Great info Wheels. Thanks!
Tom
I did some digging on the I fund to try to answer some of the questions that we've all brought up here over the last few weeks. Here's what I've come up with. Be forewarned, this will likely be a brutally long and potentially dry post.
Morgan Stanley started an index called the EAFE. More recently, Barclay's started a fund to track that indexcalled the MSCI EAFE Index Fund. Our I fund is invested in this fund. The index can be tracked from the Morgan Stanley website under EAFE. The fund can be watched by using the ticker symbol EFA. Differences in the two can be attributed to several things. This from the TSP website:
The securities lending program of the Barclays EAFE Index Fund produces income that adds to the returns of the I Fund.
And:
A small portion of the Barclays EAFE Index Fund is invested indirectly in futures contracts to provide liquidity.
Additionally there are normal management fees associated with the fund but not the index.
There is also a ticker symbol, EFV, that we have discussed. This is the ishares Trust Index. According to a Barclay's rep I spoke with, this index represents the "underlying trading value" or the total of all the net asset values of the various stocks in the EAFE index. Way over my head but suffice it to say that it is not a fair reflection of the EFA fund or our I fund.
Next to the issue of the dollar's effect on the fund. The TSP website has this to say:
However, the I Fund also carries the risk of foreign currency fluctuations. The stock prices of the companies in the EAFE index are expressed in the currency of each respective country and then converted to U.S. dollars to determine the value of the EAFE index. Thus, the value of the EAFE index will rise as the value of the U.S. dollar falls — and fall as the value of the U.S. dollar rises — relative to the currencies of countries with companies that are represented in the EAFE index.
A Barclay's rep (not the first guy) had this to say in an e-mail he sent me:
Because each Index Fund's assets are generally invested in non-U.S. securities, and because a substantial portion of the revenue and income of each Index Fund is received in a foreign currency, the dollar value of an Index Fund's net assets is reduced by declines in the value of the relevant foreign currency relative to the dollar and are positively affected by increases in the value of that currency relative to the dollar. Because each Index Fund's net asset value is determined on the basis of U.S. dollars, you may lose money if you invest in any Index Fund if the local currency of a foreign market depreciates against the U.S. dollar, even if the local currency value of an Index Fund's holdings goes up.
They are both saying the same thing and it's nothing new to us here on this board. Unfortunately neither explains to what extent the dollar's price effects the fund's price. Furthermore it's already taken into account when we look at the EFA ticker during the day so it's not like we need to try to calculate this effect ourselves.
Now onto timing. Lucky thought that maybe he could take advantage of a good day in Japan's markets but moving his money into the I fund the next day. The Barclay's rep (the phone guy) explained to me that when the various markets close in our early morning hours, those prices will be reflected in that day's EFA closing price. He also said that while those markets are closed but the EFA is still trading over here, the price is driven largely by news and futures prices. In other words speculation, like Tom has already pointed out to us. The other Barclay's rep (the e-mail guy) explains it like this:
The pricing of the internationaliShares funds use fair value pricing. Essentially, the fund does notjust usethe closing prices of its stocks, but rather it estimatesthe NAV based on models of what a stock's price would be if the international exchange were open. Fair value pricing is designed to prevent the late trading scandals that have surfaced in the fund industry.
More specifically, the iShares prices fluctuate throughout the trading hours based on the value of those underlying securities that make up each particular fund. For the Far East Funds, the opening prices reflect the closing prices of the securities that trade on those foreign Stock Exchanges. When those foreign Stock Exchanges areclosed, the pricing of the iShares Funds primarily reflects price discoveryand currency fluctuations. Price discovery is the process by which an auction market sets values based upon all that is currently known about a security. The specialists/market makers will set the best outbid/ask based onnews and announcements of those underlying securities that cameafter their market closed. The price of the ETF share is updated throughout the day, and is determined by competitive market forces.
I liked phone guys explanation better because it was easier to understand.What it means to us is if the dollar is getting hammered during the overnight hours and the U.K. and Japan are both off to the races, we know that the EFA and our I fund are likely going to do well that day, but it is already way too late for us to take advantage of it.
Lastly, I want to address the slight differences in daily gains/losses between the EFA and our I fund. The TSP website has this to say about it:
The F, C, S, and I Funds are intended to track the performance of their respective indexes; however, from month to month, the returns of the TSP funds may differ from the returns of these respective indexes. There are three major reasons for these differences:
However I noticed that the differences, while not huge, were certainly more than the C or the S was experiencing. The Barclay's rep (e-mail guy) offered this:
- The returns for the TSP funds are shown after accrued TSP administrative expenses, investment management fees, and trading costs have been deducted. The returns of the corresponding indexes do not reflect any such expenses.
- Some TSP money is invested in G Fund securities while awaiting investment in one of the four related index funds, or to make cash available to pay loans and withdrawals from the TSP.
- There may be differences between the returns of the related index funds in which the TSP funds are invested and the indexes themselves.
The Barclays Global Investors funds that are in the Federal Governments' Thrift Savings Plan are not the same as the iSharesFunds. Even though there isafund that tracks the performance of the MSCI EAFE Index in the Thrift Savings Plan, it is not exactly the same fund as the iSharesMSCI EAFE Index Fund (EFA). The performance between the two funds may differ because of differences in the holdings and expense ratios associated with the funds.
I hope I didn't put anyone to sleep. I also hope that presented this in a way so as to be helpful, or useful, or at least interesting to a few of you.
Dave
[I just learning here]
Wheels,Hi !
What means ?
[...and trading costs have been deducted].
It's means ,when we are doing tranfer ,we
are paying for that service ? or what "trading
cost have been deducted: means ?
...may be a stupid question but pardon me,
I'm just a first starter in the game ?
Great research Wheels. I understood most of what you presented.It is posts like this that are going to make this site a homepage for our most savy of TSPers.
You obviously spent some time on this post and we all appreciate it greatly.
Now everyone tell us if this gives us an edge?
PR - I'm not sure exactly what it means. It's not a fee per se. Theperson who makes a thousand trades is paying no more than the person who makes none. I would have thought that "TSP administrative expenses, management fees, and trading costs" would have all been roughly the same thing.
ZBWMY - Thanks. I suppose you could argue that being informed gives you an edge, but in practice my answer is no, I don't think so. Trading the I is just as speculative as all the others.
Dave
May be the expence trading of the company !
By the way tsp is great plan which low expence.
I like this forrum ,and u guys doing a good help
with informations and tips.
Thanks
wheels -
very nice piece of investigative reporting. Here's a suggestion on determining the effect of the dollar's variation on the eafe fund price - compare the daily closing prices of the fund expressed in local currency to the close in dollars. This is a direct measure of the exchange rate effect. MSCI provides both values daily. Perhaps your email buddy could answer this. If I can grab a history of daily closes in local and dollar values I'll do the analysis and post the results. Personnally, I'm betting it's a small effect, less than 10% of the final price.
I'd like to see the those results myself. However, the whole time I was working on this little project, I should have been doing my taxes. I happily pass the baton to you.
Dave
Does anyone have information on the strength of the dollar in a given calender year? If I recall correctly the dollar was in a weak period in the mid 80's where the I fund (EAFE to be accurate) was returning strong double digits and during the 90's Rubin "strong dollar" policy, the I fund (EAFE) was stagnant to negative in returns. I anticipate that with the Bush administration's quiet abandonment of the strong dollar for trade balance concerns, that the dollar should decline against major currencies (even more if Japan walks away from monetary intervention), and correlativelythe I Fund should be the strongest performing fund in 2004.
Shawn.
Experienced traders control risk, inexperienced traders chase gains.
Welcome cortez -
I did a quick search but couldn't find currency quotes going back to the eighties.I'll keep looking. Here is something I posted in my comments back in February along the same line...
The EAFE index (I fund) had some huge years back in the mid 1980's. Check out these returns:
1983 +23.69%
1984 + 7.41%
1985 +56.14%
1986 +69.46%
1987 +24.64%
1988 +28.26%
That is mind boggling. We thought the 1990's were good here. The years leading up to those returns were quite weak. Before last year's 38% gain, the I fund had three years of negative returns, -14%, -22% and -16%. This is a volatile index but could we see consecutive year returns like that anytime soon? I won't bet the farm on it but I wouldn't leave it out of your allocation if you are in the stock funds.
My suggestion on determining the effect of the dollar's variation on the I fund price - to compare the daily closing prices of the fund expressed in local currency to the close in dollars at the MSCI data site - is wrong. Because of the number of currencies involved, there is no simple relationship (near constant ratio) between the two. In fact, the euro/dollar exchange rate is sometimes completely uncorrelated to the EAFE. On the link below, one can see that - in the last half of 2002, while the euro increased 20% against the dollar, the EAFE dropped. In 2003 the correlation does re-appear but it's not 100%...
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=EURU...&z=l&q=l&c=efa
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