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Thread: Corn and Ethanol.

  1. #25

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    Default Re: Corn and Ethanol.

    Were is the most fresh water use sector wise?


    Agriculture...............70%


    I'm seeing more irrigation pivots going up than ever before.
    Socrates: "Democracy, which is a charming form of government, full of variety and disorder, and dispensing a sort of equality to equals and unequaled alike."

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  3. #26

    Default Re: Corn and Ethanol.

    Quote Originally Posted by robo View Post
    Jun 08 2007 Unintended Consequences of the Ethanol Boom

    I highly recommend reading the entire article How Biofuels Could Starve the Poor. It really lays out the case against using ethanol (particularly corn based) and how government is protecting inefficient ways of producing ethanol to preserve corporate profits at the risk of the environment and the economy. But what the heck right? After all it would be political suicide to denounce the use of ethanol. Anything for a few votes.
    Good read. I think the hope for energy independence is clouding a lot of folks judgements right now. Once cellulous technology is advanced, say in another five years, there will be a clear and rational choice for switching to ethanal. It's not an environmental panacea, so I would not expect the tree huggers to get on board even though the use of switchgrass would be effective at reducing run-off and sulfer issues can be addressed. IMO, this is going to be huge for poor African countries without natural oil reserves.

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  5. #27

    Default Re: Corn and Ethanol.

    Ethanol is the biggest bologna foisted on the American public ever. The energy content of ethanol is lower than fossil fuel, and only produces about 10% new energy. It's hard on engines too and reduces gas mileage. We need to reduce our dependence on foreign oil by putting drills in the ground and accepting the fact that we need to produce our own crude, ugly or not. We need to face the truth of the matter and grow up! Secondly we need to build at least 5-10 new refineries. The ones we have are so inefficient and modern equipment would help lower costs, waste and pollution.

    We need to build a 100 new nuclear plants, while we develop the hydrogen infrastructure. This will be a very long process, along with the decision about where the hydrogen will extracted (at the gas station or in the car). Hydrogen pipelines are not an option.


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  7. #28

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    Default Re: Corn and Ethanol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Army Invester View Post
    Ethanol is the biggest bologna foisted on the American public ever. The energy content of ethanol is lower than fossil fuel, and only produces about 10% new energy. It's hard on engines too and reduces gas mileage. We need to reduce our dependence on foreign oil by putting drills in the ground and accepting the fact that we need to produce our own crude, ugly or not. We need to face the truth of the matter and grow up! Secondly we need to build at least 5-10 new refineries. The ones we have are so inefficient and modern equipment would help lower costs, waste and pollution.

    We need to build a 100 new nuclear plants, while we develop the hydrogen infrastructure. This will be a very long process, along with the decision about where the hydrogen will extracted (at the gas station or in the car). Hydrogen pipelines are not an option.
    Finally someone that really knows the truth, AMEN BROTHER!!! Use milkweed or something not CORN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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  9. #29

    Default Re: Corn and Ethanol.

    Well I think we need to stuff pussy-footing around and start acting like a superpower.

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  11. #30

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    Default Re: Corn and Ethanol.

    Ethanol will not solve our energy problem nor will it decrease our oil dependence appreciatively. But it is a step in the right direction. IMO, the problem is oil companies and goverment beurocracy. Even if oil companies did want to build more refineries (I don't think they really want to), who wants a refinery in their back yard.

    Nuclear power is a step in the right direction, but I don't think the goverment is looking into it seriously enough. Five years ago, natural gas was suppose to be the answer. All these new electric producing plants run off the stuff. Who would have known that NG would be so expensive now.

    Right now gas minus the taxes is running about $2.25/gal. So why doesnt the goverment give us a break on gas tax? Everybody is in bed with everybody else and we the consumer have to suffer.

    The news tries to tell us that it's OPEC's fault. Even though my opinion of OPEC can't be printed here without colorful metafours I put the blame on China and India. It's because of them that oil prices are up because of their increased dependency on the stuff. But who are we to tell them they have no right to be industrialized nations like we are.

    Since we are going to be dependent on oil for some time to come, we need more refining capacity and we need to become more dependent on domestic oil. While we use our own oil, we need to continue research on energy alternatives.

    We as American consumers can step up to the plate to reduce oil
    consumption. Car pooling, public transportation, no unnecessary driving would accomplish this. These habits would also send a message to oil companies that they need to revamp their strategy on buttering their wallets at our expence.

    Whew!!! I hav'nt done so much writing since being on this site. I guess I had to get it off my chest.

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  13. #31

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    Default Re: Corn and Ethanol.

    Unless this country goes nuclear (solar and wind and wave will help too) within the the next 10 years, and helps the rest of the world do it also, were screwed. Much of our transportation needs could be met by electricty, without a tremendous infrastructure. There are new battery technologies developing that are truly astounding when compared to those of just 10 years ago. Hydrogen will have it's uses in the future, and could come on line sooner than later. For now though my money is on electrochemical storage of nuclear energy(solar, wind, wave, too). The writing is not just on the wall but in the books. No one believes the science guys but me it seems. Just my learned[im(not quite)ho, but I may well be a prophet

    If something isn't done to either supply the worlds' energy demands or else curtail them we are in for sweeping changes in lifestyles and standards of living. And fossil fuels aren't the answer because their never going to foot the cost of 0 emissions. Foot's in mouth here because I too am very fond of my present lifestyle.

    Realistically, I really don't expect much change, though. None of that will be implemented because the big boys with the money (who control everything) won't allow it. It would interfere with them making money in the ways they are so used to. (Screwing us.) Eventually they'll have to, because the supply of fossil fuels are limited, but by then it'll be way too late. We're screwed.
    "He also serves who only stands and waits" - John Milton

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  15. #32

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    Arrow Re: Corn and Ethanol.

    Looks like the ethanol graft is sinking in here. It was reported on the local new that most of the new ethanol plants in this area have been put on hold. LOL

    One of my coworkers has a nephew that has something to do with ethanol planning for ADM. He asked him how many plant this area would support. He said...................one. We have four in the planning stages. We dumb old county boyz knew that.

    Iowa is having a record breaking crop of corn as are some other states keeping the prices low.

    Here is a fairly current map of ethanol plant.

    http://www.card.iastate.edu/research...s/ethanol.aspx
    Socrates: "Democracy, which is a charming form of government, full of variety and disorder, and dispensing a sort of equality to equals and unequaled alike."

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  17. #33

    Default Re: Corn and Ethanol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch Flatus View Post
    Realistically, I really don't expect much change, though. None of that will be implemented because the big boys with the money (who control everything) won't allow it. It would interfere with them making money in the ways they are so used to. (Screwing us.) Eventually they'll have to, because the supply of fossil fuels are limited, but by then it'll be way too late. We're screwed.
    Or, the "Big Boys" are already laying the foundations to monopolize the next generation of energy sources, and we won't know it till it's too late to get invested. Trust their greed and influence to pave the way for their own affluence, then follow them if you can. We may not be as screwed as one might think...
    Official Retirement Date: 06-31-2014!

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  19. #34

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    Arrow Re: Corn and Ethanol.

    They already made it law to blend ethanol with gasoline to replace MTBE. That's the first step.

    What is MTBE? http://www.epa.gov/mtbe/gas.htm

    Argument against replacing MTBE. http://www.calgasoline.com/factetha.htm

    Ethanol Is Not a Suitable Replacement for MTBE
    In 1990, Congress passed a law requiring fuel oxygenates – such as Methyl Tertiary-Butyl Ether (MTBE) and ethanol – to be added to Reformulated Gasoline (RFG) to reduce automotive emissions and improve the air we breathe. However, for a variety of economic, logistic and environmental reasons, refiners overwhelmingly favored MTBE over ethanol:

    Gasoline Production Economics: Ethanol blends evaporate more readily than MTBE blends. Therefore, using ethanol increases refiner production costs and reduces operating flexibility. For example, the Chicago/Milwaukee ethanol market saw gasoline prices increase 25 cents/gallon over the national average during the summer of 2000. In addition, ethanol contributes about one half the blending volume provided by MTBE, and the maximum amount of ethanol that can be blended into gasoline is capped at 10% (versus 15% for MTBE). As a result, ethanol is unable to dilute many, less desirable, gasoline components.

    Ethanol’s Tax Subsidy: Ethanol is not economically viable without its substantial federal tax subsidy – currently 53 cents per gallon – and supplemental state tax incentives.

    Supply Uncertainties & Distribution Concerns: Ethanol use is generally limited to the Midwest, with little capacity for expansion. Ethanol supplies can be uncertain due to feedstock (i.e., corn) shortages caused by summer droughts. Ethanol’s high affinity for water does not allow blending at the refinery, nor transportation through the existing nation-wide gasoline pipeline infrastructure. Ethanol must be stored in segregated tanks, can only be transported by rail or truck and must be blended into gasoline at the terminal or retail station.

    Environmental Concerns: Ethanol emits more harmful smog-forming emissions in the summertime than MTBE due to its high tendency to evaporate. Because ethanol is used in lower volumes, it provides less reduction in toxic air emissions than MTBE. Ethanol also can contribute to increased NOx emissions.

    Consumer Acceptance: Automaker owner manuals warn buyers of performance problems with ethanol. Some consumers perceive ethanol-blended gasoline or “gasohol” as an “inferior product.”

    In addition, energy security implications and consumer costs remain a concern as ethanol’s role in future national energy policy is debated:
    • Ethanol’s federal tax subsidy currently reduces money for state road maintenance and transportation infrastructure by over $1.1 billion/year. If ethanol were used to replace MTBE, this figure would grow to over $3.5 billion/year.
    • MTBE supplies 2.5 times more non-petroleum energy into the nation’s gasoline pool than ethanol (at the same oxygen content), thus increasing overall gasoline supplies.
    • Despite its “renewable fuel” billing, producing ethanol consumes as much energy as it yields as a finished fuel. Lower fuel economy (by as much as 2-5 %) should be expected for ethanol blended gasoline versus conventional, or MTBE-blended, gasoline.
    • Increasing the use of ethanol would increase the fragility of our nation’s gasoline supply outlook and potentially result in a net increase of crude and product imports.
    • Calls to triple the required use of ethanol would cost U.S. consumers $17 billion over the next nine years.
    • The large ethanol subsidy generally benefits the large agri-business interests rather than average farmers.
    Ethanol’s use is uneconomic without a large government subsidy and, outside of the Midwest, it can not be integrated into the nation’s gasoline supply and transportation system. Increased reliance on ethanol would result in air quality backsliding. And, most importantly, it can destabilize the nation’s gasoline supply without offering significant energy security benefits and without even benefiting America’s farmers.
    Socrates: "Democracy, which is a charming form of government, full of variety and disorder, and dispensing a sort of equality to equals and unequaled alike."

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  21. #35

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    Default Re: Corn and Ethanol.

    Amen, Show-me! I agree 100%. Ethanol sucks as a motor fuel. Benefits only the crooked agribusness fatsos who claim to feed us but are really starving us while turning us into a nation of obese idiots. Themselves included.
    "He also serves who only stands and waits" - John Milton

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  23. #36

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    Default Re: Corn and Ethanol.

    Sorry Show-me, but I tend to disagree with your cited website.

    Turns out the case of MTBE VS. Ethanol is written by a lobbyiest who is retired from the petrolium industry, and gets paid hamsomely to bash ethanol.

    See his resume at:


    http://calgasoline.com/about.htm

    While ethanol is NOT the perfect solution, it is a heck of alot environmentally better than MTBE. And your guy?

    Here is what HE has done before starting a website to bash ethanol:

    *23 years at a major oil company with early retirement as Director, Environmental Issues Management in 1995. Experience includes operation and financial responsibilities in the retail and distribution sectors of the business. Also managed the introduction of various innovative fuel programs. Involved with environmental, health and safety compliance and advocacy matters since 1976.

    * Former Technical ARCO Lobbyist on downstream oil industry issues. Past Vice-Chair American Petroleum Institute (API) Storage Tank Task Force and former Chair of Marketing Environmental Subcommittee. Also past Chair of the Western States Petroleum Association (WSPA) Environmental Marketing Subcommittee. Participated in writing and revising Industry Standards and Recommended Practices.


    While it is true that Ethanol can only replace a portion of the anti-knock additives in straight gasoline mixtures, I personally plan to buy and use E-85 whenever possible. Now that the price of unleaded regular is above 3 bucks a gallon, ethanol is a cost- competitive alternative, and besides, it lessons our dependance on Middle Eastern oil.

    true, ADM has a part in it. But where I am, there are four Ethanol plats either in the planning stages or under construction, and our local farmers, who export 3/4 of their corn crop out of state, will now have a new domestic state market for their product.

    I'm looking forward to boozing up my car on ethanol.


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