New to Civil Service need advice on a situation

[The Peake]

Not sure if this is the right forum, but as I stated I am new to the civil service and I don't have anyone to ask these questions.

Background: I started as a GS-10 step 1 in August 2006. I took this job as an entrance into civil service because I knew I would not like the position I took. I have applied for other jobs through the Navy's Chart. My resume has been selected quite a few times, but I get the response that my time in rate disqualified me for that position.

Okay, so my immediate supervisor is on travel this week. Last week his boss arrange for me to drive our Commander to a meeting since I knew where it was being held and she didn't. This is not too unusual since a lot of lower people have to drop people off at meetings and then pick them up. But his boss waned me to attend this meeting as well, which dealt with a different aspect of our office than my job. Also my immediate supervisor asked me to write up a Word document of everything that I do. I came into the office and took the ball and ran with it. I have received nothing but high praises and he has told me on more than one occasion that I am best of the group. He really doesn't know all that I do, but he knows that I have a handle on everything and he can rely on me.

Sorry this is so long, but I will speed it up. So at this meeting someone raises a question. The Commander, looks directly at me, and mentions that they are soliciting a position to handle the question that was asked. The question came from the other side of the room, she had no reason to look at me to answer this question. It felt almost like the position was going to be my position. Here is the problem, I found it on the Chart system and it is a GS-9. Can they force me to take a demotion? If I take it, does my time in rate restart and I have to wait another year before being eligible for another position through Chart? Sorry it is so long and vague, but I don't want to include too many details. I really don't know to many people in the know about the civil service and I don't want to mention this within the office. Thanks for any help you can provide and moderator feel free to move this to a more suitable forum if necessary.

[rokid]

They can't force you to take a downgrade unless you're in a Reduction In Force (RIF) situation, i.e. they abolished your job or you got "bumped". Normally, if you take a downgrade, they'll give you the step closest to your current pay, e.g. GS-9, step 5. However, that might be negotiable.

People sometimes take a downgrade to get into a job series with more career potential. Perhaps, your Commander thought that would be true in your case.

[The Peake]

Thanks for the quick response. I would imagine they could get rid of position and add this new position all in one motion. Do you know about the time in rate requirement? I have heard it is a year, but I don't know if that is a year in my position or a year in service. Will taking another position reset this clock? Personally I would hate this other position more than my current position. I am stuck in a generic job code now, but I want to pursue a different code than the one they are offering. I think I would have gotten some of the other jobs had it not been for this mysterious minimum time requirement.

[charmed855]

Are you sure you're not being paranoid? Something does not sound right to me. It's pretty difficult to force a GS employee into a demotion unless you have a long track record of incompetence or there is a restructuring/reduction in force occuring.

If you get demoted before August, your time in grade as a GS-9 plus your prior time as a 10 will qualify you for other GS-10 jobs only. You'll need a complete year as a GS-10 to qualify for most 11 jobs.

[The Peake]

I think the problem is that I am responsible and able to work independent. A lot of people have retired recently also. This position is semi-offsite from the office and whoever gets it will be without supervision most of the time. A lot of people in the office are short and don't want any changes to their last few years in the office. I am 1 of 3 new guys in the office and they only had two before.
I know I may be paranoid, but there are a lot of coincidences, and maybe a few more that are harder to explain. I think they really want me for this job. It is difficult to explain the look she gave me when she mentioned this job.
I also forgot to mention that this new job code does not have a GS-10 rating, it goes from 9 to 11 (If that makes a difference)

[Tri-ing]

Sometimes the best approach is to ask. If you think the Commander might want you to move to that new position, ask. If that is the case, ask if it will remain a 9 or be upgraded. The only way they can force you to a down grade, as mentioned in an earlier post, is to be in a RIF type of situation. If there was a RIF, it takes significant personnel office involvement, counseling, offer of registration in PPP for other equivalent jobs, etc.

[Tri-ing]

If the job is a GS-9/10/11, full performance level is 11. You are eligible to transfer in as a 10, you only need to complete time in grade to be eligible for non-competitive promotion to 11. This is called a ladder position and is frequently used to fill positions where it is difficult to get full performance eligible candidates.

Get a copy of the job announcement from Chart, read it carefully. All of this will be clearly spelled out. If you still have questions, contact the Staffing Specialist at the Servicing HRO. They will be able to answer any questions on promotion eligibility, time in grade, etc. Those are the folks you can talk to on all the rules of Civil Service.

Sounds like your Commander is pushing you into promotion opportunity that will benefit you.

[rokid]

Sounds like your Commander is pushing you into promotion opportunity that will benefit you.

In addition, there's nothing like high level support to enhance a career. ;)

[VirginiaBob]

Consider yourself fortunate since you will be a GS-11 soon.

[ChemEng]

In addition, there's nothing like high level support to enhance a career. ;)

Agreed. That was the secret to my success so far. I went from GS7 to GS13 in 4 years using that method... :)

Good luck!

[ChemEng]

Also my immediate supervisor asked me to write up a Word document of everything that I do.

I reread your post and this part caught my eye. There are some sneaky things that could happen here--both potentially to your benefit. (This is from an Army perspective. Im assuming the same would apply for Navy.)

1. Its possible that your supervisor is setting your position for a bench audit. A bench audit involves getting Personnel to make a comparison of the duties and responsibilities of the position as its filled versus what the job description is. If their performance guide indicates that you are performing at a grade higher than allocated, then one of the options they have is to increase the grade of your position. Another alternative is to have your supervisors hand slapped really hard for overworking their subordinates. I would not recommend initiating this kind of audit yourself because of the strong potential for it to backfire. Although if your supervisor intiates it...

2. Rewrite your job description. This is another sneaky trick leaders can do to get your subordinates promoted for doing the same job they are already working. Basically means having your job description rewritten to include having a higher degree of responsibility, independence, and leadership roles. They then take the rewritten job description to Personnel and have the position's grade reevaluated against the performance standards. Depending on the increase in strength of the wording, the grade will also increase accordingly. This may backfire as well and have Personnel slap the supervisors hand--particularly if there isnt room on the TDA for the new position at the increased grade. (You would get an updated SF50 if this was happening.)

Check out http://www.opm.gov/fedclass/html/gsseries.asp for some more information about what performance is required for each level of your job series.

[The Peake]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I really feel lost a lot of times when it comes to the nonjob related stuff that goes along with the job. I wish the indoc into civil service was more than just two videos.
I think some misunderstood one thing I said. I have seen the ladder jobs announcements before, mostly GS-11/12. This is not one of those jobs. What I meant was the job code (That 4 digit number) does not have a GS-10 rank, it goes from 9 to 11, but there is no guarntee the actual position will go to 11. I don't know why, but some position do not have the GS-10 rank, like the job code that I want to go into (0346). All the worker bees in the office are either a 9 or 10 depending on if the job code offers a 10 or not.
About the paranoid thing, I don't think anyone is out to get me or hurt mr. This position, even if it is a GS-9, would be an awesome opportunity if I had any desire to stay with this activity. I have made it clear that my career goals do not include this activity because I prefer the other side of the Navy better. My supervisor has been trying to sell me on the activity since I came here, and I don't hold that against him since it is his job, but it is really boring compared to the other side. While this new position would help me here, I think it would hurt the career path I want to go down. They are not out to get me, but I think they are out to keep me here and I just wanted to know what options I would have if it was presented to me.
I re-read the job description and now I am not 100% sure the announcement I saw is the job my commander was talking about. While there were a lot bizz words that would only apply to my group, there was also some things that seemed a little odd. I guess I will just have to wait and see.
Thanks for all the advice and I will let you guys know if anything comes out of it. Also my group just went through a major reorganization before I came on. Not sure if it is still in that status, but I know some were hoping to use it for an early out.

[SkyPilot]

You got two videos? :)


Thanks everyone for the advice. I really feel lost a lot of times when it comes to the nonjob related stuff that goes along with the job. I wish the indoc into civil service was more than just two videos.

[Tri-ing]

Two videos? I only had two things from my boss that he didn't want to hear: "Silly Service" and "Close enough for Gumn't work". Oh, yeah, he showed me where the cafeteria was......

[James48843]

Your boss showed you where the cafeteria is?

Man, you obviously don't work for my agency......

[The Peake]

Yeah, I got one video on retirement that talked about the old system and the new system and the people that are somewhere in the middle. The other one was a sexual harassment video, I think. Who knows where I would be without those helpful videos.

[Tri-ing]

The good news is that you get to see the sexual harrassment video every year!!!http://www.tsptalk.com/mb/images/icons/icon14.gif

[James48843]

Peake:

First, you don't have to downgrade- if your job is still here as a GS-10, and your boss wanted you to apply for a GS-09, ask him if he knows that would be a downgrade for you. Believe it or not, sometimes they don't even know.

If you were hired in Aug 2006, ask your boss if he thinks it would be appropriate to complete your probationary period of one year before you start looking at other opportunities- that you want to make sure you qualify as a career conditional status without the probationary period before you really look hard at all the other opportunities out there.

And usually, when someone applies for a lower graded position, they check out whether or not they qualify for pay retention first-- i.e. while the job itself may be a -9, they could give you a step increase in 09 high enough so you don't lose any pay.

But check it out completely first, before you agree to do anything like that, so you don't get screwed in the process.

[Tri-ing]

Just to be safe, I would also check with the servicing HRO Staffing Specialist. If your CO is active duty, they don't always pay close attention to Civil Service rules. They usually receive training before supervising civilians but...... HRO is a neutral party.

[The Peake]

Does anyone know why some of the job codes don't have certain ranks? Is this just a rumor or is there some truth to it? I went to the OPM website linked below and couldn't find anything about it.

[Tri-ing]

Don't know why that is, but it is true. When I came in to Civil Service I came into a ladder position that was set up as a 7/9/11. No 8 or 10 in there. I think it just depends on how the position description (PD) was originally written and classified. Each PD has a specific format with knowledge, skills abilities, scope of work, contacts, supervisory controls, etc. Each position series (or code) has a classification guide, sometimes multiple guides, that are used to grade the PD. Just depends on how the PD grades out.

[Wrngway]

Does anyone know why some of the job codes don't have certain ranks?

I've wondered about this as well. In contracting people generally start at a GS-7 or 9. After that the next level is GS-11, then 12, 13, 14. I suppose the increase in related responsibilities and tasks merits it.

We're supposed to be going to the Performance Based system at my office...eventually. That will prove to be a whole 'nuther ball game.

[Tri-ing]

Check this link:

http://www.opm.gov/fedclass/

[The Peake]

Check this link:

http://www.opm.gov/fedclass/

That is the site I saw and I stumbled across "The Grade Conversion Table" in "The Primary Standard". It looks like it grades the job using different points for different factors. Why can't certain job codes, ie the 0346 I want to go into, have a position that has points total enough to equal a GS-10 (2105-2350)? How can it skip this grade completely is more of my question. Maybe I need to read more, but I was looking for an easy answer.

[rokid]

In my experience GS-10 is an unusual grade. As previously mentioned by others, the progression is usually GS-5/7/9/11 in a ladder series. This was true at Defense Logistics Agency. They had a lot of 346s.

Consequently, if you qualify for a GS-9, they can get you to your current pay rate, or a little better, by giving you the appropriate step, e.g. step 5.

The numeric value is associated with the job. Certain point values justify certain grade levels. It's the supervisor's responsibility to justify the point values. As an applicant, it's not really your problem. If they want YOU and you can't qualify at the GS-11 level, they'll announce the job at the GS-9 and match your GS-10/1 salary with the appropriate step.

[The Peake]

So another related question, let's say I take a GS-9 position one of the job codes that doesn't offer a GS-10 level and I want to transfer to another job that does not have the GS-10 level. Does my one year as a GS-9 count as the time in grade to move to the GS-11 position since there is no GS-10 in that job code?

I am not trying to be hard headed about this, but if I have to wait 1 year to move to the next grade how do these missing grades factor into everything?

[rokid]

Yes. In addition, not all ladder positions require a year in grade. Some only require six months.

Therefore, you could go from GS-9 to GS-11 in six months.

If you are offered the position, you need to raise these questions. You've been operating at the GS-10 level. Therefore, they may accelerate your promotion to GS-11. Unfortunately, they can't just 'give' you the promotion. Finally, you probably don't want to take a GS-9 with no promotion potential.

[ChemEng]

Finally, you probably don't want to take a GS-9 with no promotion potential.

Agreed.

Another alternative is to look for opportunities to compete for positions that are announced to those outside the Federal system. If your work qualifies you at a higher grade, postings that are made outside the system are a way to get around the time in grade issue.

[The Peake]

Agreed.

Another alternative is to look for opportunities to compete for positions that are announced to those outside the Federal system. If your work qualifies you at a higher grade, postings that are made outside the system are a way to get around the time in grade issue.

Are you talking about the e-mails about internal solictations for vacncies I get? I only get the internal e-mails for jobs with this agency which is not the direction I want to go. What does outside the Federal System mean? My expertise is really only with the Navy, so I don't have other options as far as state or local governments.

I know I keep coming back to the direction I want my career to go because I think it will be easier to move now at a lower level than to change after I get higher. Not sure if there is any truth to that, but I think the higher I get the specialized I will get and after awhile I will be stuck.

Also I know I will have to compete for the job, but I spent a few years as a contractor and saw how some jobs were written so only one person in the world could compete for it. Maybe that is why my boss wants to know everything I do. If they really want me for this brand new job, I am sure they could find a way to make it happen.

How do I find out what the minimum time in rank is? I don't think I have ever seen it on a job announcement. Thanks again for all the helpful advice everyone has given me.

[rokid]

What does outside the Federal System mean?

ChemEng may mean "excepted service". It's federal. However, it doesn't follow all of the Civil Service rules and pay scales. The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) is an example.


If they really want me for this brand new job, I am sure they could find a way to make it happen.

If the chain of command is on-board. Getting them on-board may be why your boss wanted you to accompany the Commander to the meeting. Alternately, it may not mean anything.:laugh:


How do I find out what the minimum time in rank is? I don't think I have ever seen it on a job announcement. Thanks again for all the helpful advice everyone has given me.

If it's announced, call Personnel.

[rokid]

The DOD version of the new system is the National Security Personnel System (NSPS). http://www.cpms.osd.mil/nsps/ Pay bands, pay pools, competition for pay increases, and rigorous performance appraisals. It is being phased into DOD. My brother-in-law works for the Navy (NAVAIR or NAVSEA) and his organization has been spiraled in already.

However, it appears that your organization is still under the pre-NSPS system, i.e. old Civil Service rules.

[The Peake]

So now that we have mixed all the apples and oranges together, what applies to me? I know all the jobs I apply for have an eligibility section. Here is what it says:

Current Permanent Federal Civilian Employee You are eligible for this hiring category if you are a current, permanent competitive service civilian employee of any Federal agency.
Note: You may check your competitive service status by viewing your latest Notification of Personnel Action, SF-50, Block 34, Position Occupied. If you are currently working on a temporary or term appointment for the Federal Government, you are NOT eligible for this hiring category.

Block 34 on mine is checked to indicate "competitive service" which makes me eligible according to the job notice, IMHO. So I guess that means I have to play by the old school rules.

Even if this turns out to be nothing but irrational paranoia, I am learning a lot and soon my post may have the most responses in the lounge. I guess that makes me king of the lounge. Does that mean everyone buys me drinks here. :)

[ChemEng]

ChemEng may mean "excepted service". It's federal. However, it doesn't follow all of the Civil Service rules and pay scales. The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) is an example.

Actually Im thinking something different (although what you are talking about is true.) Not all job announcements are open for non-federal employees. These announcements are generally posted twice on USAjobs--1 time for Federal employees, and 1 time for non-Federal employees. Now, if you are currently a Federal employee and you apply for the "Federal employee" version of the announcement, then the OPM rules apply--time in grade and the like.

BUT if you are a Federal employee and you apply for the "non-Federal employee" version of the announcement, then different OPM rules apply because you are competing for placement on the list against people who arent federal employees. This way lets you compete for placement on the list on the basis of your credentials *alone* without consideration of some of the OPM requirements--like time in grade.

To be safe, always apply for both versions of the announcements if there are 2. There is no penalty for making both lists.

I hope this is clear...

[The Peake]

Update...
My supervisor got back from his trip. I decided not to beat around the bush and asked him he knew anything about the position. He mentioned that they might be looking for a GS-12, but it is not "our side of the house." The position has not be finalized, so there is no announcement yet. If I am being earmarked for the position it is happening above his level because he seemed pretty clueless about the position.
So maybe it was just paranoia on my part or maybe it is coming from higher up. Either way, as slow as the government seems to move at creating new positions, I would be eligible for a GS 11/12 in August and I am guessing it will take that long for them to fill the position. I will just wait and see what happens.

[Wrngway]

Keep your eyes open for that announcement. It should have a good point of contact that you can call to get more specific info.

[The Peake]

On this episode of "As The Peake Turns"
Well my supervisor is out of town on another business trip. He called yesterday and told me that he was selected for another job (different agency). He doesn't know if he will take it, but it is something he is looking into. I guess it is another 12 position, but this one is not a supervisor position which is what he wants. I have no idea why he is telling me this, but none-the-less he did. So if he were to leave for this job, none of the older people want his job. They all have the attitude that they are only here to finish out their last of their working years and they don't want to change anything. I think I would be high on the list of candidates, but I really don't want to be a supervisor again (I was back in my Navy days and it really sucked). So I guess I will just wait and see if he takes the job, but it is getting interesting.
Also I think I somewhat know why he wanted me to write up what I do. Before he left he had to type up a "work order" or something like that. Not sure what that is, but I think that is the reason he wanted me to do that writeup. Does anyone know what this could be?

[James48843]

Hmmmmm....


Sounds a lot to me liek someone may be getting ready to outsource your job. The boss knows is, and so he is getting ready to bail out to another federal job. But in order to bid it out, they have to know what the duties are so they can write a contract bid order.

What is it you do? Are you "inherently governmental", or a good candidate to contract out to the lowest bidder?

Just curious. It could be nothing. Or it could be that in a few months your job will be done by a privatized Lockheed Martin employee...