to traders of such futures.


4579

rokid
09-02-2008, 09:13 PM
Actually, it is reported that Gov. Palin's husband and children were part of the decision, but not the extended family.

Here's my source:

"Later that morning, John McCain departed for Phoenix and Governor Palin departed with staff to Flagstaff, Arizona. Governor Palin, Kris Perry, Steve Schmidt and Mark Salter proceeded to the Manchester Inn and Conference Center in Middleton, Ohio. They were checked into the hotel as the Upton Family. While there, Governor Palin’s children, who had been told they were going to Ohio to celebrate their parents’ wedding anniversary, were told for the first time that their mother would be a nominee for Vice President of the United States of America."

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/08/29/1307122.aspx

If Gov Palin didn't discuss the consequences of pursuing the Vice Presidency with Bristol BEFORE accepting the slot, she's just an opportunist willing to sacrifice her child to her ambition. If she did, then the story needs to be rebutted, directly.

The "grandmother" rumor was reported anonymously in the Daily Kos and seems to have been debunked. I was just having fun with this wild, crazy, and rapidly changing story.

However, seriously, "why" did McCain pick Palin? Surely, there were better Republican women available. For example Olympia Snow - she's a maverick, experienced, and highly respected.

Furthermore, "why" did Gov. Palin accept? She seems like she has a lot on her plate with TrooperGate, a handicapped baby, two other young children, a son in Iraq, and a pregnant, unwed daughter.

Why go through all of this drama? I just don't get it. ----Jim

tsptalk
09-02-2008, 09:36 PM
If you want to see something VERY interesting- for you die-hard traders out there- take a look at this:

http://www.intrade.com/aav2/trading/tradingHTML.jsp (http://www.intrade.com/aav2/trading/tradingHTML.jsp)

Where you can buy and sell futures options on political outcomes.

Pretty weird stuff.

Shows, at the moment, a 14% chance of Palin dropping out, and only a 38% chance of a McCain victory, according to traders of such futures.



4579
I should have bought McCain in December, but I'd be taking profits here. I'll buy on a pullback. :D

Hillary was the big favorite several months ago.

I remember back in early 2000, I took Bush at 2-1 (Gore was less than 1-2 at the time). I didn't know much about Bush back then, but I remember thinking, who would vote for Gore? Turns out about 50% of the country did, but I made some money when he fell short.

JTH
09-02-2008, 09:45 PM
Here's my source:

"Later that morning, John McCain departed for Phoenix and Governor Palin departed with staff to Flagstaff, Arizona. Governor Palin, Kris Perry, Steve Schmidt and Mark Salter proceeded to the Manchester Inn and Conference Center in Middleton, Ohio. They were checked into the hotel as the Upton Family. While there, Governor Palin’s children, who had been told they were going to Ohio to celebrate their parents’ wedding anniversary, were told for the first time that their mother would be a nominee for Vice President of the United States of America."

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/08/29/1307122.aspx

If Gov Palin didn't discuss the consequences of pursuing the Vice Presidency with Bristol BEFORE accepting the slot, she's just an opportunist willing to sacrifice her child to her ambition. If she did, then the story needs to be rebutted, directly.

The "grandmother" rumor was reported anonymously in the Daily Kos and seems to have been debunked. I was just having fun with this wild, crazy, and rapidly changing story.

However, seriously, "why" did McCain pick Palin? Surely, there were better Republican women available. For example Olympia Snow - she's a maverick, experienced, and highly respected.

Furthermore, "why" did Gov. Palin accept? She seems like she has a lot on her plate with TrooperGate, a handicapped baby, two other young children, a son in Iraq, and a pregnant, unwed daughter.

Why go through all of this drama? I just don't get it. ----Jim

Since when do you consult your kids before taking a job? Last I checked the parents are in charge. Besides, her daughter will be 18 soon and won't have to live in the White House.

As for your last sentence, it comes off sounding sexist. We all have problems in life and we deal with them.

SkyPilot
09-02-2008, 10:25 PM
Furthermore, "why" did Gov. Palin accept? She seems like she has a lot on her plate with TrooperGate, a handicapped baby, two other young children, a son in Iraq, and a pregnant, unwed daughter.

Why go through all of this drama? I just don't get it. ----Jim

Troopergate? Are you serious? Surely you would not want to resurrect a term relating to the use of "troopers" in Little Rock, Arkansas during the Clinton years?

You make some assumptions not based on fact as the article you reference doesn't even attempt to make the point that this issue had not been discussed as a family.

It only speaks to the issue of when the final decision had been made and the manner by which it was finally revealed to the family. Careful with your isogesis.

But on to your larger assertion.

So, to be eligible you must not have family complications, not have any controversies surrounding your public service, and have no situations that produce drama? Which individual would then qualify?

Even if there is none, the media seem quite capable of inventing smear and slander, to which you point to as a point of humor. Bad form indeed.

Your standard would then disqualify Obama as he has young children, a working spouse and a half brother living in poverty? This list could be developed further.

How about all of these candidates are responding to a call to service that goes beyond personal self interest, and are willing to make the sacrifice for public service?

To ask this question of Gov. Palin and not ask it of the male candidates seems a bit disingenuous. If you are just opposed to Gov. Palin because of a political position, make your case.

But to presume that one can judge her viability based on her family situation is a bit fatuous. Her family issues are more likely to make her an "everywoman", and appeal to the more populist among us. She is an imperfect person, much like the rest of us.

Attack her policies and positions, her record and experience. But to go to her family as a quallifier? Really, we are above this rhetoric.

While not an advocate of the Obama candidacy, I have directly defended his right to run for office, and have admonished my co-workers who have made these slanderous and shameful attacks on him.

Obama has called these areas off limits, good advice we should all pay attention to.

roskopfm
09-02-2008, 10:57 PM
Sarah is going to eat Joe Biden alive in a debate. I cant wait, she is what the republican party needs. She is like McCain, straight shooter and puts country above party unlike biased Obama.

SkyPilot
09-02-2008, 11:06 PM
Sarah is going to eat Joe Biden alive in a debate. I cant wait, she is what the republican party needs. She is like McCain, straight shooter and puts country above party unlike biased Obama.

She will have to learn a lot fast, as Biden has quite a base to work from. It would be a mistake to under estimate Biden's ability to debate and make his points.

JTH
09-02-2008, 11:31 PM
I don't think she will eat his lunch. If she gets a draw or a little less, it will be a win. Nobody has high standards for her so the bar is set very low. I don't think she will choke, she's quick witted and shoots from the hip very well.

Steadygain
09-03-2008, 08:15 AM
Children! Children! So much fuss. My gosh, I go to bed and a world war breaks out.

Let me tell you a little about Sarah: She is a whole lot like Luv2read; lots of drive, very focused, knows what she believes and is more than willing to set the record straight. She is from the heart and you don't need years of political GARBAGE to be qualified to run for office. What you need more than anything else is the right heart and mind and the determination to set the example and make a difference.

If we believe ONE is "right" for the job - there is no need to BASH the other. Everytime we BASH a canidate "we simply reflect our bias and prejudice views" against a particular Party, Gender, Race, Religion..... But in the end we do nothing more than convince everyone else that we are strongly biased against a particular person because they are "in our eyes" this or that.

So let me express my biased view - without BASHING anyone else. Sarah represents everything I could hope for in a leader; by the way she has lived her life, and by her own convictions on various topics that are important to me. So she has my full support.

Guest2
09-03-2008, 08:26 AM
In the past, some Vice Presidents sat in the background to the point of
the American people forgetting his name. Based on the Constitutional
Powers of the elected, the Chain of Command is vital to this nations
future security. I do NOT want (8) more years of Union Busting, Doing
More With Less In A Prison Environment and Higher Health Care
Premiums. (I don't think McCain is a Bush clone). But to weigh in on the
VP nomination and overall discussion, I've come to say;

I'D RATHER HAVE;
"A strongly experienced President watching out for a weaker and less experienced Vice President"

I'D RATHER NOT HAVE;
"A Strongly experienced Vice President watching out for a weaker and less experienced President."

I want a change in Government as much as the next guy. But my kind of
change is as realistic as wishing for a McCain/Biden ticket. :blink:

tsptalk
09-03-2008, 08:33 AM
So let me express my biased view - without BASHING anyone else.
Much appreciated Staedy. I would hope we're all doing that. If this discussion gets out of hand, will someone please let me know? So far it seems pretty clean with the occasional jab, but that's OK. It's the right crosses and left hooks I'm worried about. Thanks!

SkyPilot
09-03-2008, 10:52 AM
Children! Children! So much fuss. My gosh, I go to bed and a world war breaks out.

Actually, this has been quite civil compared to many other discussion over the years. Anyone remember Market Timer? :nuts:

Spaf
09-03-2008, 10:56 AM
I had a mom, kind of like Mrs. Palin. If it wasen't for her I would have been up the creek without a paddle. I was 18 and young to.

rokid
09-03-2008, 11:09 AM
It doesn't appear that I'm changing any minds with my snarky arguments. :laugh:

I continue to be amazed how we all, including myself, see events through our own personal filters and project what we want to project on our favored candidates. I see unqualified, opportunistic, being-used career woman and you see highly qualified, tough, multi-tasking every-mom.

It will be interesting to see how it all turns out.-----Jim

P.S. I was, and still am, for Hillary.

SkyPilot
09-03-2008, 11:46 AM
It doesn't appear that I'm changing any minds with my snarky arguments. :laugh:

I continue to be amazed how we all, including myself, see events through our own personal filters and project what we want to project on our favored candidates. I see unqualified, opportunistic, being-used career woman and you see highly qualified, tough, multi-tasking every-mom.

It will be interesting to see how it all turns out.-----Jim

P.S. I was, and still am, for Hillary.

"unqualified, opportunistic, being-used career woman"

Many would see Hillary in this same light.

However, before this is all done, I would not be suprised to see Hillary come to Gov. Palin's defense much as Geraldine Ferrarro has. All women in politics loose if these smears are allowed to stand unchallenged, as this can easily become the accepted standard. And remember, Hillary will likely run again in four years.

It would be to Sen. Clinton's credit and favor to stand along side Sen. Obama and call for an end to these unwarranted personal smear tactics. While Clinton and Palin have vastly different views on issues, they share a great many interests and experiences, including the sexist attacks they have suffered as they attempt to breach the male dominated political bastions.

And yes, my mother found herself in the situation Briston Palin is now in as well. I wonder how many who have been touched by this family situation will consider Gov. Palin as a sympathetic figure as they can now relate to a previously unknown candidate. The radical left who have promoted these smears are doing their candidate no great favors. Backlash is steadily building, and if Gov. Palin comports herself well tonight in her speech, she has the potential to hand this back with a devestating result, and find many friends where there were no before.

tsptalk
09-03-2008, 11:58 AM
Actually, this has been quite civil compared to many other discussion over the years.
Absolutely. As we've grown and got to know each other over the years, I think we've learned to respect the opinions of the other members. It has turned into a great board and that's why we can have discussions such as these. Those that can't get along with others either leave, or get booted. :)

Guest2
09-03-2008, 12:27 PM
Those that can't get along with others either leave, or get booted.

I've got extra cuffs and CS when needed Tom ! :toung:
The "Boot" is now considered abuse in my line of work ! :laugh:

luv2read
09-03-2008, 12:30 PM
I've got extra cuffs and CS when needed Tom ! :toung:
The "Boot" is now considered abuse in my line of work ! :laugh:
would those be pink velvet cuffs for the ladies?:nuts:;)

Guest2
09-03-2008, 12:36 PM
would those be pink velvet cuffs for the ladies?

As you wish, my dear ! But you'll have to settle for Blue or Black.
We don't do Pink (kinda,,,,Sorta). Black and Blue sends the message :nuts:

luv2read
09-03-2008, 12:48 PM
As you wish, my dear ! But you'll have to settle for Blue or Black.
We don't do Pink (kinda,,,,Sorta). Black and Blue sends the message :nuts:
Maybe we can get some from Sheriff Joe Arpaio in Arizona!:toung:



Pink underwear
One of Arpaio's most visible public relations successes was the introduction of pink (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink) underwear, which the Maricopa County Sheriff's website cites as being "world famous."[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio#cite_note-17) Arpaio has claimed that that traditional white underwear, labeled with Maricopa County Sheriff's Office, was being smuggled out of the jails and sold on the streets, and he thus had the underwear dyed pink, believing that pink is not considered a "macho" color, and would not be stolen.
Arpaio subsequently started to sell customized pink boxers (with the Maricopa County Sheriff's logo and "Go Joe") as a fund-raiser for Sheriff's Posse Association. Despite allegations of misuse of funds received from these sales, Arpaio declined to provide an accounting for the money [19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio#cite_note-18).
Arpaio's success in gaining press coverage with the pink underwear resulted in him extending the use of the color. He introduced pink handcuffs, using the event to promote his book, Sheriff Joe Arpaio, America's Toughest Sheriff. [20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio#cite_note-19). Later, Arpaio ordered that sheets, socks, towels, and other fabric items be dyed pink.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio#Pink_underwear

Silverbird
09-03-2008, 01:59 PM
I think Sarah Palin is a perfect example of a neo-conservative, and I respect her for walking the walk, as well as talking the talk. If I was a neo-conservative, she would be everything I'm looking for. So although I myself would have preferred Huckabee, he's probably too much into forgiveness and compassion. Romney thrives on confrontation so he would not make a good vice president. So, if I was a neo-con evangelical, Sarah Palin be the exact candidate I'd like to see. Since I'm not, well, sorry, not interested, she's about my age, hunts (I fish), and a is working mother but in voting substance should come before style.

CountryBoy
09-03-2008, 02:57 PM
I think Sarah Palin is a perfect example of a neo-conservative, and I respect her for walking the walk, as well as talking the talk. If I was a neo-conservative, she would be everything I'm looking for. So although I myself would have preferred Huckabee, he's probably too much into forgiveness and compassion. Romney thrives on confrontation so he would not make a good vice president. So, if I was a neo-con evangelical, Sarah Palin be the exact candidate I'd like to see. Since I'm not, well, sorry, not interested, she's about my age, hunts (I fish), and a is working mother but in voting substance should come before style.

I'm not a neo-con evangelical, just a student of 54 years of life and experience and she works for me on most things, although everyone's not perfect. Our choices are very often learned from life experiences, maturity, family and family values/morals/ethics up bringing. Although I came from an extended family of yellow dawg dems, and I'm kinda the black sheep. :nuts: they don't have hardly any beliefsor morals of the current lefties, but they'll pull that one lever. Muscle memory I guess. They just won't admit that their party has changed around them.

Keeping it civil, so SB won't bring out those cuffs. :D

CB

luv2read
09-03-2008, 03:01 PM
Keeping it civil, so SB won't bring out those cuffs. :D

CBAw CB, what's the matter? You don't like pink?;):laugh:

Tempest
09-03-2008, 03:26 PM
HAHAHAHA:laugh: An open microphone catches it all

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CrG8w4bb3kg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CrG8w4bb3kg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Braveheart
09-03-2008, 06:29 PM
HAHAHAHA:laugh: An open microphone catches it all

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CrG8w4bb3kg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CrG8w4bb3kg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

SHOCKING IT'S MSNBC - 2 repub's bashing Palin on an opon microphone. Sounds a bit rehearsed to me.

Palin better give the speech of her life tonight no Bull Shi# or it will be over.

nnuut
09-03-2008, 08:02 PM
What the heck is the big deal, two or three people voicing their opinions? It's just starting!!! They will be eating Bear Burgers before long!!:laugh:

Buster
09-03-2008, 08:52 PM
or eating crow for being suck cynical diks.

30 minutes to go for Sarah...It ain't gonna matter how well her speech is..there will be people trearing her down...I will give Osama and Biden credit..telling the media and everyone else, to "leave the children out of it";)


Besides, what's not to like about her?

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x29/mfish6639/sarah_palin11.jpg

James48843
09-03-2008, 08:59 PM
Buster-

You realize that photo is a fake, right?

I'm just asking....


http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/palin.asp

James48843
09-03-2008, 09:04 PM
OK- what are your thoughts about the credibility of this guy?

http://www.pownetwork.org/bios/b/b110.htm

Would you say he is someone whom you would listen to?


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++
From the POW network:


BUTLER, PHILLIP NEAL

Name: Phillip Neal Butler
Rank/Branch: O3/United States Navy
Unit: VA 22
Date of Birth: 11 August 1938
Home City of Record: Tulsa OK
Date of Loss: 20 April 1965
Country of Loss: North Vietnam
Loss Coordinates: 192000 N 1052700E
Status (in 1973): Returnee
Category:
Aircraft/Vehicle/Ground: A4C
Missions: 13

Other Personnel in Incident: none

Source: Compiled by P.O.W. NETWORK March 1997 from one or more of the
following: raw data from U.S. Government agency sources, correspondence with
POW/MIA families, published sources, personal interviews.

REMARKS: 730212 RELEASED BY DRV

SOURCE: WE CAME HOME copyright 1977
Captain and Mrs. Frederic A Wyatt (USNR Ret), Barbara Powers Wyatt, Editor
P.O.W. Publications, 10250 Moorpark St., Toluca Lake, CA 91602
Text is reproduced as found in the original publication (including date and
spelling errors).
UPDATE - 09/95 by the P.O.W. NETWORK, Skidmore, MO

PHILLIP N. BUTLER
Lieutenant Commander - United States Navy
Shot Down: April 20, 1965
Released: February 12, 1973

As I began my first morning of freedom, after seven years and ten months of
captivity, at 4:00 A.M. On 13 February 1973 at Clarke Air Base in the
Philippines, I sat on my clean white hospital bed and gazed out my window at
a stop light that was changing red and green.

I reflected on my past life. How fortunate you are, I thought. Tulsa,
Oklahoma, my home town, friends, family, 13 years of free public education,
four years of free college at the Naval Academy, a commission in the Navy,
pilot's wings, an opportunity to serve my country, and now - a stop light.

What does the stop light mean? It means that no other country in the world
would bother to place such a small safety device in a little used
intersection, and keep it going through the night, just because of the one
in a million chance that it might save a life at 4:00 A.M. No other country
in the world so highly prizes individual life - the dignity of man.

How fortunate you are - you American.

March 1997 Biography - Phillip Neal Butler, Ph.D.

I graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy, class of 1961. Flew the A4C with
VA-22 aboard the USS Midway. I went down at night, over Vinh, on April 20,
1965 from malfunctioning VT fused bombs. Spent 4 days and nights attempting
to evade capture but was finally tracked down by two well-trained german
shepherd dogs. I was repatriated on February 12, 1973.

After spending 10 months in and out of Balboa Naval Hospital I got recurrent
in the A4 at Miramar N.A.S. In January of 1974 I began graduate school in
Social Psychology at the University of California at San Diego. Finished my
course requirements for a Ph.D. in June of 1976 and reported to the Navy
Human Resource Management Center, San Diego. I spent 3 years in this program
during which time I also did the field work for my dissertation. In June of
1979 I reported to the Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey, California for
an assignment on the faculty. Completed my dissertation and was awarded my
Ph.D. in June, 1981. Two weeks later I retired with 20 years and started my
own Organizational Development consulting business.

In 1978, at the 5th San Diego area POW reunion I met Chuck Baldock's little
sister, Barbara. We had our first official "date" a few months later at
President Nixon's house in San Clemente, where we were welcomed as part of
the 5th-anniversary national POW reunion. Barbara and I were married in July
of 1980.

I have been very fortunate since my return home. I have a wonderful marriage
and have experienced great success with my business. Barbara became my
Marketing Director in 1986 at the same time I began adding keynote speaking
to my repertoire of Organizational Development seminars and management
consulting. Barbara and I are also very active in our local community,
currently volunteering for numerous non-profit organizations because we
believe we get back more than we can ever give. I have also taken up the
piano and most recently my brother-in-law has gotten me hooked on golf.

My POW experience was incredibly valuable to me as a life-learning process.
It has enriched me immeasurably, though I would never recommend it to
others. I still get a kick out of a beautiful blue sky, the ocean,
mountains, flowers and even turning the knob on a door to walk through and
go anywhere I want. I learned the importance of community from our
experience, that people who work together can survive and succeed under even
the most powerful oppression and adversity. I also learned the importance of
love in overcoming hate, peace in overcoming conflict or war and respecting
all life as inherently important and worthy of preservation.

March, 1997
Phillip Butler retired from the United States Navy as a Commander. He and
his wife Barbara reside in California.

************************************************** *
It certainly makes for an interesting question:

What do you think?



_KjsEs46C70

luv2read
09-03-2008, 09:08 PM
One reason McCain chose Palin was to draw in the disaffected and die-hard female Hillary supporters who won't have anything to do with Obama. Photos like the ones appearing on this MB are disrespectful to Mrs. Palin and do both her and the RNC a disservice as many women will find them offensive and may in fact repel them rather than draw them in. Posting garbage like this just solidifies the stereotype of the GOP good ole boy..pick a woman to get the female vote but pick a looker that the guys can hoot and holler over. Get your hormones in check and get beyond APPEARANCE. Try to help YOUR party by giving examples of her grit, substance and capabilities, if they exist. Convince the opposition to come over to YOUR side and vote for her. You aren't doing her any favors with this sexist tripe. Grow up and wipe the drool off your chins.

JTH
09-03-2008, 10:22 PM
Great job Sarah!!! :cheesy:

nnuut
09-03-2008, 10:29 PM
Great speech by the next Vice President of the USA. If you missed it you missed a good one!!:cool:

Buster
09-03-2008, 10:42 PM
Buster-

You realize that photo is a fake, right?

I'm just asking....


http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/palin.asp
Yes I do/did..the guy smoking a cig and not drinking Moosehead Beer was the dead give away, huh?....was only a metphorical humor in light of her strong conservitive views.;)

Buster
09-03-2008, 10:44 PM
OK- what are your thoughts about the credibility of this guy?

http://www.pownetwork.org/bios/b/b110.htm

Would you say he is someone whom you would listen to?



Quite the American Hero..I salute him.:)

2EASY
09-03-2008, 10:55 PM
Looks like Obama & Palin went to the same school on giving speaches. Both are "naturals".

Buster
09-04-2008, 07:19 AM
Looks like Obama & Palin went to the same school on giving speaches. Both are "naturals".
Yes perhaps, but there is a difference though, Sarah is sincere;)

SkyPilot
09-04-2008, 07:43 AM
I think Sarah Palin is a perfect example of a neo-conservative, and I respect her for walking the walk, as well as talking the talk. If I was a neo-conservative, she would be everything I'm looking for. So although I myself would have preferred Huckabee, he's probably too much into forgiveness and compassion. Romney thrives on confrontation so he would not make a good vice president. So, if I was a neo-con evangelical, Sarah Palin be the exact candidate I'd like to see. Since I'm not, well, sorry, not interested, she's about my age, hunts (I fish), and a is working mother but in voting substance should come before style.

Just curious, what is your definition of a Neo-Con... as opposed to a traditional conservative?

SkyPilot
09-04-2008, 07:55 AM
OK- what are your thoughts about the credibility of this guy?

http://www.pownetwork.org/bios/b/b110.htm

Would you say he is someone whom you would listen to?



It's sad to see an honored individual like this being used in this way. McCain's service record is not in question, so why use a former POW to attempt a take down? If the Soros group is really offended by this approach, then it seems to be slightly disingenuous to attempt it.

The sad result is this fellow will have traded honor for smear. An unfitting bookend for such a brave hero.

Braveheart
09-04-2008, 08:20 AM
Did Obama get that DNC bounce ? NO

Why did Obama stay only a few points ahead of McCain - Sarah Palin!!!:D

Next week McCain/Obama even or McCain ahead by 3+ points why Palin. :D

Obama torn apart yup the Dems just found out they can have all the Media bias to promote their unqualified candidate and forgot that the media don't vote and while they are trying to sell this man of "HOPE" it is more like "HYPE".

Sarah Palin just kicked the shi* out of Obama and the media in 30 minutes. She was calm and had a smile on her face while doing it. I wonder is Michelle Obama happy now that her husband can write his 3rd book about how he lost an election because his wife didn't want Hillary Clinton as VP and the DNC with Obama were exposed as frauds.

I think Chris Matthews was crying !!! LMAO ;)

Buster
09-04-2008, 08:54 AM
Just curious, what is your definition of a Neo-Con... as opposed to a traditional conservative?
Good question...

Are You a Neocon?


by Daniel McCarthy (dpmccart@artsci.wustl.edu)

Regular readers of LRC or other right-of-center sites are sure to have seen terms like "neoconservative" and "paleo-libertarian" from time to time. A quick Google search can explain what the words mean, but definitions don’t really answer the more interesting and important question – which one are you?
Naturally you might be neither "paleo" nor "neo." But for those who’d like to find out I devised a quick quiz during a spell of procrastination a few months back. Here it is (http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php3?client=zeron). After answering twenty questions it’ll give you my impression of which of ten modern American ideologies is the best fit for you, along with links to sites representing the philosophy of each.
There’s no shortage of political quizzes on the ‘net, but how many others includes "paleoconservative" and "third way" as categories? Not many (or any) that I’ve seen. And to be thoroughly immodest, this quiz is less slanted than most too. I’m a pale-something myself though, so if you find bias that’s where I’m coming from. Other than that the major flaw is that I don’t know modern left-wing ideologies at all well, so the categories of "radical," "liberal" and "third-way" probably are not how leftists would classify themselves.
The quiz questions are mostly about public policy. An alternative method would have been to ask general philosophical questions, or even to ask for interpretations of historical events. I chose the policy-oriented approach because it seemed most straightforward and clear.
Here, in brief, are the ideologies that the quiz examines. You’ll probalby want to take the quiz first (http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php3?client=zeron) though. The sketches below aren’t an answer key, but you can probably deduce from the definitions how someone of a given ideology would answer a particular question. That’s the entire principle of the quiz, after all.
Centrist – Just what it sounds like. Someone who doesn’t have any particularly strong ideological leanings in any direction.
Conservative – Specifically a "fusionist" conservative of the National Review - Heritage Foundation mold. Someone who believes in traditional morality and capitalism, and the need for a limited government to allow both to flourish.
Left-libertarian – The quiz uses a mild definition of a left-libertarian, an anti-statist who is somewhat fearful of corporate and religious influence on public life.
Liberal – Supports economic regulation to promote social justice and takes a progressive stance toward moral or cultural issues.
Libertarian – A libertarian opposes most or all government activites. Does not favor much or any government support for either moral or economic systems.
Neoconservative – A "neocon" is more inclined than other conservatives toward vigorous government in the service of the goals of traditional morality and pro-business policies. Tends to favor a very strong foreign policy of America as well.
Paleoconservative – "Paleocons" want less US involvement in foeign affairs than other conservatives and oppose mass immigration. They are also more favorably disposed toward the South and the idea of secession, or at least decentralization, than neoconservatives.
Paleo-libertarian – Similar to other libertarians except for oppostion to mass immigration, and shares the paleocon appreciation of the South.
Radical – Critical of bouregois morality and strongly opposed to capitalism and willing to use state power to achieve desired ends.
Third-way – More supportive of foreign intervention than liberals and less supportive of economic regulation, coupled with more-or-less progressive social views. "Third-way" is to liberal what neoconservative is to conservative.



Question yourself as to what you are...
http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php?client=zeron

Steadygain
09-04-2008, 08:57 AM
Sarah Palin just kicked the shi* out of Obama and the media in 30 minutes. She was calm and had a smile on her face while doing it.

Last night I thought the others talked on and on in circles and it just sounded like a bunch of junk - so I'd change the channel and come back here and there.

Then SARAH came on and we were on top of the world. We both thought, too bad she's not running for President. But I reminded Ann that only after we get her in Office and she shows herself as a good VP will she be "most ready" to take over the next time around.

My family was very impressed.


BTW Buster - when I read things like "labels that go over my head" - I just blow it off; so when I first read the post expressing these labels "it made me lose sight of whatever he was saying".

Buster
09-04-2008, 09:12 AM
BTW Buster - when I read things like "labels that go over my head" - I just blow it off; so when I first read the post expressing these labels "it made me lose sight of whatever he was saying".


Just fodder for thought Steady, Now you can be in the know and have a mental reference to what people mean by these labels.;)

Silverbird
09-04-2008, 09:37 AM
It was a good speech, but the Republicans had the majority in Congress in 6 of the last 8 years, and the deficits started under their watch. Bush threatened to veto most of the bills that were "Pay as you go" in the last 2 years. So I guess the Way is to keep the debt instead of raise taxes to pay for it??

Paying off the deficit is going to take $$ so you need to raise taxes. Should have raised taxes or issued war bonds to pay for Iraq and Afganistan but it's too late for war bonds now - Iraq is too controversial and has turned into a huge money pit.

On the test, I get nearly a tie with third way and liberal, so I guess I'm between those two somewhere. Locally was voting Republican until the Republican Congressional candidate in the last election was an immigration lawyer who was the head of Prince William County's Republican Party, and this time is a real estate appraiser (not supported by the Party, he's using $1 million of his own money). Used to be, the Democrats were too far to the left, and the Republicans were centralist, but now Webb's a Democrat. Crazy world.

SkyPilot
09-04-2008, 10:02 AM
It was a good speech, but the Republicans had the majority in Congress in 6 of the last 8 years, and Bush threatened to veto most of the bills that were "Pay as you go" in the last 2 years. So I guess the Way is to keep the debt instead of raise taxes to pay for it??

On the test, I get nearly a tie with third way and liberal, so I guess I'm between those two somewhere.

If you believe that raising taxes increases revenue, you would be correct (sort of, and only temporarily).

However, revenue has increased substantially with decreased taxes. Ultimately, it is not the tax rate that has been the problem but rather the spending that has been the issue. In this case, neither party can claim stewardship over the last several years. And in the case of the Dems rise to power over the last two years, they have not delivered the reforms that they promised in this regard.

Raising taxes will likely reduce revenue as it throttles investment and productivity, kind of like eating the seed corn instead of planting it. Europe has followed this doctrine for years and has devastated their economies.

I believe the Republican party has /is trying to say that they will lower taxes and reduce spending. That means reducing entitlements, which is a daunting task and I am not sure that this can be done. While I approve the sentiment, they have not delivered due to their spending as well.

In the case of Social Security and Medicare, the taxes that fund these will likely have to be raised as these programs have not kept up with their promises. One suggestion is to raise the upper tax rate limit on Social Security so that one pays taxes on more of their income at the same rate than limiting it to a couple hundred thousand dollars of income. Effectively, those with higher personal incomes will pay more for Social Security benefits than they contribute, which is probably unfair but the program is hopelessly over obligated, and one that can't be remedied with spending cuts.

However, to raise taxes will likely stifle growth and cut revenues ending up with a net loss of income. Essentially then, tax rate dictate tax revenue, lower rates greater revenue based on growth.

But this is only a single view of tax policy, but one that was largely adopted by both Democratic (JFK for instance) and Republican administrations until roughly the Carter administration.

In summary, cut spending, reduce taxes, increase revenue.

SkyPilot
09-04-2008, 10:08 AM
I thought I was a neo-con, but it seems that I'm a libertarian. Get government out of my backyard. But, I am a gov't employee and I am in your backyard. Hmmmmmmmmm.....:confused:

Silverbird
09-04-2008, 10:18 AM
I think these labels are, just that, labels. Just because you don't like Government intervention doesn't mean you don't think there are times it is necessary. Your sterotypical Libertarian, doesn't want laws, so labeling "very little Government intervention" as "Libertarian" is rather misleading.

Reagan raised taxes to pay off the deficit and the economy did fine under him (AND I admit this when his foreign policy gave me white hair). I don't know where you get any more money if we can't even keep our food supply safe. I'm a pay as you go fan. Can't help it.

Aviator_Guy
09-04-2008, 10:35 AM
She hit a homerun last night at the RNC. I haven’t heard anyone control a crowd like that since Regan. Her delivery, humor and timing was absolutely perfect. I know she was in a friendly GOP crowd, but it was an outstanding speech. I noticed that James Carvel lost his grin when interviewed to comment on Palin. :cool::cool:

SkyPilot
09-04-2008, 10:49 AM
I think these labels are, just that, labels. Just because you don't like Government intervention doesn't mean you don't think there are times it is necessary. Your sterotypical Libertarian, doesn't want laws, so labeling "very little Government intervention" as "Libertarian" is rather misleading.

Reagan raised taxes to pay off the deficit and the economy did fine under him (AND I admit this when his foreign policy gave me white hair). I don't know where you get any more money if we can't even keep our food supply safe. I'm a pay as you go fan. Can't help it.

Are you saying Reagan's administration paid off the deficit? I thought that happened under Clinton when we failed to use revenues to fund the military and called it a "peace dividend"? You are likely right though, and I will concede the point in this case if accurate.

However, I believe you have confused the term Libertarian with Anarchist. Libertarians are not against having a lawful society. The ability to be a Libertarian (derived from the word liberty) depends on a lawful and orderly society.

The Libertarian rather decries the role of government to make laws that oppress and diminish personal liberty. The Libertarian fully embraces the the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and the Democratic Process in the form of a Republic representative government. Libertarians tend to be Populist in their expression.

However, among Libertarians you will still find nuance and disagreement as to how these ideals are observed. Part and parcel of being a Libertarian.

The Anarchist is opposed to law, rule of law and social order. That is to say "no archy" such as hierarchy, matriarchy, patriarchy, etc...

Buster
09-04-2008, 11:17 AM
Just the Facts Ma'am....http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/blackstangs281/Avatars/not_happy.gif


ST. PAUL, Minn. - Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and her Republican supporters held back little Wednesday as they issued dismissive attacks on Barack Obama and flattering praise on her credentials to be vice president. In some cases, the reproach and the praise stretched the truth.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_fact_check

Steadygain
09-04-2008, 11:28 AM
She hit a homerun last night at the RNC. I haven’t heard anyone control a crowd like that since Regan. Her delivery, humor and timing was absolutely perfect. I know she was in a friendly GOP crowd, but it was an outstanding speech :cool::cool:

Right on my friend - and this is from someone deeply committed to Obama up until Sarah came along.

You have a GREAT signiture!!

It's hard for me to read a lot of the posts because I have no clue what the names mean - please pretend we're all in the 3rd grade.

Silverbird
09-04-2008, 11:30 AM
Reagan tax increases: see TEFRA, Gas Tax, Social Security age changes. Looks like I'm wrong about it paying off the entire Reagan deficit, however, some of it went to Clinton. :embarrest: I'm running into connecting references again (when all your information eventually refers back to the same source, run for the hills).

SkyPilot
09-04-2008, 11:38 AM
Reagan tax increases: see TEFRA, Gas Tax, Social Security age changes. Looks like I'm wrong about it paying off the entire Reagan deficit, however, some of it went to Clinton. :embarrest: I'm running into connecting references again (when all your information eventually refers back to the same source, run for the hills).

That's okay... were' all honestly trying to understand and discern fact and truth (not always, or even usually, the same thing). And I truly believe that most of us want what is best, though we may have really legitimate disagreements on what "best" is, or if we do agree, how we should get there.

Tempest
09-04-2008, 02:22 PM
So Abstinance as a 'Family Value' got ditched by Republicans this year?

Geeez the RNC is just laughable.
Insert Lily Tomlin quote here:

"No matter how cynical I get I can't keep up."


I really thought this would be a close race with McCain taking it.
Palin brings nothing to the table. Nothing but a pretty face.
McCain chose the wrong person for V.P. and the RNC can't win without having some political/economic narrative that appeals to Independents or Democrats.
But McCain thinks he can beat Obama because Obama has no experience and he knows some people just won't EVER vote for a black man. House of Cards if that's McCain's strategy. Pity him - McCain could have won it with the right V.P. Obama beat the Clinton Political Tag Team (McCain is not even in Bill Clinton's league when it comes to raw political smarts and infighting).
And say what you want about Obama (whether you like him or not)-Obama's crowds are larger in America then McCains.

"Washington Elitists-Liberal Media' blather worked once when times were flush but it won't work in 2004. Hint: People don't think about that when pumping $4.00 gasoline or having a hard time with mortgage payments due to unfortunate circumstances or buying something they couldn't afford to begin with. Or college students have no jobs or have crushing loans to pay (college students do vote). You can go on about 'experience' and being 'tested'. But I've run across quite a few people in my 55 years who were experienced and 'tested' (whatever 'tested' is -whores and old buildings that are still around have been 'tested') and the sad fact is the 'community organizer' is one smart cookie-a cold calculator and is 'tested'. He hears what's in the streets and he knows what he has to say to get elected. It isn't your past war experience that's going to win this race it's your political smarts.
The Clinton's (Slick Willy and Hill') didn't give Barack Hussein Obama anything; Barry took it away from them (and beat out 9 other candidates for the nomination-some 'experienced' politicos). The Clinton's underestimated him AND he learned a lot before he decided to take them on (The arrogance-the WILL to even think that and then DO IT-should give someone pause when you really think about it.)

McCain better win this election-if for no other reason -on a personal level-he will never accept defeat from Obama. Bill Clinton is still sputtering with rage what happened to Hillary as he is forced to smile and campaign for Obama.
Gawd I couldn't be a politician-you really have to be a doormat.

I read Obama book-'Dreams from my Father'. Wanted to see what the hoopla was about. I don't watch TV only get my info from the INTERNET and books-lotsa books. What I got out of Obama's book was this guy has been thinking about being President since his days in the Illinois legislature.
Earilier no-but by the time he wrote this book yeah-he was dreaming already about being President in 1995. You can dismiss his experience as a 'Community Organizer' at your peril- it was a tough school and he learned a lot.
It's tougher then being Mayor of a small town in Alaska. Far more rejection to.
And he was doing it for years.
Obama is very well traveled (for not being in the military)-more then most Americans I might add. Very comfortable living in areas not even close to mainstream America-not scared at all. The composite characters Obama used in his narrative tells me already he was covering his tracks. Whatever you may think about Harvard ('A bastion of Liberals' blah blah blah) Obama was head of the Harvard Law Review. He doesn't write much (or give away much) how he attained that. Harvard Law doesn't give that to you-you have to earn it and fight for it. And if you think he it was given to him because he was 'Black' -well he wasn't the only black law student. I'd like to know the machinations and infighting he used to get that job. But he would be giving away too much if he laid that out. Head of Harvard Law Review is a necessary ticket if you to go to a Wall Street Law firm or clerk for a Supreme Court Justice.
Not him.
He had something else in mind as an ambition in law school-though it wasn't fully formed yet at that time. He will still rolling a goal around in his mind. Smart, observing and restless.

You strip away the bull$hit about 'NObama' (and there are forum strings and truckloads of it from the Left and Right-maybe even my post ;)) and look at Obama dispassionately and what you see is a quick learner, a man that leaves few fingerprints on positions, focused and always, always observing (You get that from his book-he can't hide that). Oh yeah and ambition or more accurately, a DRIVE.
He can give a good speech.
To tell you the truth I find him a rather cold man (that's why I don't care for him) just as I find McCain a stupid man.
There I said it-Obama smarter then McCain. That's why Obama will beat him.

Obama has very strong sense of himself. That is his strength and weakness.

Haven't read McCain's book. I stay away from ghost written books. Always have. (JFK's Profiles in Courage was ghost written-I passed on that to.)


For the record I'm half black and half white (I'm not as dark as Obama) and I lived in Hawaii since 1988. I comprehend what Obama is talking about living in 2 worlds racially. Yet I had it easier then him since I don't look as 'black'. My experience is different-but my observation no less acute. Obama moved a lot (lived in Asia, Oceania [Hawaii] and US Mainland)-I moved a lot-military brat- (4 High Schools in 3 years- 2 continents)
But there the similarity ends.


I'm really sitting this election out-and feel good about it to.

None of the above is my choice.

Before I read the Obama book I finished MAO by Jung Chang. Real page turner. It was about..well.. read the title.
Next up 'IKE:An American Hero' by Michael Korda.

And if you think it's hard to believe somebody could be this calculating on becoming President so loooonnnng (yeah-it's all done by focus groups and media bias - right? heh)then look up the Volumn One "The Path To Power: The Years of Lyndon Johnson" by Robert Caro. See the INTRODUCTION 'Patterns' pgs XIII to XVI how in 1940 two very rich brothers from Texas; Herman and George Brown (Founders of Brown and Root now known today as KBR. Yeah that 'KBR') who had this small Texas congressman their pocket and have really taken a liking to.
They wanted to make him rich.
Because the congressman is poor.
And they make him this offer while they are at Greenbrier-a beautiful resort for the rich and powerful
They want to give him some oil wells by floating him a loan with no interest he can buy the oil wells with.

But the poor Congressman doesn't want that. And he turns them down flat while surround in a setting of wealth and power that he enjoys-but can't afford.


It's one of the most beautifully written political narratives I've read.
Wish I had wrote it.
Should be required reading in every American History and Political Science class.

It won't be a landslide-but it won't be close.
Obama.

I'm outta here.

nnuut
09-04-2008, 02:27 PM
I shall be brief!! NAH!!!4589

SkyPilot
09-04-2008, 02:39 PM
I'm outta here.

Outta here? Wait a minute, no one gets a drive-by... otherwise, you just spammed us.

Palin only brings a "pretty face? Sexist and partisan all at the same time. Did you actually listen to the speech? She engaged on special needs advocacy, energy policy, economic policy, and also much of what her record demonstrates. She may have different politics than you do, but avoid these divisive statements.

Just because the neo-cons and evangelicals didn't respond to the pregnancy the way that the stereotype demands shouldn't be a basis for scepticism. To paint evangelicals as unloving, unforgiving and should be expected to join the political trashing of a young girl is to misunderstand the true heart of a grace based theology.

I know much about this, as we have both been associated with same church organization most of our lives. This is a tyical response to families in this situation.

Yes, we promote abstinence as the best way. Who will really argue? And yes, it does not work when it is ignored (much like other forms of birth control and integrity education).

However, we are not going to throw stones. But rather, as Christ taught us, none of us are without sin "so go and sin no more... " :)

Regarding political narrative; what has the Obama campaign been about if not narrative?

And please, remain civil and forgo the barnyard explitives.

Obama is smarter? Maybe, but he has yet to demonstrate this supposition, and until he does, only his academic degree may be able to speak to this, and that would paint him as an elitist, which I believe Obama is trying to dispell...

Don't just spam us... join the conversation, offer your thoughts and don't just presume to "educate" us. That comes of as condescending and demeaning, and I don't really think you mean to do that.

These kind of arguments will persuade very few who participate on this board. While we agree to disagree agreably, we take a dim view when we are "talked down to"... Stick around and let's have a real, value discussion, don't just dump on us.

So, don't just "I'm outta here"...

kinda rude...

Frixxxx
09-04-2008, 03:01 PM
Outta here? Wait a minute, no one gets a drive-by... otherwise, you just spammed us......

VALID POINTS

So, don't just "I'm outta here"...

kinda rude...

Saved me the narrative myself Skypilot!

Well Said!:cool:

tsptalk
09-04-2008, 03:02 PM
There I said it-Obama smarter then McCain. That's why Obama will beat him.
Since when did smarts determine the winner? We all know it's height, hair, and wit (popularity). :D McCain needed serious help, but he may have gotten it.

CountryBoy
09-04-2008, 03:09 PM
Very well said SkyPilot. He doesn't understand the forgiveness and understanding of conservatives at all. Abstinance has always been a 'Family Value' that my entire extended family, libs and conservatives alike taught us.

We all, at least in my part of the country, are taught right and wrong, but kids do stupid things and think they are invincable. I actually gained a little respect for obama when he said right off, that the kids are off limits, it's too bad his followers aren't as forgiving. It's comments like that, that has really soured me on so many so called tolerant people from the left side and they actually believe the sterotypical conservative that we're bigoted, unforgiving and could care less about the poor, not very well read or needs to expand his genre. Numerous polls show that red states are more charitable than blue states. Very little is being said about Biden's kids getting their tails caught in a crack with the hedge funds. Politics are about adults not kids.

It's sad but true, how so many libs are jumping for joy about her pregnant daughter. I work with 2 just like him, that are wetting themselves with excitement that she is pregnant. What does that say about the party of tolerance? You really can't discuss anything with someone with a mind set like that. You called it correct... it's just spam.

CB

SkyPilot
09-04-2008, 03:24 PM
I don't watch TV only get my info from the INTERNET and books-lotsa books.

This is actually helpful, and explains much about what you have expressed.

Books good,

Internet, well...

Maybe you should at least listen to the radio, maybe pick up a newspaper, read a magazine, talk to friends and neighbors.

Hey, even watch a news show on TV once in a while. All info is filtered, but the more sources you have, the more likely you can discern a clearer image.

The internet is kinda like the bathroom wall, any one can write on it, and no one can tell who, or what...

camper65
09-04-2008, 03:55 PM
"He doesn't understand the forgiveness and understanding of conservatives at all. "




You must be talking about compassionate conservatives like Phil Gram”?

tsptalk
09-04-2008, 04:31 PM
Hey, even watch a news show on TV once in a while. All info is filtered, but the more sources you have, the more likely you can discern a clearer image.
Speaking of TV, I was watching msnbc last night after Palin's speech. They had a poll asking how you felt about Palin now, etc... and they posted results. It was like 66% or 68% - I am LESS LIKELY to vote for her, and 16% or 18% I am MORE LIKELY to vote for her.

I have nothing to prove it, but I seriously doubt those results, unless Olbermann, who was showing the results, was sitting there continuously clicking "less".

I went to AOL to see if they had a similar poll, which they did, and the results were the opposite (and AOL poll results tend to lean more left than right, in general I have noticed). Could they have faked the results on msnbc, was it a mistake, or did nearly 7 out of 10 people watching that speech really say they are now less likely to vote for her? Perhaps their audience is more democratic and 7 of 10 weren't voting for her anyway.

I don't care which side of the fence you are on, it was a good speech and those poll results seemed "odd".

JTH
09-04-2008, 04:36 PM
Could they have faked the results on msnbc, was it a mistake, or did nearly 7 out of 10 people watching that speech really say they are now less likely to vote for her? Perhaps their audience is more democratic and 7 of 10 weren't voting for her anyway.

I don't care which side of the fence you are on, it was a good speech and those poll results seemed "odd".

I agree with your assessment. The problem is the far left is very passionate about their views and very intolerant of others who don't agree with them. I have no doubt they flooded the polls trying to influence the outcome.

Anyone notice a slight difference between the riots at the GOP vs the protest at the DNC? All these supposed anarchist are nothing more then hypocrites.

uscs344
09-04-2008, 04:49 PM
I thought it was an excellent speech. She seems honest and true to the common folk. I will have to do my research on her now. I kinda wish she was running for president.

SkyPilot
09-04-2008, 04:50 PM
Speaking of TV, I was watching msnbc last night after Palin's speech. They had a poll asking how you felt about Palin now, etc... and they posted results. It was like 66% or 68% - I am LESS LIKELY to vote for her, and 16% or 18% I am MORE LIKELY to vote for her.

I have nothing to prove it, but I seriously doubt those results, unless Olbermann, who was showing the results, was sitting there continuously clicking "less".

I went to AOL to see if they had a similar poll, which they did, and the results were the opposite (and AOL poll results tend to lean more left than right, in general I have noticed). Could they have faked the results on msnbc, was it a mistake, or did nearly 7 out of 10 people watching that speech really say they are now less likely to vote for her? Perhaps their audience is more democratic and 7 of 10 weren't voting for her anyway.

I don't care which side of the fence you are on, it was a good speech and those poll results seemed "odd".

Exactly, in that if you were at all likely to vote for her, that presupposes that at least on some level you agreed with her. And, if you agreed with her, there is nothing in her speech that would have substantially alienated her base. Rather, the contrary, the base would be energized and inspired.

Those who would not vote for her in the first place would not be moved.

But those moderates who haven't been sold on the Democratic ticket after the best efforts of last weeks convention are very accessable for the GOP.



MSNBC employees Olbermann, so what else needs to be said?

tsptalk
09-04-2008, 04:51 PM
Anyone notice a slight difference between the riots at the GOP vs the protest at the DNC? All these supposed anarchist are nothing more then hypocrites.
I noticed, and agree, the extreme left is very passionate about their views, but then again, so are the extreme right.

tsptalk
09-04-2008, 04:53 PM
I thought it was an excellent speech. She seems honest and true to the common folk. I will have to do my research on her now. I kinda wish she was running for president.
To be honest, I cringed a little and was a little dissapointed that Palin went as negative as she did. Some was expected, but I think Rudy, Mitt and Huckabee took care of that and maybe it should have been a little more about what she has done for Alaska and can do for the country, etc. I doubt slinging dirt is going to be her strength.

SkyPilot
09-04-2008, 05:07 PM
To be honest, I cringed a little and was a little dissapointed that Palin went as negative as she did. Some was expected, but I think Rudy, Mitt and Huckabee took care of that and maybe it should have been a little more about what she has done for Alaska and can do for the country, etc. I doubt slinging dirt is going to be her strength.

However, the best defense is often the best offense. While I doubt that she will have to do this every time she speaks, it was a tactical move to show her ability to play in this league. That will give pause to those who would see her as weak and vulnerable. A bit goes a long way, and this was quite a bit, and may be a wee bit much.

And, the VP's traditional job has been to do this very thing, much as Joe Biden did. But, it's easy to forget what Sen. Biden said an eternity ago last week.

Frixxxx
09-04-2008, 05:18 PM
However, the best defense is often the best offense. While I doubt that she will have to do this every time she speaks, it was a tactical move to show her ability to play in this league. That will give pause to those who would see her as weak and vulnerable. A bit goes a long way, and this was quite a bit, and may be a wee bit much.

And, the VP's traditional job has been to do this very thing, much as Joe Biden did. But, it's easy to forget what Sen. Biden said an eternity ago last week.
What I love is everyone going after Palin's daughter and her teenage pregnancy oops sighting family values...

Speaking of family values, let's look at Biden's Family:

http://www.finalternatives.com/node/5318

Which is the lesser of two evils?:cool:

luv2read
09-04-2008, 05:39 PM
While we're at it, let's look at Mr. McCain's family values. He does have an ex wife and three children from that marriage. He abandoned her.

rokid
09-04-2008, 05:54 PM
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184086&title=sarah-palin-gender-card

Enjoy. :rolleyes:----Jim

nnuut
09-04-2008, 06:03 PM
Folks, I think this political stuff is getting out of hand, why don't we talk about RELIGION, or maybe -- HOW TO MAXIMIZE YOUR TSP ACCOUNT----4592

JTH
09-04-2008, 06:03 PM
While we're at it, let's look at Mr. McCain's family values. He does have an ex wife and three children from that marriage. He abandoned her.

Agreed, McCain is not what I'd call a family man. I imagine the military and his personality have much to do with his inability to form close realtionships. It's a sad and well overlooked fact that McCain is an utter failure as a husband.

SkyPilot
09-04-2008, 06:04 PM
.........

luv2read
09-04-2008, 06:06 PM
Mods, how about locking the Sarah Palin Thread in World Affairs? Conventions are over.

I agree, lets get back to TSP TALK and WORLD affairs, not candidates affairs...

Steadygain
09-04-2008, 06:15 PM
...

SkyPilot
09-04-2008, 06:17 PM
.........

tsptalk
09-04-2008, 06:18 PM
I don't know if we need to lock it, but I agree it is kind of a futile discussion at this point. I think most of us have already formed our opinions and won't be changing anyone's minds.

So, use this thread to talk possible strategy, but I think the mud slinging can stop.

New topic:

If the Reps win, Palin will have a brand new TSP account! The new TSP rules put her money in the L-funds by default. Where should she put her money? Which TSP funds are Barrack, John, and Joe in? ;)

SkyPilot
09-04-2008, 06:19 PM
........

SkyPilot
09-04-2008, 06:20 PM
I don't know if we need to lock it, but I agree it is kind of a futile discussion at this point. I think most of us have already formed our opinions and won't be changing anyone's minds.

So, use this thread to talk possible strategy, but I think the mud slinging can stop.

New topic:

If the Reps win, Palin will have a brand new TSP account! The new TSP rules put her money in the L-funds by default. Where should she put her money? Which TSP funds are Barrack, John, and Joe in? ;)
I agree! :)

luv2read
09-04-2008, 06:26 PM
I don't know if we need to lock it, but I agree it is kind of a futile discussion at this point. I think most of us have already formed our opinions and won't be changing anyone's minds.

So, use this thread to talk possible strategy, but I think the mud slinging can stop.

New topic:

If the Reps win, Palin will have a brand new TSP account! The new TSP rules put her money in the L-funds by default. Where should she put her money? Which TSP funds are Barrack, John, and Joe in? ;)
I'll take bets that IF they contribute, they all contribute just 5% to get the matching funds and that's all, and that it's in G the guaranteed winner.

tsptalk
09-04-2008, 06:28 PM
I'll take bets that IF they contribute, they all contribute just 5% to get the matching funds and that's all, and that it's in G the guaranteed winner.
I think Biden subscribes to Revshark. :)

nnuut
09-04-2008, 06:29 PM
Mods, how about locking the Sarah Palin Thread in World Affairs? Conventions are over.

I agree, lets get back to TSP TALK and WORLD affairs, not candidates affairs...
NO! but I think we should remember why we are here! Don't forget, think about the HATCH ACT and continue on. I am very opinionated myself and understand!! Any suggestions?
Norman

rokid
09-04-2008, 06:32 PM
I agree it is kind of a futile discussion at this point. I think most of us have already formed our opinions and won't be changing anyone's minds.

True, True. I'm standing down. Good luck to McCain and Obama.:)---Jim

P.S. The Hatch Act doesn't apply.

nnuut
09-04-2008, 06:47 PM
True, True. I'm standing down. Good luck to McCain and Obama.:)---Jim

P.S. The Hatch Act doesn't apply.
DEPENDS WHAT YOU PROMOTE!! Opinions are OK, but don't exceed that by promoting any candidate.:cool:

James48843
09-04-2008, 07:26 PM
DEPENDS WHAT YOU PROMOTE!! Opinions are OK, but don't exceed that by promoting any candidate.:cool:

The Hatch Act IS applicable in cyberspace.

But the Hatch Act does NOT prohibit most federal employees from expressing support or opposition to one or another candidate. The Democrat Reforms of the Hatch Act in the 1990's changed the rules, and now, for MOST employees, it is perfectly acceptable to express an opinion on the candidates-

Just don't post an invitation asking people for money for one or the other, and you should be fine.

SOME agencies are covered with a prevention on partisan activity, but the VAST majority are not. For the vast majority, you are free to post all you want (From home) for or against any candidate:

http://osc.gov/ha_fed.htm

Here is what the Hatch Act allows people who are federal employees do:
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Permitted/Prohibited Activities for Employees Who May Participate in Partisan Political Activity

These federal and D.C. employees may-

be candidates for public office in nonpartisan elections
register and vote as they choose
assist in voter registration drives
express opinions about candidates and issues
contribute money to political organizations
attend political fundraising functions
attend and be active at political rallies and meetings
join and be an active member of a political party or club
sign nominating petitions
campaign for or against referendum questions, constitutional amendments, municipal ordinances
campaign for or against candidates in partisan elections
make campaign speeches for candidates in partisan elections
distribute campaign literature in partisan elections
hold office in political clubs or parties
These federal and D.C. employees may not-

use official authority or influence to interfere with an election
solicit or discourage political activity of anyone with business before their agency
solicit or receive political contributions (may be done in certain limited situations by federal labor or other employee organizations)
be candidates for public office in partisan elections
engage in political activity while:

on duty
in a government office
wearing an official uniform
using a government vehicle

wear partisan political buttons on duty
-------------------------------------------------


Bottom line for most of us:
1, Don't engage while on duty.
2. Don't use a overnment vehilce to do it.
3. Don't ask anyone for money or collect money to do it.

Follow the above rules, and you are fine.

James48843
09-04-2008, 07:34 PM
oops- spelling error.

Wait one.

rokid
09-04-2008, 08:06 PM
Basically, don't use your federal position or federal resources to support a candidate. Don't lean on your employees. However, you can have, and express, political opinions outside of work.----Jim

James48843
09-04-2008, 08:41 PM
Roger that.


Hey- did you see Governor Romney's attack on federal employees last night?

Here is my response.....


6wchWA88zYc

Buster
09-05-2008, 02:52 PM
Roger that.


Hey- did you see Governor Romney's attack on federal employees last night?

Here is my response.....



6wchWA88zYc

Good one Jim;)

nnuut
09-05-2008, 03:06 PM
The Hatch Act IS applicable in cyberspace.

But the Hatch Act does NOT prohibit most federal employees from expressing support.

Thanks Jim now we all know what we can and cannot do, good info!!:D

James48843
09-06-2008, 07:08 AM
President of United Steel Workers responds to Palin's trotting out her steelworker husband-

Sarah Palin, explain yourself, or stop using the USW as a prop

Posted September 3, 2008 at 5:02 pm, in From the President (http://blog.usw.org/category/from-the-president/)
http://blog.usw.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/leo_gerard1-150x150.jpg (http://blog.usw.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/leo_gerard1-150x150.jpg)

By Leo W. Gerard
International President

When presumptive Republican presidential nominee John McCain introduced Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as his intended vice presidential running mate, those of us in the lower 48 learned that her husband, Todd Palin, not only was a champion snowmobiler and commercial fisherman but also a steelworker.

At the press conference, Palin trotted him out, stressing his steelworker credentials. Here’s a good union man, she emphasized.

But his United Steelworker card doesn’t include an automatic auxiliary membership for her. Or her running mate at the top of the Republican ticket, McCain, whose record on labor issues would require some serious penance before he could ever earn a union card.

John McCain opposes the Employee Free Choice Act, which would enable workers to collectively bargain and secure contracts with corporations more easily, like the employment contracts CEOs demand to have with corporations. McCain has jeopardized retirement by championing Bush’s privatization scheme for social security. McCain has voted for every American-job-killing free trade deal, without regard to human rights or environmental standards. And he has proposed, instead of providing health insurance for all Americans, a plan to tax the insurance of those lucky enough to still have employer-provided coverage.

Ms. Palin needs to stop trotting out her husband as an exhibit until she explains her positions on workers’ issues. Just exactly where does she stand on the Employee Free Choice Act?

Her family has benefitted from her husband’s ability to be part of a labor union. Workers in labor organizations earn higher wages and are more likely to have pensions and health insurance. Because he works for BP and is a member of the USW, which collectively bargained a good contract for workers at BP, Todd Palin earns a good wage and has good health insurance. The Employee Free Choice Act would make it easier for other Americans to join unions and earn better money and obtain health insurance. Polling shows that 70 percent of Americans support for the Employee Free Choice Act.

Inquiring minds want to know, Ms. Palin. Where do you stand on Employee Free Choice? Where do you stand on privatization of social security? Where do you stand on job-killing free trade?

Are you with McCain – and against workers – on these issues? If so, you need to stop using your husband’s membership in the USW as a prop, because then his union card cannot possibly cover up your or John McCain’s worker-savaging positions.

More: http://blog.usw.org/2008/09/03/sarah-palin-explain-yourself-or-stop-using-the-usw-as-a-prop/

Buster
09-06-2008, 10:37 AM
Now that's just stupid..She gave them kudos and they are whining about it?:confused::mad:

Just goes to show you, you can't never win with these idiots..way to bite the tit that will feed you Gerard:suspicious:

McDuck
09-06-2008, 12:19 PM
Roger that.


Hey- did you see Governor Romney's attack on federal employees last night?

Here is my response.....


6wchWA88zYc


The Government Unions did nothing to help us prevent the IFT limits. The union heads just care of themselves and forget about the workers. We (the workers) are on their own even if they pay dues.

McDuck
09-06-2008, 12:27 PM
I think Biden subscribes to Revshark. :)

I bet Shia-Pet head does not pay for it out of his pocket. Some credit-card-company's lobbyist pays for it.

tsptalk
09-06-2008, 01:44 PM
I was kidding Greg.

CountryBoy
09-06-2008, 02:21 PM
Unions sure have done wonders for the Auto and Airline industry. Union leaders are out to just line their own pockets. Yeah our Fed Employee Union really took a stand for us.

CB

rokid
09-06-2008, 04:17 PM
Well since we're still discussing this, I searched Snopes.com for Sarah Palin information. Apparently, this letter, written by Anne Kilkenny, has been making the rounds on the Internet. Snopes.com checked it out and Anne Kilkenny does exist, does live in Wasilla, and confirms that she wrote the letter.

One of the most interesting (scary) items for me was the claim that the Wasilla city fathers made Ms. Palin hire a town administrator because she was in danger of being recalled for her firings of town employees. If she can't run a city of 5,000...She also took over a town with zero debt and managed to run up a $22M deficit.

Overall Ms. Kilkenny does not paint a very pretty picture of the potential Vice President.---Jim

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/kilkenny.asp

McDuck
09-06-2008, 09:01 PM
Well since we're still discussing this, I searched Snopes.com for Sarah Palin information. Apparently, this letter, written by Anne Kilkenny, has been making the rounds on the Internet. Snopes.com checked it out and Anne Kilkenny does exist, does live in Wasilla, and confirms that she wrote the letter.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/kilkenny.asp

Anybody can say anything about anybody in a letter. That does not mean it any of it is true.

James48843
09-06-2008, 09:11 PM
Anybody can say anything about anybody in a letter. That does not mean it any of it is true.\


Greg:

What if all of it was true?

Would it make a difference to you at all?

Just curious.

jon
09-06-2008, 09:23 PM
Good research Rokid. Ms. Kilkenny is a brave woman to talk about Palin.

For example its easy to be on the right side of bravery in America by immediately claiming support for our troops and rightfully so. Yet, how many Americans were willing to risk the consequences of using their freedom of thought and speech to challenge the overwhelming majority conventional "group think" that lead to not only thousands of deaths of our troops in Iraq, but hundreds of thousands of Iraqis?

When Bush and Cheney were using retoric to claim evidence of WMD, it seemed clear to me that anyone should have known that B&C had no evidence, unless they were hiding it to protect national security...
But how could presenting evidence of WMD damage national security?

Well as a DoD employee then, I didn't speak out publicly for fear of damaging my financial security and what difference would my opinion have made anyway without any evidence? Many know that the public reputations of whistle blowers in America tend to be just above dirt, yet they are often our first, first line defenders of freedom and truth.

So what does this have to do with Palin and Kilkerry? Kilkerry seems like a tough and brave American to not only say some good things, but some scary things about Palin. If what Kilkerry says is true, about Palin's treachery and requiring (in my opinion) Communist like allegiance from acquaintances and employees, then we must remember our troops are now fighting many Warriors of God.

rokid
09-06-2008, 09:43 PM
Anybody can say anything about anybody in a letter. That does not mean it any of it is true.

Possibly, however, Ms. Kilkenny's letter was published in The Nation and referenced in a N.Y. Times article.

If it's not true, then Ms. Palin should address the allegations quickly and directly. I wouldn't want her to get "Swift Boated" like John Kerry did in 2004.:rolleyes:

McDuck
09-06-2008, 10:18 PM
\


Greg:

What if all of it was true?

Would it make a difference to you at all?

Just curious.

Jimbo,

Does what his preacher of 20 years/mentor says make a difference to you at all?

How about his wife saying that she had never been proud of her country and that is a down-right mean country?

Just curious.

James48843
09-06-2008, 11:46 PM
Jimbo,

Does what his preacher of 20 years/mentor says make a difference to you at all?

I think I was pretty familiar with what was actually said by the preacher, and what context it was said in. And, as a result, I do not give much weight to it at all. I try to look beyond the soundbite of the day.

In short- I've examined the claim, found it to be less important to me that it is to those making the claim, and rejected it's relevance to the Office of President of the United States, and the campaign. The preacher isn't running for President.



How about his wife saying that she had never been proud of her country and that is a down-right mean country?

Just curious.First- I would look at that quote in context too. What she said was that at a particular time, that she had neven been prouder of her country. And, to the extent of the second part of your quote- can it be mean? Yes, darn tootin'. This campaign shows that there can be "meaness" out there.

We're all just people. And people are not perfect. But those who work with an attitude of "vendetta" turn me off. Period.



But one more thing- I am not voting for the first lady. I am voting on who is going to be the person to control "the button", and lead the nation. And, besides that, who is going to be the number two person in case the number one person is not able to fulfill those duties.

This election- it won't just be "life experience" that we should take into account. It also has to be "life expectancy". Being 73 when sworn in is a lot different that being 55 and being sworn in. So the number 2 pick in my book has a higher calculation in that equation to consider.

Again- the candidate's wife isn't running for the Office of the President. The Candidate is. So no- it has no relevance.

So- I've answered your question- you have not yet answered mine.

If all what is written in that letter is true, does it make a difference to you?

McDuck
09-07-2008, 03:43 AM
So- I've answered your question- you have not yet answered mine.



I certainty don't have a problem with her having the mayor's office refurnished. That is nothing compared to Barrack Milhouse(we can't use his real middle name) Obama having his $1.3 million house paid for by a slum lord.

rokid
09-07-2008, 06:53 AM
That is nothing compared to Barrack Milhouse(we can't use his real middle name) Obama having his $1.3 million house paid for by a slum lord.

If you're talking about Tony Rezko, your statement is incorrect.

From the Chicago Sun-Times:

'A few months after Obama became a U.S. senator, he and Rezko's wife, Rita, bought adjacent pieces of property from a doctor in Chicago's Kenwood neighborhood -- a deal that has dogged Obama the last two years. The doctor sold the mansion to Obama for $1.65 million -- $300,000 below the asking price. Rezko's wife paid full price -- $625,000 -- for the adjacent vacant lot. The deals closed in June 2005. Six months later, Obama paid Rezko's wife $104,500 for a strip of her land, so he could have a bigger yard. At the time, it had been widely reported that Tony Rezko was under federal investigation. Questioned later about the timing of the Rezko deal, Obama called it "boneheaded" because people might think the Rezkos had done him a favor.'

So did Rezko do Obama a favor? Probably. Were Obama (and Michelle) part of Chicago's Democratic Machine? Most certainly. Did Rezko buy Obama's house? No. Should Hillary's campaign (and the national press) have pursued the Obama/Rezko connection more aggressively? Yes.

Who says Obama doesn't have a lot of relevant experience? He sounds like an excellent Chicago politician! :nuts:-----Jim

http://www.suntimes.com/news/watchdogs/757340,CST-NWS-watchdog24.article

McDuck
09-07-2008, 08:34 AM
\

What if all of it was true?



Jimmy,

The drive-by media makes stuff all the time and gets away with. For one example, the New York Times published articles by Jayson Blair for years where he made-up all the facts while sitting in his apartment or his local Starbucks.

The truth means nothing to liberals.

McDuck
09-07-2008, 08:37 AM
ZOGBY: MCCAIN-PALIN UP 4%... (http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1548)

Show-me
09-07-2008, 10:12 AM
So did Rezko do Obama a favor? Probably. Were Obama (and Michelle) part of Chicago's Democratic Machine? Most certainly. Did Rezko buy Obama's house? No. Should Hillary's campaign (and the national press) have pursued the Obama/Rezko connection more aggressively? Yes.

Who says Obama doesn't have a lot of relevant experience? He sounds like an excellent Chicago politician! :nuts:-----Jim

That is what scares me as a neighbor to Illinois.

CountryBoy
09-07-2008, 10:33 AM
My brother and sister in laws live just south of Chicago and it scares them to death the thought of someone with Obama's background and experience may be Prez. They've seen him up close and personal and know all the poop and they are pretty liberal dems, but won't be voting for Obama. Just a data point from somone who's seen obama in action.

CB

Show-me
09-07-2008, 10:36 AM
My brother and sister in laws live just south of Chicago and it scares them to death the thought of someone with Obama's background and experience may be Prez. They've seen him up close and personal and know all the poop and they are pretty liberal dems, but won't be voting for Obama. Just a data point from somone who's seen obama in action.

CB

That is the feeling of a lot of folk around Illinois.

SkyPilot
09-07-2008, 11:08 AM
I don't know if we need to lock it, but I agree it is kind of a futile discussion at this point. I think most of us have already formed our opinions and won't be changing anyone's minds.

So, use this thread to talk possible strategy, but I think the mud slinging can stop.

New topic:

If the Reps win, Palin will have a brand new TSP account! The new TSP rules put her money in the L-funds by default. Where should she put her money? Which TSP funds are Barrack, John, and Joe in? ;)

I glad to see the mud slinging has stopped :mad:

SkyPilot
09-07-2008, 11:28 AM
Jimmy,

The drive-by media makes stuff all the time and gets away with. For one example, the New York Times published articles by Jayson Blair for years where he made-up all the facts while sitting in his apartment or his local Starbucks.

Here, here!

Miss_Piggy
09-07-2008, 12:50 PM
Clash of the Titans

By Maureen Dowd September 7, 2008 Op-Ed Columnist
ST. PAUL
You know what I’m thinking, because you’re thinking it, too.

If Barack Obama had chosen Hillary Clinton as his running mate, we would now be looking forward to the greatest night in the history of American politics: the Oct. 2 vice presidential debate between Ma Barker and Sarah Barracuda.

Now, alas, we’ll have to wait until 2012 when the two fiercest competitors on the trail will no doubt face off in the presidential debate, with Palin still riding high from her 2008 field-dressing of Obama (who’s now back in the Senate convening his subcommittee on Afghanistan).

The two women are both aggressive pols who take disagreement personally, accruing a body count of rivals, and who have been known to exaggerate their accomplishments. But in ideological terms, the gun-toting hockey mom and the shot-swilling Warrior Queen of the Sisterhood of the Traveling Pantsuits are opposites.

By 2012, the 76-year-old John McCain will be on his way out. His vice president will wear him down, making him change the name of the White House to Rouge Cou — the name Sarah licensed in 2005 in case she ever got into business — and turn Camp David into a caribou hunting ranch. Then she’ll scare him, informing him that if he tries for a second term, she’ll challenge him in the primary.

“How would you like this pit bull grandma to clean your grandfather clock?” she’ll tell President McCain in her flat “Fargo” accent. He’ll confide in his pal Joe that being a P.O.W. was nothing compared with being trapped in the White House with “that woman.”

It’s delicious imagining the Debate of the Century between Big Mama, as Bill’s male aides called Hillary, and “Hottie Granny,” as People magazine will doubtless dub Sarah. ESPN will want in.

PALIN: Before we start, Hillary, I want to honor your achievement in 2008. You nicked the glass ceiling. But in the end, as my friend Cheryl Metiva from Wasilla Bible Church said, I was more of a woman and more of a man than you, so I was the one who actually busted up the old boys’ club. Sorry I called you a whiner about sexism. That was before I realized how handy the victim card can be against the press wolves. In Alaska, we just gun down wolves from the air.

CLINTON: I do give you and John credit, Sarah, for following my blueprint to reveal Obama as all cage, no bird. But now the Democrats have crawled back to me and I will close the deal. So pack up your snow boots and antlers and backwoods brood and scram.

PALIN: I’ve got a little news flash for you, Hillary. Your night-shift, blue-collar-waitress, boilermaker routine didn’t fool me. It’s in your polls but it’s in my D.N.A. I’ve actually been up at 3 a.m. — gutting moose. While you got to go to your snooty Wellesley, I had to switch colleges six times in six years. While you got to go to Yale Law, I had to enter beauty contests and turn my back to judges in a bathing suit to get scholarship money.

CLINTON: I’ve got a little news flash for you, Annie Oakley. Dinosaurs disappeared a lot longer than 4,000 years ago. I admit you’ve had a profound influence on America, and I’m not just talking about all the women wearing up-dos and rimless titanium $375 Kazuo Kawasaki designer frames. You and John are now at war with four countries — Russia, Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan, even as Osama bin Laden has opened a storefront in a strip mall in Pakistan to make TV ads.

PALIN: Those wars are tasks from God.

CLINTON: You said you wanted to help women, but you’ve only hurt them with your silly mantra that women can have it all if they just work harder and pray harder. You put Medicare on eBay. You cut funding for special-needs children. The Dobson Supreme Court has outlawed abortion, evolution and gun control. With sex education banned, baby bumps in high schools are rampant. And the head of your Abstinence Outreach Program, Levi Johnston, has failed to force any other teenage fathers to marry their prom dates.

PALIN: Life is always welcome. Unless it’s on four legs.

CLINTON: When it comes to Big Oil, you make Dick Cheney look small bore. You had secret energy meetings to eliminate polar bears. You’ve turned Alaska into Kuwait without the sand. Gas is $50 a gallon and global warming has changed the Rose Garden into the Palm Court. Your only energy plan is to give tax credits to people who put do-it-yourself oil rigs in their backyards. You created a Department of Drilling and More Drilling and put double-dipping Todd in charge.

PALIN: You’re chiding me about nepotism? At least I know how to control my First Dude. If you think that fake sniper fire in Bosnia was bad, wait till you get a load of my hunting rifle.

CLINTON: Adios, Sister Sarah. You’re tough, but I’ve been tougher longer. Slide out of town on that oil slick you made on the Mall. And take that Grizzly throw with you.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/07/opinion/07dowd.html?_r=1&th=&oref=slogin&emc=th&pagewanted=print (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/07/opinion/07dowd.html?_r=1&th=&oref=slogin&emc=th&pagewanted=print)

McDuck
09-07-2008, 03:05 PM
That is the feeling of a lot of folk around Illinois.

Do they all feel as passionately about it as the Rev. Jesse "I'd like to cut off his nuts" Jackson ?

McDuck
09-07-2008, 03:20 PM
By Maureen Dowd September 7, 2008 Op-Ed Columnist
ST. PAUL
You know what I’m thinking, because you’re thinking it, too.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/07/opinion/07dowd.html?_r=1&th=&oref=slogin&emc=th&pagewanted =print (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/07/opinion/07dowd.html?_r=1&th=&oref=slogin&emc=th&pagewanted=print)



"I don't know how Richard Nixon could have won ," the late film critic Pauline Kael is said to have observed after the 1972 election. "I don't know anybody who voted for him." Pick up the New York Times 32 years later, and it's obvious that big-city liberals are as out of touch as ever.

(My addition, Nixon won 49 of the 50 states in 1972. That was back before we had 57 states like we do now)

from the Wall Street Journal in 2004

http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110005849

rokid
09-07-2008, 09:21 PM
I've never been much of a Joe Biden fan. However, he was great on this morning's Meet The Press. Tom Brokaw challenged him with tough questions about his relationship to MBNA Bank, his support of the bankruptcy bill, whether or not the surge has worked, and when does life begin. On the last question, Biden, a Roman Catholic, quoted St. Thomas Aquinas, who argued that life begins 40 days after conception. Biden, unlike John Kerry, effectively articulated the position that a person could believe that, as a matter of faith, abortion is wrong and still think banning it is bad public policy.

Biden knocked Brokaw back on his heels.

I can hardly wait for the Vice Presidential debate on 2 Oct! :nuts:

P.S. What's the deal with the preemptive arrests of potential protesters in St. Paul MN? In addition, according to news reports, the RNC bought liability insurance for the police. Sounds like Chinese communist tactics. Arrest people so they can't protest and hold them in jail without charges until the event is over. I guess I'd better raise my ACLU monthly contributions. They're going to be real busy if the Republicans win again. :cool:

JTH
09-07-2008, 09:41 PM
P.S. What's the deal with the preemptive arrests of potential protesters in St. Paul MN? In addition, according to news reports, the RNC bought liability insurance for the police. Sounds like Chinese communist tactics. Arrest people so they can't protest and hold them in jail without charges until the event is over. I guess I'd better raise my ACLU monthly contributions. They're going to be real busy if the Republicans win again. :cool:

Are you refering to the riots with kids breaking glass and jumping on police cars? Or are you refering to the folks whose house was raided and they happen to have buckets upon buckets of urine collected with the excuse that it belonged to the guy without any plumbing?

Are you pointing to a particular news artical?

rokid
09-07-2008, 10:50 PM
Well here's a particular news article.

http://www.startribune.com/politics/27695244.html

If you'd like to see more, just Google "St. Paul police raids".

From the article: "On Saturday afternoon, law agents surrounded 951 Iglehart Av. in St. Paul where members of I-Witness Video, a New York-based group that monitors police conduct during protests, were staying. They were detained and handcuffed but eventually freed without charges."

So WHY did the police surround the house, prevent the occupants from leaving, handcuff them, arrest them, and then not charge them?

Answer: They wanted to prevent them from exercising their right to free speech. Who does that sound like? Russians? North Koreans? Iranians? Chinese? Americans? ----Jim

P.S. John Stewart: "If McCain is a qualified leader because he was a POW for 5 years then that must make Guantanamo a "leadership academy.":laugh:

tsptalk
09-07-2008, 10:59 PM
P.S. John Stewart: "If McCain is a qualified leader because he was a POW for 5 years then that must make Guantanamo a "leadership academy.":laugh:
Funny, but probably true. If they get out, they'll likely be the new leaders of Al Qaeda. I hope they are being treated right. ;)

JTH
09-07-2008, 11:00 PM
OK let me get this straight.

These anarchist have a website in which they are giving instructions on how to thwart the efforts of police to sustain peaceful protest. They are advocating illegal acts and have every intention of harming public property?

My only disappointment is that they weren't charged with something along the lines of conspiracy to commit crime.

There is a difference between the protest we saw during the DCN and the riots we saw during the RNC and I certianly don't approve with the latter. :cool:

rokid
09-07-2008, 11:45 PM
OK let me get this straight.

No, you've got it wrong. The police are supposed to arrest people after a crime has been committed. If they police can arrest people, whenever they feel like it, without probable cause, then we're living in a police state.

The 1st amendment states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

These people were in a private residence. Although they could have been assembling to engage in or promote illegal activities, which isn't protected by the 1st Amendment, the police didn't charge them with anything. Therefore, my conclusion is that they weren't guilty of anything. Except, perhaps, for the audacity of thinking about exercising their 1st Amendment rights.

In addition, the fact that the RNC purchased insurance for the city, indicates that the city was planning on doing something, e.g. preventative detention, that might be subject to lawsuits. Hopefully, the insurance company will have to pay.:cool:----Jim

P.S. The Minneapolis police were upset by the St. Paul preemptive raids. They know that the police need the cooperation of the community to be effective. If people feel harassed by the police they won't cooperate.

JTH
09-07-2008, 11:56 PM
No, you've got it wrong. The police are supposed to arrest people after a crime has been committed.

Last I checked, conspiracy to commit a crime, is a crime. Where we can agree is that if the people were detained, then they should have been charged with something. But that doesn't mean any laws were broken in the process. Depending on the states laws, people can be detained for a certain period of time before they either have to be charged or released.

I'm not saying it's right...

rokid
09-08-2008, 09:02 AM
I'm not saying it's right... Another place we can agree.;)-----Jim

Braveheart
09-08-2008, 09:04 AM
Obama torn apart yup the Dems just found out they can have all the Media bias to promote their unqualified candidate and forgot that the media don't vote and while they are trying to sell this man of "HOPE" it is more like "HYPE".

Sarah Palin just kicked the shi* out of Obama and the media in 30 minutes. She was calm and had a smile on her face while doing it. I wonder is Michelle Obama happy now that her husband can write his 3rd book about how he lost an election because his wife didn't want Hillary Clinton as VP and the DNC with Obama were exposed as frauds.

I think Chris Matthews was crying !!! LMAO ;)

Wow Down Goes Obama .....Down goes Obama - McCain/Palin lead in the new polls and one poll has McCain 54% - Obama 44%.

Side note - MSNBC removed Matthews & Olberman today from any Election Coverage LMAO....The must be in tears !!!

Palin showed them all she is tough and can not be broken.;)

nnuut
09-08-2008, 09:12 AM
Wow Down Goes Obama .....Down goes Obama - McCain/Palin lead in the new polls and one poll has McCain 54% - Obama 44%.

Side note - MSNBC removed Matthews & Olberman today from any Election Coverage LMAO....The must be in tears !!!

Palin showed them all she is tough and can not be broken.;)
:D:D:D

SkyPilot
09-08-2008, 12:08 PM
Biden, unlike John Kerry, effectively articulated the position that a person could believe that, as a matter of faith, abortion is wrong and still think banning it is bad public policy. :nuts:
:cool:

Or, is it the utimate expression of double speak? Catholic theology holds that abortion is murder. If Joe Biden holds the Catholic position as a matter of faith, then his personal contention that it is good public policy to allow murder in a contradiction is somewhat disingenuous.

I don't think he will find any Aquinian theologians that will support this logic.

rokid
09-08-2008, 12:43 PM
Or, is it the utimate expression of double speak? Catholic theology holds that abortion is murder. If Joe Biden holds the Catholic position as a matter of faith, then his personal contention that it is good public policy to allow murder in a contradiction is somewhat disingenuous

Biden's position is my personal position. Abortion has been prohibited in the past as public policy and the prohibition didn't work. Women still got abortions. However, many died in the act.

There is not a national consensus on when life begins. Therefore, there is not a consensus that abortion is murder.

To impose the religious beliefs of a minority of citizens on the majority is bad public policy. How would it be enforced? Women could leave the country to get abortions. Would they be prevented from returning?

Although I believe abortion is wrong, I don't want the government involved if I change my mind.

Finally, the Republicans have historically talked a good show on abortion to keep Pro-lifers in their camp. However, what did they accomplish when they had control of the Presidency, Congress, and the Supreme Court? Nothing.

Speaking of double-speak, explain to me why so many Pro-lifers hold that it's OK to abort a baby in the case of rape or incest? Isn't that still murder?---Jim

SkyPilot
09-08-2008, 01:17 PM
Biden's position is my personal position. Abortion has been prohibited in the past as public policy and the prohibition didn't work. Women still got abortions. However, many died in the act.

There is not a national consensus on when life begins. Therefore, there is not a consensus that abortion is murder.

To impose the religious beliefs of a minority of citizens on the majority is bad public policy. How would it be enforced? Women could leave the country to get abortions. Would they be prevented from returning?

Although I believe abortion is wrong, I don't want the government involved if I change my mind.

Finally, the Republicans have historically talked a good show on abortion to keep Pro-lifers in their camp. However, what did they accomplish when they had control of the Presidency, Congress, and the Supreme Court? Nothing.

Speaking of double-speak, explain to me why so many Pro-lifers hold that it's OK to abort a baby in the case of rape or incest? Isn't that still murder?---Jim

I will be happy to respond further, but we have gone into another discussion and I will accomodate you off line by PM. This is likely to become very contentious, and this forum is probably not the place to take this discussion any further. :)

SkyPilot
09-08-2008, 01:24 PM
P.S. John Stewart: "If McCain is a qualified leader because he was a POW for 5 years then that must make Guantanamo a "leadership academy.":laugh:

So, you equate the treatment our POWs received at the Hanoi Hilton with the incarceration of terrorists at Guantanamo?

Buster
09-08-2008, 02:42 PM
Or, is it the utimate expression of double speak? Catholic theology holds that abortion is murder. If Joe Biden holds the Catholic position as a matter of faith, then his personal contention that it is good public policy to allow murder in a contradiction is somewhat disingenuous.

I don't think he will find any Aquinian theologians that will support this logic.
Disingenuous is a good word...Goes to the stand we see a lot ..The Dems (Liberals) believe in the Roe V Wade ..Okay fine, but don't believe in the death penalty..WTF?

Can you say Hypocrite?

James48843
09-08-2008, 03:31 PM
..The Dems (Liberals) believe in the Roe V Wade ..


Umm.. Buster-

Have you never seen this?

http://www.democratsforlife.org/

You can't paint all dems with a broad brush. In fact, the party platform struggles each year with the moral issue. And, one year at a time, dems are moving away from abortion towards life.

You'll see.

SkyPilot
09-08-2008, 03:43 PM
Umm.. Buster-

Have you never seen this?

http://www.democratsforlife.org/

You can't paint all dems with a broad brush. In fact, the party platform struggles each year with the moral issue. And, one year at a time, dems are moving away from abortion towards life.

You'll see.

Good point and thanks for the link! Also google Log Cabin Republicans!

That is why it is so hard to categorize, as the party machines would like to get everyone solidified so they could know what they can count on. We are easily manipulated by stereotypes.

Nuke the Green Whales for Jesus!