Georgian/Russian War

[James48843]

Russia claimed last night to have sunk a Georgian Patrol Boat:
===
"Georgian missile patrol boats today made two attempts to attack Russian military ships. The Russian ships opened fire in response and as a result, one of the Georgian ships carrying out the attack was sunk," the ITAR-Tass news agency quoted a ministry spokesman as saying.
===

Wonder if it was this one....


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Georgian_Navy_missile_boat_Tbilisi.jpg

The Tbilisi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tbilisi) (თბილისი) is a Soviet 206MR project boat, obtained in 1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999) from Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine). It is equipped with two "Termite" missile launchers, a 76 mm AU-176 mortar and a six-barreled 30 mm AK-630M (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-630) Gatling gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatling_gun).

[Birchtree]

"U.S. and European friendship toward Georgia is considered critical to efforts to break Russia's control over export channels for the rich oil and gas resources of the Caspian Sea region. Other former Soviet states are watching the Georgia crisis with a careful eye. Russian officials have in recent months stepped up their rhetoric about possible claims on Crimea, a historically Russian region that is now Ukrainian territory. Ukrainian officials said they might block Russia's Black Sea fleet from returning to its leased naval base in Crimea, after Russian ships began a blockade of Georgia's ports."

http://online.wsj.com/public/us

[luv2read]

Just like Iraq. It's all about OIL.:notrust:

[camper65]

Germany, Opps, I mean Russia, has invades Austria, Opps, I mean Georgia, will our Pres, Chamberlain, opps, I mean Bush enjoys the Olympics. There, I think I got it right?

[Birchtree]

luv2read,

This conflict is about the future of freedom in Europe. And yes this does involve energy - the use of an alternate route of distribution that is not yet under Russian control. The conflict is also about the independence and future of Georgia - a strong supporter of democracy and an ally of this country. This invasion, which echoes Afghanistan in 1979 and the Prague Spring of 1968, threatens to undermine the stability of the international security system. This conflict is about the values of liberty and democracy - the right of a small country to have self determination and live in freedom without Russian oppression. I surely hope President Bush steps up to the task and provides some substantial support. Obama would already be on his bony knees and McCain would be emptying Germany of all the heavy armor ready to deploy against the possum butt Russians.

[Silverbird]

Are we going to move our troops out of Iraq or out of Afganastan?

[luv2read]

- the right of a small country to have self determination

So it's OK for the USA to invade and occupy a sovereign country (Iraq)....but it's not OK for Russia to do it. I smell a double standard. Except...it's all about OIL - the great equalizer.

Must you always bring partisan politics into every discussion, Birch? Can we please stay on topic without bringing the election, candidates, etc. into it?

[Birchtree]

What they really need are missile interceptor technology and bombs that can destroy tanks. We can easily provide those armaments like the patriot systems and support with wart hog planes that are tank killers - I don't think we'll let the Russians appropriate Georgia by force. It goes against all our stated rhetoric and values in support of freedom throughout the world. Go Bush here's your chance to leave a legacy.

[Birchtree]

Luv2read,

No disrespect but I think you need to read up on the current topic - right now you are demonstrating that you are essentially clueless. The Georgian people freely elected their government and want democracy - no comparison what so ever to the invasion of Iraq. There have been two separatist territories that have been backed by the Russians because they want to go back to totalitarianism and be annexed by Russia. Georgia has done everything possible to bring these two sepratist territories into the main government giving them essentially independence. The conflict is about oppression rather than self determination by a small country to follow its own future. Energy is involved because of the pipeline that supplies Europe and is an alternate distribution route away from control of the Soviets. The Russians always abuse their power. I have to face the fact that most Europeans are simply whimps and would probably not want to endure a cold winter without Russian gas. It'll be up to Poland and the Ukraine to send troops to act as a buffer and then pull in the U.S.

[Silverbird]

Checking Financial Times on this one, get the European angle:

Russia rejects ceasefire as conflict escalates

By By Roman Olearchyk and Charles Clover in Tbilisi and Catherine Belton and Isabel Gorst in Moscow and Harvey Morris at the United Nations
Published: August 11 2008 18:06 | Last updated: August 11 2008 18:46

Financial Times

Russia defied mounting international pressure and opened a new front in its five-day-old war with Georgia on Monday, sending tanks and troops deeper into the territory of its small southern neighbour.
As the dispute that erupted last week over the pro-Russian separatist enclave of South Ossetia showed little sign of easing, Russia said it had seized a Georgian military base in the west of the country near the border with Abkhazia, a second breakaway republic.



http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/95c4df26-67c7-11dd-8d3b-0000779fd18c.html

[luv2read]

Russia is doing the same thing USA did for the same reason. Oil.

As I recall, the "reason" given for invading Iraq was for WMD's, not democracy. When they didn't find them, the "reason" for overthrowing a sovereign government (which was not being contested by its people, btw) changed to "free a people and spread democracy."

[Silverbird]

The people in North and South Ossetia are primarily of an ethnic minority that is neither Russian nor Georgian. The area was split in two when the border was drawn between Russia and Georgia. The Southern Ossetians voted to secede to Russia recently, in order to join North and South again, and the Georgian reaction was unfavorable (the scope of the reaction is in dispute). I would agree that Russia is taking advantage of this and probably has lots of motives to make this one volitile. It's especially bad with Georgia not in NATO yet, and us really busy in Iraq and Afganistan - which is why the Russians were willing to take the risk now, I think.

I agree with both Birch and Luv. It's the Russians pushing their weight around trying to get territory back. And it also is to ensure their power over European oil.

[James48843]

Whatever the reason, the facts are this:

1. We really can't do much to help at the point, as all our forces are currently "busy" at the moment.

2. Patriot Batteries? Sorry- they are also all deployed- not only to Iraq, but also to Israel. We used to have a couple more of them, but they have been "downsized" and "BRAC'ed" out of existance. The lead time to build more is now on the order of three to four years.

3. Warthogs? Small problem there. Georgia doesn't own the skies at the moment. Without air superiority, A-10's would be sitting ducks to Russian SAMs and MIG's.

4. Our Air Force is not really in a position to assit. We'd have to fly out of Romania and/or Turkey to be within range with F-16s, and we'd have to get both those countries to agree to basing. At the moment I think that would be a long-shot. Neither really wants to get into the middle of things with Russia. Can you imagine if we tried to take Russia on head-to-head so close to their own turf? Ouch. Not a pretty sight.

5. We have no binding treaties with Georgia, they are not a member of NATO, and it is unlikely anyone else can come to their aid at the moment.

IN short- it is NOT a good picture for democracy in Georgia.

P.S- I'm still waiting to hear the redneck jokes about the Russians invading Georgia. It's only a matter of time......

[Birchtree]

NATO can cause some headaches for Russia when you consider all the ex-satellites that are now part of NATO: Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Turkey, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia, - there is a lot that can be done and I surmise this overt aggression will not go unanswered. There is a free nation at stake here and the free world will stand in between the Russians and their trophy. We don't need the Air Force capabilities that are now in Iraq and could shift them to Turkey where we have bases. The Navy is already pretty much in position with plenty of aircraft - the logistics are actually in our favor. The only question is will we act and I think we will. I bet there is troop movement going on right now - let's use some of those captured IEDs from Iran and take down some Russian heavy armor. A few dog fights in the sky would send a clear message to the possum butts.

[Tempest]

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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v348/Tempest555/icon_pirate.gif Warning Kids-there is bad language and violence in This Apocalypse Now clip.

[Birchtree]

Sheen as far back as I can remember has always been just this side of worthless - he was worthless then and he's worthless now. By the way, I still have my original zippo from 1966.

[Steadygain]

The people in North and South Ossetia are primarily of an ethnic minority that is neither Russian nor Georgian. The area was split in two when the border was drawn between Russia and Georgia. The Southern Ossetians voted to secede to Russia recently, in order to join North and South again, and the Georgian reaction was unfavorable (the scope of the reaction is in dispute).

Silverbird,
This is the kind of information I like to know, and from here I can do research on The Northern and Southern Ossetians. Only as we discover the people and their hertitage - their culture and way of life can we have an appreciation who they are and what they're going through. So now we realize the population has a uniqueness that does not fit with either Russia or Geogia. And that they are widely devided in seceding to Russia.

The fact that such a vote took place makes me believe the equivelent of the Russian CIA was behind everything leading up to that vote.

Anyway thanks, very informative.

[Silverbird]

Ok, sorry Steady it's not so simple as I thought. There are enclaves of Ossetians and Georgians in Southern Ossetia. And they don't like one another!

"South Ossetia has been ripped apart in the latest fighting. In this region of 75,000 people, ethnic Georgian and ethnic Ossetian villages exist side by side in a chequerboard-like pattern. After an earlier Georgian military adventure in 2004, and with the peace process stalled, the communities grew so deeply apart that they now have separate gas and electricity networks." - BBC article

Background on Ossetia, and Abkhazia (major Soviet area vacation spot, strategic location on Black Sea) Good article!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7558000.stm

[Steadygain]

There are enclaves of Ossetians and Georgians in Southern Ossetia. And they don't like one another!

"South Ossetia has been ripped apart in the latest fighting. In this region of 75,000 people, ethnic Georgian and ethnic Ossetian villages exist side by side but the communities grew so deeply apart that they now have separate gas and electricity networks." - BBC article

Background on Ossetia, and Abkhazia (major Soviet area vacation spot, strategic location on Black Sea) Good article!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7558000.stm

I seriously doubt this type of thing can ever end; not without some huge devine intervention. Look at the Native Americans and what they went through. Look at the Blacks and everything they went though even during my lifetime - with seperate water fountains, bathrooms....Women weren't much better since they were boxed in to teachers,nurses, housewifes, flight attendents.

So what you're describing is simply a reflection of our society and the intollerance, distrust, and animosity towards someone that reflects something different from ourselves. Usually these are fueds that started way in the distant pass and the people never learned to put it aside, move beyond it, and live in harmony.

As terrible as this sounds - if it brought about the change I hope it would - I'd love to see a Solar Flare wipe out everything and force everyone into a commonality. Without electricity we'd be forced to a common state of humanity and the barriers would disappear.

[Scout333]

Steady, May not be something to wish for. Have you been through a natural disaster, hurricane, flood, earthquake, etc. with major and extended loss of electrical power? Humanity declines rapidly with fighting over food, ice, water, etc. Saw some "civilized ?" folks lose that veneer fairly quickly in the turmoil after natural disasters. New Orleans as a prime example. Just a thought? Now to more pleasant things.:D Market corrections, bear market slides, and more fun things!

[Steadygain]

Steady, May not be something to wish for. Have you been through a natural disaster, hurricane, flood, earthquake, etc. with major and extended loss of electrical power? Humanity declines rapidly with fighting over food, ice, water, etc. Saw some "civilized ?" folks lose that veneer fairly quickly in the turmoil after natural disasters. New Orleans as a prime example. Just a thought? Now to more pleasant things.:D Market corrections, bear market slides, and more fun things!

Hum..I'd say your right - a global natural disaster on the scale I was thinking would probably make humans much more "animal" than people.

I stand corrected. Apart from Global Devine Intervention - which thoroughly blinds us to the differences; instills a dominate loving and sacrificial attitude towards one another; and wipes out the long existing negative - prejudical - racist ... thoughts * then wiping out populations in Georgia; Iraq; Cambodia; Africa is an unavoidable consequence of the overall human condition.

[fabijo]

luv2read,

My reaction was along your lines when I read the papers and heard the news. They all have the same cry, "America, do something about this." I didn't hear once or read once about how it might look like a double standard.

Even when you ignore oil, it still sounds messed up. Here is the superpower of the world. It just destroyed two other nations' governments and is trying to set ones up like it's own. When another nation does something on a smaller scale than this, the superpower (still killing people in at least two countries) announces to the world how bad Russia is behaving.

The media's emphasis is on infrastructures, government philosophy, tanks, guns, buildings. Where are the dead humans? Our shock and awe killed thousands. Where's their freedom? "They were shooting at us, so they have no freedom." Well, most of them were defending themselves.

Freedom is not something someone can give you. You need to fight for it yourself. Who are we to tell people that we are giving them freedom? Doesn't that imply that we can take it away? Every institution is flawed. Maybe we should spend some more time correcting ours instead of bouncing around and crushing others.

Of course, I'd rather there be no institution, but that's a completely other discussion.