Is the 'Iran War' Thread MIA?

[Wimpy]

That would be unfortunate. Any war in the Middle East is going to have a significant impact on our investments, to include the TSP.

I can understand locking a thread if a food fight breaks out and gets out of hand, but I believe the thread should be allowed to remain in the archive for all, who so desire, to peruse.

A great investment of time and energy goes into posting substantive information and if those posts disappear simply because immature people resort to bashing each other with their less expensive posts (in time and energy), instead of bashing the issues, every thread is a potential target for deletion.

Free speech is an important part of any civilized society and the reputations we build or destroy in this process need to be archived for all to see.

However, another important part of any civilized society or community, with like interest, is respect for private property. With that said, I respect the right of the owner of this board to delete my expended time and energy. But my future time and energy is MY private property and I can choose to spend it where I choose. Ain't freedom grand?:)

Maybe the thread has been moved to another location I'm not aware of...if so, please enlighten me and accept my apology for the rant.

[FundSurfer]

Just thought I'd echo Whimpy's rant. I don't post that often but I do read that thread regularly. It is a good barometer of oil and general sentiment.

[tsptalk]

It appears to have been deleted rather than closed. I will see if it can be restored, but I don't think it will be reopened regardless. That is unless you want to answer all the email and PM's I get from people complaining about posts. ;)

I'll ask the moderator if it is still available in a soft copy somewhere. I'm not seeing it anywhere.

[Machinist Mate]

I am still here,but thought it was a good call in ending it.Should it begin again,I would be dissapointed,but would voice my opinion to those of you that are left of CENTER.You are misguided souls.:)

[TiCKed]

Count my vote for "let it die".

If it were ONLY a discussion of "the financial implications of....", I wouldn't have a problem.

Once it becomes "the political implications of....", I'd rather the discussions be monitored and/or killed.

Wanna talk politics? I'm sure you won't have a problem finding a discussion somewhere. I'd just rather not have the closed minded opinions, (at both ends of the spectrum), clutter up otherwise thoughtful discussions here.

[Quips]

I would agree with Wimpy as well; both economic and military actions in either Iran, Iraq or anywhere else in the Middle East has an affect on the world markets.
The removal of the thread restricts the speech and information others receive from it. And furthers the perception that a small clique will censor that speech and information.
Almost any thread will wander off topic at times ... and for the past year or so I and others have witnessed that.
Anyone visiting this site has the option to place whoever he or she may think on an ignore list; it is not Big Brother's responsibility to do that.

[FundSurfer]

I guess I missed the political stuff. (Ok, some posters political stance is obvious by their choice of links but was it really overt?)

Is there a free for all, anything goes forum? One with a let the reader beware? That's were you put threads that begin to go off on that kind of tangent.

[Fivetears]

The lock seems to have disappeared from this one. Spaf through everyone outta the bar around midnight on June 22nd.
http://www.tsptalk.com/mb/showthread.php?t=2882

I guess I missed the political stuff. (Ok, some posters political stance is obvious by their choice of links but was it really overt?)

Is there a free for all, anything goes forum? One with a let the reader beware? That's were you put threads that begin to go off on that kind of tangent.

[Machinist Mate]

It sure was not overt.Just a corner of a site,where you could dish your country.I thought the thread should be ended and still think it was a good call by management.I must admit though,it was a closely followed Thread and I enjoyed enlightening some folks.The war just will not materialize,as Islam will never be more than a cult of devils.:)

[Quips]

http://www.tbo.com/news/nationworld/MGB9A3PZZLE.html

[Dave M]

"...dish your country..."? D

[Quips]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/19/world/asia/19vietnam.html

Is this what the North Korean missile gambit is all about? You know it has Beijing's inplicit approvable to do it.

Could Beijing consider Vietnam in its sphere of influence, and let North Korea bluff and bluster to get that point across?

[Quips]

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&refer=columnist_carlson&sid=av4WDK2YA2nQ

[JOVARN]

Its a very sad time we live in. The body count continues to rise and the military courts are being kept very busy.
Starting to remind me of another war we once fought. The courts were busy with that one as well, but it ended soon after.

[tsptalk]

We are trying to get away from political opinions here. If you want to talk about the "Iran war", which by the way doesn't exist yet, it should somehow pertain to how it affects our TSP accounts. Otherwise we get people like Machinist Mate passionately jumping in and everyone is fighting over something we really don't need to discuss here. People end up getting banned when it wasn't necessary. Some can discuss this subject rationally - others can't.

Thanks for understanding.

Tom

Isn't there a War Talk.com somewhere? :)

[Birchtree]

Everytime I see that pissant name - Machinist Moron - I bristle with the desire to zip him up in a dark green one of his own. What terrible vibes that were left in that small wake.

Dennis

[Quips]

The topic is less about Iran, Iraq or N. Korea, but how the nation's foreign policy affects not only war, but peace and the economy.

Bloomberg columnists write about such things as well.

As far as foreign policy goes, who could say for sure that US foreign policy and business interests with Vietnam doesn't have something to do with 1) purposely rubbing mainland China the wrong way in an area it considers as it backyard and 2) China giving implicit approval to N. Korea and its nacent ICBM program?

Also, our foreign policy also is affecting market conditions in regards to the price of oil and the UN security council. Such things affect the economy.

Nobody around here is irreplaceable, but it was great to be informed about lewrockwell.com -- while I don't agree with some of the stuff there, it is very interesting and provides an alternate perspective that is sorely lacking in American society.

Yet I would think that some moderators here practice their craft more like butchers and less like surgeons, and some lack a great deal of discretion, i.e. throwing out the baby with the bath water. When one doesn't allow dissent, others have to wonder where freedom has gone. And that lack of freedom -- part and parcel with responsibility of course -- will close the doors to creativeness and fresh ideas.

There is a place in the world for moderators as well as regulators, but it takes discretion and skill since they are the ones who are responsible to balance such things with freedom and an open society; not operating a website in a cabal or clique.

[Spaf]

Yet I would think .....................

The butchery was someone else's doing. Being discrete only made matters worse. We allow dissent, but not arrogant, rude, intolerant, repeated bashing. The bashing was not creative and did not express any fresh ideas. The party doing the bashing was confronted, and even given a 2nd chance, to no avail! Other members were getting very upset and posting very heavy responses. The thread was locked. I tried to fix it, but had to give up; to fix this, we had to fix that, on and on it went. Well, it became too extensive! The I.W thread was sadly deleted. Sorry for the loss of I.W. thread!

[JOVARN]

Sorry MY BAD. Dead issue no pun intended

The article did refer to the Iraq War

[tsptalk]

Yet I would think that some moderators here practice their craft more like butchers and less like surgeons, and some lack a great deal of discretion, i.e. throwing out the baby with the bath water. When one doesn't allow dissent, others have to wonder where freedom has gone. And that lack of freedom -- part and parcel with responsibility of course -- will close the doors to creativeness and fresh ideas.

There is a place in the world for moderators as well as regulators, but it takes discretion and skill since they are the ones who are responsible to balance such things with freedom and an open society; not operating a website in a cabal or clique.

We accept your offer to moderate this thread Quips. It's a thankless job but you'll do fine. Let people say their peace but don't let it get too out of hand. :D

Thanks,
Tom

[tsptalk]

As you may have seen, this thread has been moved to "World Affairs" and it comes with a warning. Post at your own risk.

If any animosity created in this thread spreads to offensive posts in the rest of the board, we will be forced to take action like - yes - deleting your posts.

Enjoy!

[Rod]

Its a very sad time we live in. The body count continues to rise and the military courts are being kept very busy.
Starting to remind me of another war we once fought. The courts were busy with that one as well, but it ended soon after.

I like listening to Michael Savage. He sums up my thoughts rather nicely on certain topics.

[Rod]

We accept your offer to moderate this thread Quips. It's a thankless job but you'll do fine. Let people say their peace but don't let it get too out of hand. :D

Thanks,
Tom

Amen.

HAVE AT IT

I'm sure you won't accept though because you won't want to put up with all the bull...

Trying to use reverse psychology. :D

But seriously, it would be quite entertaining for you. ;)

How about it???

[Fivetears]

Harley Davidson in Vietnam? :blink: (picked this up deep in the Quips link below; sorry I'm puzzled off topic)
And in motorbike-crazy Vietnam, where city streets are clogged with cheap Chinese models, Harley-Davidson, the all-American company, has sensed an opportunity. It won concessions in recent trade talks to have tariffs on heavy cycles lifted, and plans to open a showroom soon.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/19/world/asia/19vietnam.html

Also notes on this here
http://money.cnn.com/services/tickerheadlines/prn/200605241738PR_NEWS_USPR_____CGW055.htm

Never would have seen this coming. Can they afford them? :confused:


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/19/world/asia/19vietnam.html

Is this what the North Korean missile gambit is all about? You know it has Beijing's inplicit approvable to do it.

Could Beijing consider Vietnam in its sphere of influence, and let North Korea bluff and bluster to get that point across? http://www.tsptalk.com/mb/showpost.php?p=47861&postcount=12

[Rod]

Yet I would think that some moderators here practice their craft more like butchers...

"The Butcher of bullcrap"

I kinda like that, and suits what some mods edit/delete to a tee.

[Birchtree]

My theory of good relations and divergent opinions is basic: if you have done the walk then you have earned the talk - otherwise it's simply noise. Opinions are like armpits, we all generally have two.

When a member starts spouting war rhetoric from 1969 and he is only 14 years old at the time - well that's one easy way to incite those that were humbled in 1969.

Here's a little story. One day back in 1971 I was standing in a line to renew my auto tags when a cherry local politician was working the line shaking hands and asking folks if they were going to vote? If you said no you were slightly admonished and reminded it was your duty to vote. When the cherry got to me and stuck out his hand I failed to respond - he asked me if I was going to vote and I said no. He proceeded to ask why and I told him that I had earned the right not to vote if that was my choice. He asked what did I mean - I told him I was a Vietnam veteran - the cherry did an about face and walked away. He was not going to engage me in conversation.

[Quips]

Okay, I will take you up on that offer. Tell me what needs to be done to impliment it.

Gordon

[tsptalk]

Thanks Quips! I'll set you up. Did you get my email response?

[Rod]

Okay, I will take you up on that offer. Tell me what needs to be done to impliment it.

Gordon

Welcome to modville...:D

At least this should be a rather easy thread for you to moderate since there is an "Enter at your own risk". ;)

[Spaf]

Tom,
We are just spinning wheels in the mud with this thread!
Rgds...Spaf

[Rod]

Tom,
We are just spinning wheels in the mud with this thread!
Rgds...Spaf

Just close it, Spaf. It's no longer on topic anyways.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rod,
Your right. There is nothing here thats bad. It just spins and spins. I'll post in the forum. Besides.....Quips wanted to have it. I'll leave it to them.....Spaf

[Birchtree]

From TWSJ 6/23 by Louis J. Freeh, FBI director from 1993-2001.

Ten years ago this Sunday, acting under direct orders from senior Iranian government leaders, the Saudi Hezbollah detonated a 25,000 TNT bomb that killed 19 U.S. airmen in their dormitory at Khobar Towers in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. The blast wave destroyed Building 131 and grievously wounded hundreds of additional Air Force personnel. It also killed an unknown number of Saudi civilians in a nearby park.

The 19 Americans murdered were members of the 4404th Wing, who were risking their lives to enforce the no-fly zone over southern Iraq. This was a U.N. mandated mission after the 1991 Gulf War to stop Saddam Hussein from killing his Shiite people. The Khobar victims, along with the courageous families and friends who will mourn them this weekend in Washington, deserve our respect and honor. More importantly, they must be remembered, because American justice has still been denied.

Although a federal grand jury handed down indictments in June 2001 - days before I left as FBI director and a week before some of the charges against 14 of the terrorists would have lapsed because of the statute of limitations - two of the primary leaders of the attack, Ahmed Ibrahim al-Mughassil and Abdel Hussein Mohamed al-Nasser, are living comfortably in Iran with about as much to fear from America as Osama bin Laden had prori to Sept. 11.

[Birchtree]

It soon became clear that Mr Clinton and his national security adviser, Sandy Berger, had no interest in confronting the fact that Iran had blown up the Towers. This is astounding, considering that the Saudi Security Service had arrested six of the bombers after the attack. As FBI agents sifted through the remains og Building 131 in 115 degree heat, the bombers admitted they had been trained by the Iranian external security service (IRGC) in the Beka Valley, and received their passports at the Iranian Embassy in Damacus, along with $250,000 cash for the operation from IRGC Gen Ahmad Sharifi.

We later learned that senior members of the Iranian government, including Ministry of Defense, Ministry of Intelligence and Security and the Spiritual Leader's office had selected Khobar as their target and commissioned the Saudi Hezbollah to carry out the operation. The Saudi police told us that FBI agents had to interview the bombers in custody in order to make our case. To make this happen, however, the U.S. president would need to personally make a request to Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah.

So for 30 months, I wrote and rewrote the same set of simple talking points for the president, Mr Berger, and others to press the FBE's request to go inside a Saudi prison and interview the Khobar bombers. And for 30 months nothing happened. The Saudis repoeted back to us that the president and Mr Berger would either fail to raise the matter with the crown prince or raise it without making any request. On one such occasion, our commander in chief instead hit up Prince Abdullah for a contribution to his library. Mr. Berger never once, in the course of the five year investigation which coincided wth his tenure, even asked how the investigation was going.

Finally, frustrated in my attempts to execute Mr. Clinton's leave no stone unturned order, I called former President George H.W. Bush. I had learned that he was about to meet Prince Abdullah on another matter. After fully beiefing Mr. Bush on the impasse and faxing him the talking points that I had now been working on for over two years, he personally asked the crown prince to allow FBI agents to interview the detained bombers.

Several weeks later, agents interviewed the co-conspirators. For the first time since the 1996 attack, we obtained direct evidence of Iran's complicity. What Mr. Clinton failed to do for three years was accomplished in minutes by his predecessor. Washington damage control meetings were held out of the fear that Congress, and ordinary Americans, would find out that Iran murdered our soldiers. After those meetings, neither the president, nor anyone else in the administration, was heard from again about Khobar.

[Birchtree]

Sadly, this fits into a larger pattern of U.S. governments sending the wrong message to Tehran. Almost 13 yeras before Iran committed its terrorist act of war against America at Khobar, it used its surrogates, the Lebanese Hezbollah, to murder 241 Marines in their Beirut barracks. The U.S. response to that 1983 outrage was to pull our military forces out of the region. Such timidity was not lost upon Tehran. As with Beirut, Tehran once again received loud and clear from the U.S. its consistent message that there would be no price to pay for its acts of war against America. As for the 19 dead warriors and their families, their commander in chief had deserted them, leaving only the FBI to carry on the fight.

The moral of this story from the viewpoint of the Birchtree is never ever receive head while on the job. It turns dirtbags into yellow backs with weak knees.

[tsptalk]

We can delete this one but Birch just put a lot of work into some posts.

Hey Birch, if you wouldn't mind copying and pasting these posts into another World Affairs thread, I'll go a head and delete this one.

That goes for anyone else who has a post in here that wants to keep in active.

Thanks,
Tom

[Spaf]

We can delete this one but Birch just put a lot of work into some posts.

Hey Birch, if you wouldn't mind copying and pasting these posts into another World Affairs thread, I'll go a head and delete this one.

That goes for anyone else who has a post in here that wants to keep in active.

Thanks,
Tom

Tom, I think Birch is off-line. I saved a copy of his post Khobar Towers. You can do what you want!

Spaf

[tsptalk]

I'll close it and delete it later when Birch makes his new posts.

[tsptalk]

There seems to be some confusion over the closure of this thread. It is not being closed because we don't want you talking about the "Iran War" anymore. It is just being moved to more appropriately named threads. See "Iran (http://www.tsptalk.com/mb/showthread.php?t=3011)" thread. The first thread was inadvertantly permanantly deleted by a moderator (because of some posts by a particular member that went over the offensive line) not realizing it couldn't be restored. We do have the option to make soft deletes where we can later restore deleted threads and posts.

We started "World Affairs" so these discussions can continue, and at the same time, getting it away from the day to day market talk.

I hope that clears things up. I'll leave it open in case you have any questions.

Tom