Great, now the US Automakers want a Bailout

[Silverbird]

US Automakers Are Seeking $25 Billion in Federal Loans
By Reuters | 22 Aug 2008 | 11:58 AM ET
[/URL]
The Big 3 Detroit-based automakers are seeking about $25 billion in federal loans as they struggle to ride out a steep downturn in U.S. auto sales, The Wall Street Journal reported on Friday.

Lobbyists for the U.S. automakers—[URL="http://www.cnbc.com/id/15837290/site/14081545/?q=gm"]General Motors (http://www.cnbc.com/id/26348390#), Ford Motor (http://www.cnbc.com/id/15837290/site/14081545/?q=F) and Chrysler—briefed White House officials, as well as U.S. Rep. John Dingell and other Michigan Democrats, on a possible bailout and plan to unveil the proposal after Labor Day, according to the report.....

http://www.cnbc.com/id/26348390
:notrust:

[luv2read]

Airlines got one post 9/11; insurance companies got one post-Katrina by not paying off and having the government rescue homeowners with grants; financials got several this year; farm subsidies for huge conglomerates; so why not bailout the auto industry? Condition: USA jobs, no more outsourcing overseas. And NO hiring illegals.

[Gumby]

US Automakers Are Seeking $25 Billion in Federal Loans
By Reuters | 22 Aug 2008 | 11:58 AM ET

The Big 3 Detroit-based automakers are seeking about $25 billion in federal loans as they struggle to ride out a steep downturn in U.S. auto sales, The Wall Street Journal reported on Friday.

Lobbyists for the U.S. automakers—General Motors (http://www.cnbc.com/id/15837290/site/14081545/?q=gm), Ford Motor (http://www.cnbc.com/id/15837290/site/14081545/?q=F) and Chrysler—briefed White House officials, as well as U.S. Rep. John Dingell and other Michigan Democrats, on a possible bailout and plan to unveil the proposal after Labor Day, according to the report.....

http://www.cnbc.com/id/26348390
:notrust:


I can almost hear the debate now.....my esteemed Senator representing GM proposes a $25 Bln loan.....and lets set it at 0% for 72 months just like GM offers on some vehichles........because we just can't let them fail.
The distinguished congressman (representative of Ford) suggests the government offer a special 50% dividend to shareholders good for the purchase of Ford vehichles and 0% interest for 120 months.:D

[luv2read]

I can almost hear the debate now.....my esteemed Senator representing GM proposes a $25 Bln loan.....and lets set it at 0% for 72 months just like GM offers on some vehichles........because we just can't let them fail.
The distinguished congressman (representative of Ford) suggests the government offer a special 50% dividend to shareholders good for the purchase of Ford vehichles and 0% interest for 120 months.:D
I still think the no-strings-attached bailout for the airlines was a bad deal for taxpayers. There should have been a condition of free transportation for the military for home-on-leave; and for government employees on official travel.

[Silverbird]

:toung:They going to give a loan to Toyota too?

[luv2read]

:toung:They going to give a loan to Toyota too?
Toyota's plants are HERE in the USA. They've created US jobs while the big three have been busy shutting down US plants, building foreign ones, and exporting US jobs.

[Silverbird]

Toyota's plants are HERE in the USA. They've created US jobs while the big three have been busy shutting down US plants, building foreign ones, and exporting US jobs.That's my point, it isn't Toyota who's asking for a loan.:suspicious:

[luv2read]

That's my point, it isn't Toyota who's asking for a loan.:suspicious:
Oh! :o

[James48843]

Toyota's plants are HERE in the USA. They've created US jobs while the big three have been busy shutting down US plants, building foreign ones, and exporting US jobs.

I hate to point out that Toyota's jobs here come with pumping all the profits back to the parent company in Japan; that they have no retirees to pay pensions to, that they don't have to pay health care for their retirees, and fire workers if they get injured on the job. Plus, Toyota only pays $12 to $24 an hour in some U.S. plants. As soon as you go over age 40, they suddenly decide to move you to a job you can't do, and try to make you quit.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/25/AR2007052502458.html

and

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/06/18/toyota-facing-workers-rights-abuse-charges/

and this one:
http://www.nlcnet.org/article.php?id=562

An extract out of that last one.......


"Why is a commitment and passion to protect our environment so often divorced from a similar concern to protect fundamental human and worker rights?

How would these celebrities—and the many Prius devotees across America—respond if they knew that a full one-third of Prius assembly line workers in Japan are hired as “temps,” with few rights, earning just 60 percent of what full time workers do, and even less when benefits are taken into account? Most Americans have never heard of Kenichi Uchino, who at 30 years of age died of overwork at the Prius plant, routinely working 14-hour shifts and putting in anywhere between 107 and 155 hours of overtime a month—at least 61 1/2 hours of which was unpaid.

The Toyota Company said the 61 ½ hours were “voluntary” and therefore unpaid. Mr. Uchino left behind a young wife and two children—a one-year-old son and a three-year-old daughter. Neither Toyota management nor the “company” union at Toyota lifted a finger to help his family survive.

The Japanese people even have a word for being overworked to death—“Karoshi.” Toyota’s parts supply chain is also riddled with sweatshop abuse, including the human trafficking of tens of thousands of foreign guest workers—mostly from China and Vietnam—to Japan, where they are stripped of their passports and forced to work grueling hours seven days a week, often earning less than half of the legal minimum wage. Sixteen-hour shifts, from 8:00 a.m. to midnight, would not be uncommon.

Most people have no idea that Toyota—through the Toyota Tsusho Corporation which is a part of the Toyota Group—is involved in a joint venture with the ruthless military dictators in Burma, where nearly 50 million people live in fear and want. The United Nations/ International Labor Organization points to Toyota’s repression of freedom of association at its plant in the Philippines as “an illustration of how a multinational company, apparently with little regard for corporate responsibility, has done everything in its power to prevent recognition and certification of the Toyota Motor Company Workers Association” (ILO Workers Group, December 2003). Once again, the “company” union at Toyota has refused to challenge Toyota management for its ties with the Burmese dictators or its repression of freedom of association with respect for worker rights in the Philippines. "

Read the whole story before you jump into a Toyota....

[James48843]

More from http://www.nlcnet.org/article.php?id=562


"Temporary workers—who make up one-third of Toyota’s assembly line workers—are paid a base page of $11.05 an hour, which rises to $12.13 when bonuses are included. Temps earn just 60 percent of what full-time workers earn. When benefits are added, the wage disparity is even greater. (For example, full-time workers receive child benefits of $18.63 a month for one child, $33.52 for up to three children, and $52.67 for four or more children. Also, at Toyota’s cafeteria, full-time workers eat for $3.96 per meal, while temporary and subcontract workers have to pay around $5.94.)
Temps Earn $12.13 an Hour


Temporary workers earn a base wage of 200,000 Yen a month with an average of another 18,583.33 Yen in bonuses.


$12.13 an hour


$485.28 a week


$2,102.89 a month


$25, 234.63 a year

Temps earn $8.63 (41 percent) less than full-time workers. For every temp Toyota hires, in comparison with full-time workers, the company saves $17,381.73 a year in wages, not including the significantly lower benefits paid to temporary workers. By hiring 10,000 low-paid temps to work on its assembly lines, Toyota is able to cut its direct labor costs by $174 million a year."

[Silverbird]

Hrrm. Not a good player, I see. So we are back to whether the big 3 should get a loan, then I guess. :blink:

[rokid]

GM's capitalization is only $5.91B. Why loan them money? Buy them. Nationalize them. Government employees couldn't possibly do a worse job of running GM. Plus, the CEO would make less than $200K a year. Not the $15.7M Rick Wagoner made in 2007.:mad: -----Jim

P.S. Kill Chrysler. I bought an 1994 Dodge Intrepid. I'll NEVER buy another Chrysler product.

[Silverbird]

That's one thing you really really don't want, trust me. Bureaucrats don't know a thing about running a car company. Might as well ask Microsoft to run it because they make lots of money and they captured the U.S. software market.:worried:

I'm with you on Chrysler, and still can't find anyone who can fix my 1994 Ford Crown Vic after the repair guy at the dealer broke it - it also has 6 recalls. That leaves GM and their cars are simply too big, it's just me in the car now.

[Show-me]

GM's capitalization is only $5.91B. Why loan them money? Buy them. Nationalize them. Government employees couldn't possibly do a worse job of running GM. Plus, the CEO would make less than $200K a year. Not the $15.7M Rick Wagoner made in 2007.:mad: -----Jim

P.S. Kill Chrysler. I bought an 1994 Dodge Intrepid. I'll NEVER buy another Chrysler product.

Not exactly a bad idea, but it begins to look more like a communist state.:eek::ban:

[rokid]

Oops, forget the "buy" opportunity. GM has a NEGATIVE book value (-$100 per share)! You've got to be kidding! Tell me again, why did Rick Wagoner make $15.7M last year? Maybe they should try Countrywide for a no income, factory equity loan.:mad:

Maybe, I should move some money out of the C Fund.:laugh:

[Silverbird]

Oops, forget the "buy" opportunity. GM has a NEGATIVE book value (-$100 per share)! You've got to be kidding! Tell me again, why did Rick Wagoner make $15.7M last year? Maybe they should try Countrywide for a no income, factory equity loan.:mad:

Maybe, I should move some money out of the C Fund.:laugh:Great idea! Countrywide...er Country of A, BA Country? surely has a nice 22% ARM breaker credit card they can use (read the fine print).

[luv2read]

Nah....let's give them a Fannie/Freddie loan with options. 8% interest plus 2% of the profits over 15 years. CEO's salaries to be limited to SES max.

[Show-me]

Let them all fail. Someone will step in and take their place.

[luv2read]

yep...thats what should be done with financials as well. Look at Lehman...let the strong survive and eat the weak. gobble gobble gobble.

[hessian]

Let them all fail. Someone will step in and take their place.

Where are our lawmakers, polititians, government regulators - or is the REAL question:
Whose pockets do they ALL have their hands in?... Automakers have known for decades, but...
http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/548-Automakers-Gimme-That-Money-TOO!!!!!!.html :notrust::mad:

[hessian]

Where are our lawmakers, polititians, government regulators - or is the REAL question:
Whose pockets do they ALL have their hands in?... Automakers have known for decades, but...
http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/548-Automakers-Gimme-That-Money-TOO!!!!!!.html :notrust::mad:
From link above...

"Cerberus buys Chrysler after Daimler bought it earlier, and now has its hand out, and that's not even a publicly-traded company. Its a private hedge fund, basically, which appears to have made a bad bet and now wants the government to back it.

Oh, and by the way, Chrysler already got its bailout. It was stuck in the housing bill. You didn't know that? Well its in there - go read it. That's right, a private company got bailed out at your expense - in the housing bill - to make cars!)

"Too big to fail"? Gee, that net keeps getting wider and wider doesn't it?..."

[Silverbird]

Where are our lawmakers, polititians, government regulators - or is the REAL question:
Whose pockets do they ALL have their hands in?... Automakers have known for decades, but...
http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/548-Automakers-Gimme-That-Money-TOO!!!!!!.html :notrust::mad:Well, it remains to be seen whenther they are going to get anything.

[Show-me]

From link above...

"Cerberus buys Chrysler after Daimler bought it earlier, and now has its hand out, and that's not even a publicly-traded company. Its a private hedge fund, basically, which appears to have made a bad bet and now wants the government to back it.

Oh, and by the way, Chrysler already got its bailout. It was stuck in the housing bill. You didn't know that? Well its in there - go read it. That's right, a private company got bailed out at your expense - in the housing bill - to make cars!)

"Too big to fail"? Gee, that net keeps getting wider and wider doesn't it?..."

It is the new American way, even on individual basis people that don't need the money have their hands out. They figure that is the system in place why not use it. I personally know people that are very wealth, not just well off, but very wealthy collecting a Social Security check. Yes, they paid into the system but the system was not originally created for those folks. It was created for the folk that don't have a dime or got screwed by the companies like Enron. And, IMO the entire Enron and Aurthur Anderson board member and Executive should all be in jail. Make examples out of them.

[Show-me]

First thing to do is to abolish the tax code and implement the FairTax system.

[nnuut]

Let's add Fair Trade regulations!!:notrust: The competition is killing us, WHY ---- because we are STUPID!!!!!!!!4525

[Show-me]

Nnuut,
Like Perot said, if it is good one way give us the same deal.

[amoeba]

Used to think this was a bad idea, until I heard some worse ones, like the $700B bailout of banks, and the $300B bailout of anyone who doesn't make home payments.

Gee, my car is worth half what I paid for it (in cash); wanna give me $9,000 back?

Oh, what's that? you want the taxpayers to pay for the decrease in your home value? What makes it your home? Oh, that's right - you didn't buy the house, you just borrowed money - and used it to buy the house.

Oh, but the rate adjusted and you can't pay it now? well then, you might have looked up the word "adjustable".

My sympathy for these low lifes home loan defaulters is zero. There are alot of people who save up down payments for a decade or more to buy real estate; their houses declined in value too. And guess what? who is offering to give them money. They are paying their loans.

compared to the loan defaulters, I'd give it to GM and have them build whatever energy-efficient car they can come up with, buy a whole bunch of cars, and hand them out for free. Whatever $700B can buy, just not to banks who make bad loans, or people who don't pay them.

[Frixxxx]

Used to think this was a bad idea, until I heard some worse ones, like the $700B bailout of banks, and the $300B bailout of anyone who doesn't make home payments.
.....

compared to the loan defaulters, I'd give it to GM and have them build whatever energy-efficient car they can come up with, buy a whole bunch of cars, and hand them out for free. Whatever $700B can buy, just not to banks who make bad loans, or people who don't pay them.
Oh, you mean when they had the chance to take all the profits from gas guzzling SUVs and didn't return the favor by putting energy efficient hybrids or straight electrical cars on the market?

Please, Amoeba, I want to slam the world with all this dishonesty as well, but don't ever doubt for a second that this is a capitalistic model unraveling before our eyes. Any time the government intervenes with business, gets us one step closer to being anything else.

CAPITALISM as a whole is doomed to failure when left unchecked. Balancing laws with running a business will always be an art, not a science.

[Fivetears]

I want a damn BAILOUT! Where's the line! :laugh: :D