Progressive's Place [Archive]

phil

11-02-2009, 09:53 PM

Yes. Shrill. As I've said.

After invading a country that had nothing to do with attacking America, after manufacturing reasons for doing it, I see that the former administration had no moral authority. I've seen this happen before.

Yes. Moral authority is based upon the moral authority of the definer. Textbook definition:The quality or characteristic of being respected (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/respect) for having good (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/good)character (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/character) or knowledge (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/knowledge), especially as a source of guidance (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/guidance) or an exemplar of proper (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/proper)conduct (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/conduct).

In the political race in question, the far right candidate has marginalized the more centrist Republican, who in turn chose to advocate for the Democratic centrist politician. It's not unusual, but shows how the far right element of the Republican party is basically destroying itself. They're doing a great job of giving votes to the Dems. Keep up the good work.

[QUOTE=phil;238055]Sigh. I would look forward to someone like Lugar coming to the forefront of the party, but he just can't excite the Republican base enough. I actually try very hard to find some elements that I can support. Unfortunately, it appears they've lost all moral authority.
From a lot of the posts that I read on the board, I can see why. The far right has become shrill, really angry at something most of them can't identify.
QUOTE]
This is a question - no issue-taking here : Is this saying the far right has lost all moral authority? I am not sure what constitutes a `far right' designation, any more than I am sure if the far left can go so far they are then into the right . So then, I have to ask what is the definition of moral authority...? Is it based on the moral attitude of the definer of the moment, his habits/practices of life?
I may be wrongly associating one paragraph to another, but it does give me a puzzlement: what is meant by `far right' and of which culture is the word `moral' - because the end result: certain posts are shrill & angry seems speculative.
Mr. Lugar is unfamiliar to me, the mail I get from the different parties is, naturally, weighted more to the party I'm registered with (for the purposes of being allowed to vote in the primaries) than the opposing. As an aside:
Every faith, religion, belief system, political & otherwise, have their share of unethical, immoral & amoral members; it's just that it is difficult for me to NOT associate those traits to the Czars - it just seems like those appointees are the shrill ones; granted, tho, they are definately aware of & have identified what/who they are angry with !!! - so - back to the question -
Thank you -:) grandma

phil

11-02-2009, 10:07 PM

Here's why the conservatives days are numbered.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091102/ap_on_el_ge/us_election_rdp

No one is happier than I am to have Sarah Palin still around. I just hope that she keeps going.

Steadygain

11-02-2009, 10:59 PM

What are your thoughts on that turn of events?

My main thoughts are way more in regards to the title of this Thread and the people so far who have contribitued.

James, Phil, Alevie, Grandma....

My gosh with this group we should be seeing really incredibly scholarly stuff; the kind of stuff that forces everyone else to think thoughts like 'Whoa... these guys (gals) really know there stuff'.

This thread should exemplify - the best of the best - and all others should be swooned and awed by what we share.

So with all that said -- allow me to start. The conservative party, as represented by the Republicians, have not only exhausted their fantasy role of 'improving the world' but they have literally destroyed almost any hope of being taken seriously due to the collective damage that has transpired over the years.

As 'Liberals and Moderates' - not in the 'traditional sense' of being on the opposite pole of a magnet that is grossly distorted and malfunctioned and totally lost in the Political Garbage --- but in the Sense of Those looking for a better world -- those who are willing and ready to think outside the box -- to herald in changes of a decent and lasting quality -- changes that will bring people to respect one another; restore dignity and self worth; changes that will motivate the need to be a contributing and productive citizen over the vain and empty desire to get hand outs....

If these changes are going to happen it will have to be with people that have 'fresh minds and fresh thoughts' and that's what the liberal and moderates are all about.

So here I am not promoting one Party that simply in essence keeps the other going -- with the same wheels spinning indefinately -- rather I am promoting something revolutionary that leads to sweeping changes across the board. Until the idea that a 'Government run by the People and for the People' becomes a living reality. Until all can finally come to realize that we are brothers and sisters -- and every life is sacred and all have worth and all should be brought up to regard one another that way.

This perhaps more than anything else would express the Liberal and Moderate Mindset -- and a progressive place.

phil

11-03-2009, 01:24 AM

Well said, SteadyGain.

James48843

11-03-2009, 10:38 AM

And now, a brief time out.

Remember, there are big issues that need to be addressed. But not without at least an occasional break, to refresh one's mind, and refocus on what is important. Now, a message to our President, our Senate, and our House leaders in Washington.

Take it away, John.....

-O7PnvVgQvA

XL-entLady

11-03-2009, 11:03 AM

I got quite a chuckle out of your choice of Beatles song, James, thanks! :D

That is the way I've felt ever since the new administration came in. So far I think they are probably earning about a B+ for the way they are cleaning up the messes made during the previous 8 years. I have my fingers tightly crossed. Love your new thread, too. "I was beginning to think that the Conservatives had taken over the MB," she says with tongue firmly in cheek. :cheesy:

Lady

phil

11-03-2009, 11:32 AM

Thanks James, for at least allowing some voice of dissent. I think that's how the former administration got into all the mess in the first place, by completely cutting out any voice of moderation that didn't serve its agenda, both nationally and internationally.

Steadygain

11-03-2009, 01:32 PM

Remember, there are big issues that need to be addressed.

It is with a breath of 'fresh air' that we start this thread and move forward. What a perfect way to begin my day.

Indeed the issues that need to be addressed not only directly impact on everyone reading this post -- but they impact on every person in both the United States and the future generations as well. Even beyond that we are increasingly being forced to recognize that we truly are a global society and therefore the more solidly and accurately we deal with the issues at hand the more it can serve as a means of helping those outside of our borders.

For Nations around the Globe have looked on us with admiration and respect and most of the peoples from other Nations have longed in their hearts to live like 'An American'. It is time we repair the damage and become the lighthouse to the world.

Thanks James, for at least allowing some voice of dissent. I think that's how the former administration got into all the mess in the first place, by completely cutting out any voice of moderation that didn't serve its agenda, both nationally and internationally.

Let us not be like the rest -- blindly blaming the former administration for everything -- looking for the quick and easy answer that puts the blame on GWB but fails to take into account the overall pictre -- but instead let all of us recognize that the ways of years and years of deceit and corruption brought both what GWB and BHO had to deal with. It is way more a gradual breakdown of all things sacred -- combined with increasingly better methods of keeping everything in the dark ... but it could only last so long and all of them knew at some point it would have to be uncovered.

So what we are dealing with primarily is not the last administration but it is way more the sheer fact that Politicians over the years have lost their ability to keep things hidden and only now are we beginning to honestly recognize the horrible circumstances by which JFK and the Administration before him were founded on. Going forward from these administrations we find things got worse.

That is the way I've felt ever since the new administration came in. So far I think they are probably earning about a B+ for the way they are cleaning up the messes made during the previous 8 years. I have my fingers tightly crossed.

Lady

Very few would have the insights and clarity that Lady has -- and indeed as much as BHO may be making efforts to clean up the mess of the past -- the damage that has transpired over many years and the variety of ways it extends throughout the world are not something that One Person can do -- especially when that Person is forced to begin his reign at the worst point of the hardest and most severe recession (depression) of our lifes.

The Recession (Depression) will cloud out every other issue but YES keep those fingers crossed (and keep those prayers going).

A wonderful morning to all !!

Silverbird

11-03-2009, 02:43 PM

Warning - Rant. Second Warning: I'm a Jim Webb Democrat - Jim Webb used to be a Republican (worked for Nixon), but wasn't acceptable to the leadership in that party.

Voted today in Virginia, it's depressing. Usually I vote for a mixed ticket, because the local Republicans used to be moderate, and the local Democrats used to be, well, only the brave and too idealistic tried to run because they always lost. I'm in Prince William County, lots of military families live here. This used to be the dividing line between the Democratic North and the Republican South, but stuck in the same voting district as Fairfax, so gets stuffed into Northern VA when Richmond votes on anything.

I voted straight Democratic this time. Not because I like the Democratic candidates. But because the Republicans are stuck on these ideals that get into my personal life. I'm holding my nose as I vote.

Govenor:McDonnell (R)/Deeds (D)
McDonnell - Nice moderate planks, but he's an old Jerry Faldwell hand. Yes, he lives in Northern VA. But he's out there with his ideals. My vote against is not going to count.
Deeds - Boring old school southern VA democrat, also with moderate planks, pro southern VA which means if he wins by some miracle, PW county will get the shaft again along with the rest of the NVA. But doesn't have these ideals about how to run your personal life.

Lt Govenor:
Bolling (R)/Wagner (D): You can't find anything on these two, outside of their commercials, except Bolling is Pro-life, and Wagner is Pro-Choice. Please keep out of family business unless you also find a way help the kids that ARE born.

Attorney General:
Cuccinelli (R)/Shannon (D): Ok, Cuccinelli doesn't want to enforce the laws as they are, he wants to change them. Isn't that the role of the legislature?

Local (51st district): Nichols (D)/Anderson (R)
Nichols (D), the incumbent, only got elected because the opposing candidate was an immigration lawyer (who also happened to be the local republican party head). On the Republican side, we have Anderson, who released Nichol's social security number in one of his campaign ads. This is a crime, as in identity theft. Not going to vote for Anderson, because he should know better.

Steadygain

11-03-2009, 03:54 PM

Well folks I'm sure I'm not the only one to shed a few tears and get bombarded with the emotional turmoil Silverbird must be dealing with.

Knowing about Prince William County -- or even Fairfax -- makes a big difference. We are talking very exception high quality stuff here...

... and unfortunately the Political World we mostly deal with is that world associated with our home and community.

In a nutshell -- what Silverbird is saying is: When you're forced to jump in the cess pool - even in the strongest and most sincere effort to find some 'golden nugget' often that is almost impossible because of what you're limited to choose from.

That's why sometimes the 'write in section' may be the best choice. If enough people throughout the USA wrote in 'Birchtree' the government would be forced to find him and put him in place. Just a thought my friends.... as I can't promote any Political canidate.

James48843

11-04-2009, 03:09 AM

New York's 23rd looking to be an interesting race shaping up. Maybe an all-nighter tonight.

Latest:
Owens leads in early New York returns
By Aaron Blake
11/03/09 10:40 PM ET

Democrat Bill Owens leads the special election in New York’s 23rd district 51-44 with about 33 percent of precincts reporting.

Though Conservative Party nominee Doug Hoffman appeared to have the momentum going into Election Day, the de facto Republican nominee is down in early returns.

phil

11-04-2009, 03:18 AM

I almost hope the conservative candidate wins. That will encourage the Palin crowd and probably cause the Republican moderates to finally abandon the party. I'm actually a bit sorry that they're doing this. It won't help bring some sense of polity into our Congress. Maybe that's the plan.

James48843

11-04-2009, 03:33 AM

Virginia governor's race was an expected rep win. They have gone opposite of the white house in every mid-term for decades. New Jersey- that was pretty much expected too- the NJ governor wasn't liked much.

But the 23rd is a real race.

I'd just as well see the Democrat win- remember, the right-wing "Club for Growth" jumped in with $1.1 million dollars in the last few days, as well as all the phony polling that went on over the last couple days.

We'll see how it all turns out in the end.

Owens, the Democrat, is currently ahead. But absentee ballots won't even be counted until tomorrow. Amazingly, the republican, who dropped out of the race, still garnered 5% of the votes cast TODAY, not even counting the absentees.

We'll see tomorrow.

(Wonder if the conservative's heads all explode tomorrow if they lose. The county was more recently represented by a member of the Whig party (1854) since the last time a Democrat won there.)

With 84% of preceincts reporting, the Democrat, Bill Owens, is ahead, (49.2%) to Conservative Doug Hoffman's 45.6%, with Republican Dede Scozzafava at 5.3%.

7146

Source: New York Times (http://elections.nytimes.com/2009/results/other.html)

James48843

11-04-2009, 04:40 AM

How about Maine?

Sex, drugs, and rock and roll?

Well, as Meatloaf said... 2 out of three ain't bad.....

7150

Maine voters are rejecting gay marriage *(too close to call) ,

but approve of medical marijuana.

I guess you could say...toke, but no poke. :blink:
(that's a joke.)

XL-entLady

11-04-2009, 02:17 PM

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

burrocrat

11-04-2009, 02:39 PM

...toke, but no poke...

i dont care who you are, thats funny right there.

phil

11-04-2009, 05:44 PM

While I don't object to gay marriage, I can understand a lot of people's difficulties with the issue. One other problem would be how to handle cases involving immigration. In a sense, we would be expanding the immigration pool radically if we did this. There are no federal statutes to deny immigration arising from gay marriage unions, as far as I can tell.

It's up to the voters in Maine how they want to decide, though I'm happy they changed the medical marijuana issue. I think it's better to legalize pot and thereby gain tax revenue in its sale.

Steadygain

11-04-2009, 06:14 PM

It's up to the voters in Maine how they want to decide, though I'm happy they changed the medical marijuana issue. I think it's better to legalize pot and thereby gain tax revenue in its sale.

I totally agree with that.

There is probably 'nothing' that could not be 'abused' in some manner and it's possible that some will get carried away and use it beyond the medical or moderately recreational benefit.

It would be far better to legalize pot and gain the tax revenue; as this would also elliminate the need for 'gang controlled' suppliers.

phil

11-04-2009, 09:34 PM

Just heard that Mayor Bloomberg spent about $180 per vote in his election campaign. He was able to pour in his own wealth into the process, but that's got to be expensive.

tsptalk

11-04-2009, 10:43 PM

Corzine spent about $115 per vote, and lost. I wonder if he would have gone the extra $65 for a win?

What do you think of these rich guys being able to, or trying to, buy the elections?

phil

11-05-2009, 12:01 AM

Well....it's their money. Sometimes candidates win without a huge influx of cash, but it's not the norm.

James48843

11-05-2009, 02:02 AM

Corzine spent about $115 per vote, and lost. I wonder if he would have gone the extra $65 for a win?

What do you think of these rich guys being able to, or trying to, buy the elections?

I think it's bad. When you can buy your way into office, it affects everything you do.

Here's an idea- a "political campaign spending tax".

Tax25% on ever dollar spent by a candidate, or candidate's committee. Put it in a fund for an opponent to share- call it the campaign equalization tax if you like. Candidate, or Party, or Special Interest group all hit equally.

Yes, if you want to put your message out there, you can. But if you really spend a lot, then some of that goes to the opposing force regardless. That way at LEAST you don't get outspent 10 to 1 or 20 to one.

Kind of a public financing of campaigns, by taxing the money spent on campaigns. That keeps it out of th pockets of those who don't want anything to do with campaign spending.

What do you think?

phil

11-05-2009, 02:23 AM

There's a saying: It's not a crime to be poor in America, but it may as well be. There are free speech questions here. It's their money, or maybe someone else's money who's fronting to be a tool of a specific interest or industry.

How about this: let's show on the week of the election exactly how much money each candidate has received from special interest groups, or at the ballot box. Also, spending must halt the week prior to the election. If the American voter could honestly make a choice based upon who is spending what, it becomes a different matter.

There's also the question of news services biased viewpoints. In many cases they too are fronting for some big money interests. During the war in Iraq, the level of investigative journalism was abysmal.

tsptalk

11-05-2009, 02:33 AM

Tax25% on ever dollar spent by a candidate, or candidate's committee. Put it in a fund for an opponent to share- call it the campaign equalization tax if you like. Candidate, or Party, or Special Interest group all hit equally.
That sounds a little too much like "spreading the wealth", but something needs to be done.

What if candidates could only match a percentage of campaign contributions - no more? So if it was, say 25%, then if they collect $1 million, they can contribute a maximum of $250K. ??

James48843

11-05-2009, 02:55 AM

What if candidates could only match a percentage of campaign contributions - no more? So if it was, say 25%, then if they collect $1 million, they can contribute a maximum of $250K. ??

The problem with that is that it's not just the candidates direct money that needs to be limited- it's all the special interest groups spending to promote or attack a candidate as well. Club for Growth spending a million bucks in the New York 23rd, for example. The conservative candidate didn't touch that money, but it was spent on his behalf.

Unless there is a way to limit ALL money, it wouldn't work.

But then again- there is no perfect solution, or someone would have thought of it already. Or those with the money would pay it to fight ever having limits put on it in any way.

Oh well.

Chalk one election that matters- the federal level, up to the left- Bill Ownes in New York 23rd. Joined also by a California dem in Congress as well.

So that's two Governors- which only affect the state level, for the republicans, and two congressman added to the House--- both dems.

That now makes the composition of the House + 1 for the Democrats- now at 258 to 177 for the republicans, Dems up +1 since last year.

James48843

11-05-2009, 03:17 AM

I just saw AARP is going to announce formal support of the health care bill.

Interesting.

AP sources: Dem Health bill to get AARP backing

WASHINGTON – In a coup for House Democrats, AARP will endorse sweeping health care overhaul legislation headed for a history-making floor vote, officials told The Associated Press on Wednesday.

An endorsement from the seniors' lobby was critical when then-President George W. Bush pushed the Medicare prescription drug benefit through a closely divided Congress in 2003. House Democratic leaders are hoping it will work the same political magic for them as they strive to deliver on President Barack Obama's signature issue.

An announcement from the 40-million member group is expected Thursday, said officials with knowledge of the group's decision. They spoke on condition of anonymity because the endorsement is not official yet."

More: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091105/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_overhaul

phil

11-05-2009, 08:29 PM

phil

11-06-2009, 02:43 AM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-11-05/why-democrats-are-smiling/

Unfortunately the center cannot hold. It's too bad, as I once considered myself a moderate Republican.

It looks as if the grand old party's tent has become too small for my type.

James48843

11-06-2009, 10:50 AM

Review of the New York 23rd-

How FOX NEWS. Sara Palin, and the Teabaggers insured the first Democrat victory in a district in more than 100 years.

http://www.dailykos.com/tv/w/002316/

malyla

11-06-2009, 01:46 PM

Review of the New York 23rd-

How FOX NEWS. Sara Palin, and the Teabaggers insured the first Democrat victory in a district in more than 100 years.

http://www.dailykos.com/tv/w/002316/

Good video. I love the history and then FOX's attempt to rewrite that story. Thanks.

alevin

11-06-2009, 02:07 PM

I hope it passes. It may cause a split in AARP, but I think it's right.

Health-Care Debate Fueling Generational Split at AARP

The debate over how to overhaul health care has widened a generational divide at AARP, the nation’s largest advocacy organization, reports The New York Times. (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/04/health/policy/04aarp.html?scp=15&sq=foundation&st=cse)
The group’s 40 million members are split about evenly between those who have access to Medicare and those between the ages of 50 and 64 who are too young to qualify for the federal health program. The younger group, as they age, face high premiums in the private insurance market, the newspaper reports.
AARP faces a delicate task in bridging the gap in its approach to the health-care overhaul. Organization leaders say they are focusing much of their work on strengthening Medicare but that they must also pay heed to younger members’ needs.

Yee-ess. I joined AARP for all of one year, since then I've chosen not to renew. there is a generational split but only partial. Others of my generation do not see any pitfalls and are totally dismayed at lack of support for health care bill. I drove home last night (2+ hours) with 2 close colleagues my age, listening to NPR the whole way-health care debate, Ft. Hood, all of it. I didn't try to debate health care bill with them, not articulate enough on topic yet to have fully resolved for myself but have reservations pursuant to further study.

The way I see it, no power, no influence, it will be what it ends up being, we'll live with both the upside and the downside; how it balances out, guess we'll see.

Frixxxx

11-06-2009, 02:11 PM

Good video. I love the history and then FOX's attempt to rewrite that story. Thanks.
I guess I don't understand your comment Malyla. Could you explain?

I saw a Democrat, a liberal Republican, and a Conservative.

The liberal republican dropped out and her votes were split plus some still voted for her. The liberal side of her votes went to the democrat and the conservative votes either stayed with her or went to the Conservative.

Where was the attempted history rewrite of the proceedings? :confused:

Silverbird

11-06-2009, 03:48 PM

I guess I don't understand your comment Malyla. Could you explain?

I saw a Democrat, a liberal Republican, and a Conservative.

The liberal republican dropped out and her votes were split plus some still voted for her. The liberal side of her votes went to the democrat and the conservative votes either stayed with her or went to the Conservative.

Where was the attempted history rewrite of the proceedings? :confused:
She's not a liberal, that's the point. If she has been a liberal she would never have been given support by the Republican party at first. She's a centralist. The only thing that seems to matter right now to the Republicans is how you feel about certain very personal matters which I think are none of the business of government to get involved in.

Frixxxx

11-06-2009, 04:00 PM

[QUOTE=Silverbird;238687]
Leading conservative voices — including The Wall Street Journal’s editorial page and The Weekly Standard and the talk show personalities Rush Limbaugh (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/rush_limbaugh/index.html?inline=nyt-per) and Glenn Beck (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/glenn_beck/index.html?inline=nyt-per) — took on the Republican nominee, Assemblywoman Scozzafava, who supports gay rights and abortion rights and had embraced some Democratic economic policies like the federal stimulus package (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/u/united_states_economy/economic_stimulus/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier). They labeled her as too liberal.

That's what I was referring to:blink:

Silverbird

11-06-2009, 04:14 PM

Frixxxx

11-06-2009, 05:48 PM

I think we are speaking on the same point. She has to be anti-abortion and anti-gay, and not be for anything currently in Congress for health care reform now to be in the Republican party. But to me, she's hardly a liberal, her elections planks were not even close to Barney Frank's - *he's* a liberal.

So what you've got is anyone who doesn't think abortion or gay rights or lack of them is something we shouldn't be spending our Government's time on, or doesn't think the current health care system in the U.S. works is going to have to be a Democrat. And that's a lot of people, but it's not a coalition under one ideology. It gets you liberals, centralists, libertarians (as in keep out of my bedroom), and not one flavor.

I am saying that as a republican, she is liberal in her stance. That's all!
The problem is there is not a "complete" party out there for most people. And isn't that our no. 1 complaint? I think the parties need to do a census and people need to start taking sides. Stand behind 10 distinct views and stay there. I think we would see a more balance of beliefs (not talking about religion) and more educated and civil discussions.

The problem here is this two party system has turned into extremism and not a fair & balance (hope Fox doesn't sue me) representation of our nation's people.

On topic:
To be progressive is to change the government as society changes, but exactly who's version of society are we asking for? Your's, mine, who gets to say? Humanists make things very generic from their standpoint and ask a leap of faith, with or without faith. So, being anti-gay or anti-abortion can be a choice with or without religion. All said, when extremists bellow the "sins" of certain policies, can they be accepted without the overlay of religion? Remember that many cultures hold contempt for homosexuals without religious overtones. Its their culture. Hence, their humanist nature is to not accept an aspect of human nature and remove/forbid it from their society.

Lot's to ponder this weekend!

James48843

11-06-2009, 11:49 PM

Reference NY 23rd- Glenn Beck, Rush, Sarah..et al:

That's the point Frixxx..... She (Dede) was selected by the parties officials in that district as the best candidate for the spot. She would have been elected by a wide margin, and would have been a republican vote in the House. But Rush, Sarah, Glenn Beck, and the rest ruined it for her. They destroyed the republican's chances of holding the seat, because to THEM, she wasn't pure enough.

Her county party wanted her- but those outside the district didn't want her. And called her "liberal". Made her sound evil. Ran a campaign against the official party nominee.

Think about that. THEY gave her a purity test. Not the voters of her district.

And the voters of the district rejected the conservative choice. In a district that should have been a strong republican win, voters rejected teaparty conservatism, BECAUSE of Sarah, Rush, Glenn, and the rest.

Go ahead. Keep up the Glenn Beck, Rush, and Sarah noise. That makes democrats win in districts they never would have had a chance in otherwise.

Nominate Sarah Palin in 2012. GO ahead and have Rush and Glenn be the cheerleaders in 2012.

I'd welcome it.

It's a sure guarantee to break apart what is left of the republican power in Washington.

James48843

11-06-2009, 11:54 PM

...
On topic:
To be progressive is to change the government as society changes, but exactly who's version of society are we asking for?

This is what makes America great-

That we are all one people- bound together as a nation, with differences from sea to shining sea. Each person, each district, each state, brings their own vales to the discussion. When we respect our differences, and realize that our differences don't harm us, but help us as a nation, we "progress".

When we fight, argue, bicker, call each other names, try to harm reputations, assert our values over other people- then we have lost part of what makes this nation great.

Of the people, by the people, for the people....

ALL the people.

phil

11-07-2009, 12:50 AM

If it weren't so sad, it would be funny. Here was an absolutely solid Republican district that was there for the taking for the GOP. Instead, we had the right wing sabotage the election because of their own ideological shift.

What they failed to realize was that the issues that the Republican candidate had supported were real to the voters of the district, and even to the GOP.

You get what you get. I'd like to say that the best Democratic supporter in the country is Sarah Palin right now. The longer she and Beck and Limbaugh are out there, the more votes the Democrats will receive.

Review of the New York 23rd-

How FOX NEWS. Sara Palin, and the Teabaggers insured the first Democrat victory in a district in more than 100 years.

http://www.dailykos.com/tv/w/002316/

mick504

11-07-2009, 01:03 AM

So I guess you're saying that the laws should accommodate the people, no matter how good or bad they are! So if we get a Hitler type running the country, we must change the laws to adapt to him and his ideas...no matter who gets killed by the progressive changes in the laws. Kill the unborn...and the aged...too expensive to care for. We should have principles first...and the laws should follow the principles. Laws should not be made to accommodate changes which degrade a society. I think the Post was Liberal before....but now we've become progressive...whether good or bad! I think we are getting a real dose of some progressive changes now....but these changes or not for the good of the country as a whole. Increased taxes because of a healthcare system during a time the country is at one of it's worst economic periods. Get a grip!

Boghie

11-07-2009, 01:14 AM

James,

Is is a Progressive practice to:

"She (Dede) was selected by the parties officials"

In my view, political parties should select their candidate through voter primaries - not via selection by a cadre of party officials. I have no faith or confidence in party officials.

Out here in Kalefornea, I can't see anything that maps her as even a centrist. She is probably center left.

burrocrat

11-07-2009, 01:29 AM

freedom of speach? sure, just watch what you say.

phil

11-07-2009, 01:42 AM

This was clearly a case of a Conservative attempt to take over a solid Republican district. I hope they keep doing it.

The 2009 special election for New York's 23rd congressional district was held on November 3, 2009, to select the successor to Republican (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Republican_Party_(United_States))John M. McHugh (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/John_M._McHugh), who resigned as representative of New York's 23rd congressional district (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/New_York%27s_23rd_congressional_district) to become United States Secretary of the Army (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/United_States_Secretary_of_the_Army) on September 21, 2009.
On September 29, 2009, New York Governor (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Governor_of_New_York)David Paterson (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/David_Paterson) issued a proclamation setting the special election to fill the vacancy for November 3, 2009, to coincide with the 2009 general election.New York (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/New_York) law does not provide for a primary election (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Primary_election) in cases of a special election for a vacant House (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/United_States_House_of_Representatives) seat. Instead, each party's nominee is chosen by that party's county leaders within the district.
The Democratic Party (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Democratic_Party_(United_States)) and Working Families Party (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Working_Families_Party) nominated businessman (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Businessperson) and attorney (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Attorney_at_law_(United_States))Bill Owens (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Bill_Owens_(New_York)), and the Conservative Party of New York (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Conservative_Party_of_New_York) nominated businessman and accountant (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Accountant)Doug Hoffman (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Doug_Hoffman). The Republican Party (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Republican_Party_(United_States)) and Independence Party (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Independence_Party_of_New_York) nominated State Assembly (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/New_York_State_Assembly) member Dierdre Scozzafava (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Dierdre_Scozzafava), who withdrew from the race three days before the election and endorsed the Democratic candidate.
On Election Day (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Election_Day_(United_States)), Owens defeated Hoffman 49.0% to 45.5% with Scozzafava, whose name remained on the ballot, receiving 5.5% of the vote.

phil

11-07-2009, 04:28 AM

Well, now you've got a Democrat in office.:laugh:

She probably could have been convinced to vote for many Republican initiatives. The Really Good News is.....now you don't have to worry about the way she would have voted any more.

James,

Is is a Progressive practice to:

"She (Dede) was selected by the parties officials"

In my view, political parties should select their candidate through voter primaries - not via selection by a cadre of party officials. I have no faith or confidence in party officials.

Out here in Kalefornea, I can't see anything that maps her as even a centrist. She is probably center left.

tsptalk

11-07-2009, 05:35 AM

And the voters of the district rejected the conservative choice. In a district that should have been a strong republican win, voters rejected teaparty conservatism, BECAUSE of Sarah, Rush, Glenn, and the rest.

Go ahead. Keep up the Glenn Beck, Rush, and Sarah noise. That makes democrats win in districts they never would have had a chance in otherwise.
I know this is the progressive thread so I won't hijack it. I'll hit and run and be done with it.

I absolutely, positively, sincerely believe you are looking at this all wrong. A wild eyed, goofy looking (he never blinked :nuts:), unknown, 3rd party candidate received 46% of the vote and lost by just 3%. Pretty impressive. Yes, the democrat may have won as a side affect of Glenn Beck, Rush, and Sarah's involvement, but the ramifications of this result goes way beyond a democrat win (I admit the dem win surprised me).

This will open the eyes of the weak republicans who may believe they will be the next one run over. The reps already admit they made a mistake backing Dede. A pro-choice republican who is affiliated with ACORN and whose husband is a union boss isn't going to cut it anymore.

Center-right to right wing voters are tired of liberal republicans (ala Bush). So this unknown guy may not have won, but he gave the 2 big parties a major scare - and this was just the first one so I am betting you will see more conservative republican candidates pop up between now and Nov 2010.

Now lets compare what the dems are saying about Obama not being the reason Corzine lost. I actually agree with them. I don't believe Obama hurt Corzine - as a matter of fact I think the only way Corzine got over 40% of the vote was because of Obama's help. I had predicted he wouldn't get 40% - but he did.

But if you agree with that, then you have to make the same argument regarding Palin, Rush, Beck, etc. They helped an unknown 3rd party candidate get 46% of the vote. Who knows what the outcome would have been if the 5% who voted for the republican knew she was no longer in the race. It was probably the voters who vote "R" across the board without reading the ballet. In other words, if Hoffman had the "R" next to his name on the ballet, he would likely have won in my opinion.

I think the republicans get it now. If not, expect more of the same. But if they do get it, then if the dems remain in denial of what actually happened in this race, even though the democrat won, I believe they are in big trouble in 2010.

Sorry. I went a little longer than I planned. Thanks for giving me a minute in Progressive Place. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming. :)

James48843

11-07-2009, 11:01 AM

So I guess you're saying that the laws should accommodate the people, no matter how good or bad they are!

No, laws don't accommodate the people, no matter how good or bad they are. Laws DO have to reflect respect for minority opinion- in a democracy for all of the people, and listen to what each segment of that democracy has to say.

The nation's founders ensured that no single majority could inflict their will on the minority.

......Increased taxes because of a healthcare system during a time the country is at one of it's worst economic periods. Get a grip!Increased taxed to fund the health care system that provides for all of the people? Yes- maybe that is part of the solution- if having the health care system means that we become more economically competitive in the world marketplace, why not?

As Mr. Spock once said...... sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.

It's just like that Progressive President we had in the 1950's- Dwight Eisenhower envisions the Interstate Highway system. That was something he saw in place in Germany during the second world war- the Autobahn. And he knew that if we built the same thing here it would do several things that benefited society as a whole. First and foremost, an Interstate Highway system would allow military movement across the nation at high speed, in case we needed to defend this place or that.

But at the same time, a military highway system could spur economic development, and bring different parts of the country into commerce with each other like never before. We spent billions of dollars in the 1950's and 1960's to build the Interstate Highway system. The right-wing of today would scream about the expense of doing such a project, and that it interfered with the land rights of land owners in the path. But it is hard to argue today that the investment in building Interstate Highways was anything but a progressive miracle that made society better.

James48843

11-07-2009, 11:07 AM

I know this is the progressive thread so I won't hijack it. I'll hit and run and be done with it.

I absolutely, positively, sincerely believe you are looking at this all wrong. A wild eyed, goofy looking (he never blinked :nuts:), unknown, 3rd party candidate received 46% of the vote and lost by just 3%. Pretty impressive. Yes, the democrat may have won as a side affect of Glenn Beck, Rush, and Sarah's involvement, but the ramifications of this result goes way beyond a democrat win (I admit the dem win surprised me).
:)

Yep- you are right in this angle-

The involvement and money from outside the district ensured that your candidate lost.

A third-party candidate ALMOST won.

O.K.- I'll buy that argument. They ALMOST won.

Almost counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons. It doesn't count for squat in politics. When you exclude large segments of the middle, you lose. It's a simple matter of 3rd grade mathmatics.

Like I say- go ahead and nominate Sarah in 2012. The middle and the left would like nothing more than to see that. We'll see how the American electorate reacts.

I continue to push for inclusion and respect for listening to the voices across the spectrum. You don't have to agree with them all, but the party that listens to all segments, and takes that into consideration when developing public policy, will go further in making changes for the better.

(I admit the dem win surprised me)

Remember the day before that election when you told me it was all over, and I said no, it isn't over until the votes are counted. Never believe a poll financed by supporters of that candidate, saying the candidate is ahead by 16% in the polls. It's the oldest trick in the book.

By the way, Tom, you are leading by 21 points in the Utah Senate race for 2012. You might was well not even take time to file for the seat, because you are so far ahead. :-)

Show-me

11-07-2009, 11:13 AM

Laws don't accommodate people. Really?

burrocrat

11-07-2009, 11:49 AM

How about Maine?

...toke, but no poke...

How about Massachusetts?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/06/barney-frank-present-partner-arrested-pot/

Apparently they do things a little different there, in this case,

...poke, but no toke...

How bout that for diversity? Guess you can have it both ways.

James48843

11-07-2009, 11:56 AM

...

...poke, but no toke...

How bout that for diversity?

At least they are close enough to each other to drive to where your fancy takes you.

OBGibby

11-07-2009, 12:59 PM

If I Were a Democrat I Wouldn't Be Smiling (http://clivecrook.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/11/why_democrats_aresmiling.php) - Clive Crook, The Atlantic

Some Absurd Post-Election Spin - Cost (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/horseraceblog/2009/11/my_favorite_postelection_meme.html)

James48843

11-07-2009, 01:41 PM

Congratulations, Gen. Casimir Pulaski, on becoming an American citizen.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091107/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_us_citizen_pulaski

Father of the American cavalry.

phil

11-07-2009, 02:07 PM

Pulaski County in Georgia was named after him for his heroic deeds outside Savannah trying to stop the British.

phil

11-07-2009, 11:47 PM

New York 23rd was a MAJOR victory in my opinion. The district hasn't been democratic since the Civil War. All it took was for the Conservative wing of the Republican party to attempt a takeover. If they keep going, they'll wreck a lot of other districts.

I'm not happy with it, but if they want to go after Lugar and the more rational wing of the party, then I'd say go ahead. I'd also like to say that Sarah Palin should run in 2012, but the only problem is that we've already been saddled with a terrible eight years of someone completely unqualified to be President......I'd hate to see it happen again.

I like it when the teabaggers start playing the great Who song: "We won't be fooled again". It's completely appropriate, though not in the way they think.

phil

11-08-2009, 11:47 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20091108/pl_politico/29281

A victory for Pelosi.

PessOptimist

11-09-2009, 12:29 AM

Yes. We shall see what the Senate comes up with now. Should be interesting.

malyla

11-09-2009, 03:31 PM

Did anyone else watch the 60 minutes article about the cyberwar vulnerability of the US infrastructure? The one thing that caught my attention was that about 12 terabites of data (a library of congress worth of information) was stolen by an unknown foriegn power in 2007 and the american people were never told about it due to the policies of the past administration. They even mentioned how thumbdrives were used to infiltrate the systems. There is even unused (unnecessary) circuitry on some of our imported hardware that can be used to shutdown those systems. Crazy.

tsptalk

11-09-2009, 04:39 PM

I saw that malyla. Pretty frightening. I guess we (USA) do the same but as they said, we have more to lose than they (the other countries involved) do.

I remember a couple of years ago in my agency when they were freaking out about security, including banning personal flash drives. That must have been about the when the chit was hitting the fan. We weren't told what was going on, but they sure made life tough for us programmers. They started drastically limiting access to data, which made it very tough to do our jobs.

phil

11-09-2009, 09:50 PM

The former administration was notorious for leaking classified information, and manufacturing intelligence for their own policy purposes. Quite a number of our intelligence and counterintelligence people saw the writing on the wall and left in 2004, leaving only amateurs in charge of our national security. George Tenet was the first, but so many others followed him out the door. Cybersecurity space is particularly vulnerable, but all the information in the world doesn't make us more or less secure. It's how we use it, or misuse it, that's important.

phil

11-11-2009, 05:21 AM

Sri Lanka has become the main source of illegal immigrants to Australia, ahead of Iraq and Afghanistan.

There are places in the globe that are much, much worse than either Iraq or Afghanistan.

phil

11-11-2009, 02:56 PM

A lot of the disapproval stems from how Iraq/Afghanistan are being handled, but keep in mind that more than half of the people now oppose sending more troops to Afghanistan, an increase from last month. Maybe the politically expedient thing to do would be to just bring everyone out. After Iraq, I don't think many in his political base would blame him.

Compared with October, 45 percent of people now disapprove of Obama's handling of Iraq, up from 37 percent; while 48 percent now disapprove of his handling of Afghanistan, up from 41 percent. A majority of Americans oppose both wars. And more than half — 54 percent — now oppose sending more troops to Afghanistan, an increase from 50 percent last month.

On health care, about half of the country approves of how Obama is doing on his signature domestic issue — virtually unchanged from October. In a major victory for Obama, the House passed a sweeping overhaul of the U.S. medical system over the weekend. But the fate of the measure is uncertain in the Senate, where moderate Democrats who are necessary for passage are balking at the cost and various provisions. Only a third of the country approves of how Congress is doing.

James48843

11-11-2009, 04:00 PM

A salute to all my fellow veterans, who have served in any capacity in the United States Military- the finest military in the history of mankind.

It is the Soldier, not the minister
Who has given us freedom of religion.

It is the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the Soldier, not the poet
Who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer
Who has given us freedom to protest.

It is the Soldier, not the lawyer
Who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the Soldier, not the politician
Who has given us the right to vote.

It is the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.

-Charles M. Province

Thank you each and every one who has served our nation.

Warrenlm

11-11-2009, 05:19 PM

phil

11-12-2009, 08:10 PM

Why Afghanistan is so difficult:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/11/karl-eikenberry-dissents_n_354657.html

What we're seeing is a lot of divergence of opinion between the civilian and military components in Afghanistan.

Here, the former commander of the forces in Afghanistan is saying that he doesn't need more troops.
He's right.

James48843

11-12-2009, 10:54 PM

From "Golefty" channel- an interview with "Bradblog- from the left"

This one titled "The Truth about teabaggers- "
Z7lbRINSUUo

Caution- could cause emotional distress to some.

phil

11-13-2009, 12:37 AM

Astroturf, pure and simple. The teabaggers are well funded from the far right.

James48843

11-13-2009, 02:22 AM

Republican National Committee's Employee Health Plan covers elective abortion.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/29456

nnuut

11-13-2009, 03:34 AM

I really go along with President Obama on this one, but it should be changed to stop abuses of the law.:cool:

The Roe decision was opposed by Presidents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States) Gerald Ford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ford),[82] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_vs_Wade#cite_note-81) Ronald Reagan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan),[83] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_vs_Wade#cite_note-82) and George W. Bush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush).[84] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_vs_Wade#cite_note-83) President George H.W. Bush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H.W._Bush) also opposed Roe, though he had supported abortion rights earlier in his career.[85] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_vs_Wade#cite_note-84)[86] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_vs_Wade#cite_note-85) In addition, as governor of California, Ronald Reagan had legalized abortion in 1967.
Jimmy Carter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter) supported legal abortion from an early point in his political career, in order to prevent birth defects and in other extreme cases; he encouraged the outcome in Roe and generally supported abortion rights.[87] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_vs_Wade#cite_note-86) Roe was also supported by President Bill Clinton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton).[88] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_vs_Wade#cite_note-87) President Barack Obama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama) has taken the position that, "Abortions should be legally available in accordance with Roe v. Wade."[89] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_vs_Wade#cite_note-88)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_vs_Wade

phil

11-14-2009, 12:11 AM

Without agreeing with the President on the abortion issue, I think that this last-minute attempt to chock the wheels on healthcare reform is just another political trick from the well-funded health insurance industry.

It needs to pass. I think the bill is flawed by giving way too much away to the industry, but it's a start.

I wonder how many more astroturf groups will pop up to oppose this in the last minute.

nnuut

11-14-2009, 01:58 AM

Teabaggers, that's funny! What I see is a bunch or Americans especially elderly, real people that are legitimately concerned as to the direction the Government is pushing this Country. Don't make fun of the Seniors, they are your Parents and Grand Parents you know the ones on Social Security and Medicare that are going to lose coverage and take a hit in the wallet when they don't have the money!! The ones that fought for our freedom years ago, real men and women that sacrificed for us just to watch us cast them aside in their old age. And what's wrong with Red Necks, they are in every state just out of town in the country, and the big cities working hard and paying their bills not mooching from other citizens. Don't make fun of the Red Necks they have all the Guns you might need their help someday.:cool:

phil

11-14-2009, 03:02 AM

I'll do without, thanks. I lived in the state of Georgia for many many years. I'm well aware of the people that you're speaking of.

nnuut

11-14-2009, 01:45 PM

I'll do without, thanks. I lived in the state of Georgia for many many years. I'm well aware of the people that you're speaking of.
That's what I thought you would say Phil.

phil

11-14-2009, 04:13 PM

Better yet, I grew up on a farm in Georgia, so I'm really well aware of whom you speak. As far as Presidents go, I think Jimmy Carter is the best of the group.

phil

11-14-2009, 04:26 PM

Here's some interesting information on Sarah Palin's new book "Going Rouge....er....Rogue".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091114/ap_on_en_ot/us_palin_book_fact_check

McDuck

11-14-2009, 06:01 PM

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/11/obama-emperor-akihito-japan.html

phil

11-14-2009, 06:11 PM

It's perfectly acceptable. Here's what you may not know: The emporer of Japan is a SYMBOLIC head of state, whereas President Obama is the real head of state of the US.

The Emporer has been around for many, many years, much longer than any head of state outside of maybe Fidel Castro.

President Obama has a lot of bridges to rebuild. Instead of sending a carrier battle group to Japan, let's just save a LOT of money and send a delegation.

After all, diplomacy is the best way of doing things.
The article mentioned MacCarthur. He was FIRED by President Truman for the exact right reason. He did not have a mandate for invading China, and the Chinese military knocked us all the way back in Korea for a long time, and probably caused the deaths of many thousands of Americans, Koreans and Chinese, needlessly. In the end, the result of his actions probably helped to create North Korea. Thanks a lot.
Oh yes: Thanks for reading our posts here. All are welcome.

McDuck

11-14-2009, 06:54 PM

In the end, the result of his actions probably helped to create North Korea. Thanks a lot.

North Korea existed for the Korean War.

McDuck

11-14-2009, 07:02 PM

Here's some interesting information on Sarah Palin's new book "Going Rouge....er....Rogue".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091114/ap_on_en_ot/us_palin_book_fact_check

Could you point me to a similar fact check article about Hillary or Slick Willie's books?

phil

11-14-2009, 07:09 PM

With the DPRK forces largely destroyed, troops of the Chinese People's Liberation Army (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/People%27s_Liberation_Army) (PLA) quietly crossed the Yalu River. Chinese foreign minister Zhou Enlai (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Zhou_Enlai) issued warnings via India (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/India)'s foreign minister, Krishna Menon (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Krishna_Menon), that an advance to the Yalu would force China into the war. When questioned about this threat by President Truman and Secretary of State Dean Acheson (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Dean_Acheson), MacArthur dismissed it completely. MacArthur's staff ignored battlefield evidence that PLA troops had entered North Korea in strength. The Chinese moved through the snowy hills, struck hard, and routed the UN forces, forcing them on a long retreat. Calling the Chinese attack the beginning of "an entirely new war," MacArthur repeatedly requested authorization to strike Chinese bases in Manchuria (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Manchuria), inside China. Truman was concerned that such actions would draw the Soviet Union into the conflict and risk nuclear war.

phil

11-14-2009, 07:14 PM

On Hillary Clinton: Here's a link to a fact check, if you care to view it. She was a GOLDWATER Republican, if you can believe it. I guess she changed, after seeing the facts on the other side. She also worked as an intern for Gerald Ford. This is Progressive Place, as opposed to Conservative Place. But glad to see you reading the posts.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_hillary_clinton_work_for_goldwater.html

Could you point me to a similar fact check article about Hillary or Slick Willie's books?

McDuck

11-14-2009, 07:34 PM

This is Progressive Place, as opposed to Conservative Place. But glad to see you reading the posts.

In my government school education, the Progressives were lead by Robert "Fighting Bob" La Follette and that movement end in the 1920s.

Why are ya'll uncomfortable with the label "Liberal", "Democrat", "Leftist", or "Socialist"? In the general sense of the word, I consider myself to be a progressive.

McDuck

11-14-2009, 07:36 PM

On Hillary Clinton: Here's a link to a fact check, if you care to view it. She was a GOLDWATER Republican, if you can believe it. I guess she changed, after seeing the facts on the other side. She also worked as an intern for Gerald Ford. This is Progressive Place, as opposed to Conservative Place. But glad to see you reading the posts.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_hillary_clinton_work_for_goldwater.html

Thanks. But I was asking for one for all of her book "Makingup History". And one from the AP would be good to show they are fair and balanced.

McDuck

11-14-2009, 07:38 PM

James48843

11-14-2009, 08:44 PM

Could you point me to a similar fact check article about Hillary or Slick Willie's books?

That's your job.

McDuck

11-14-2009, 10:33 PM

That's your job.
You seem to have plenty of time to dig up stuff.
Are you interested in finding out things that only reinforce your existing opinions? How is that Progressive?

Two thoughts for this weekend:

“Like a drunk uses a lamppost: For support rather than illumination.”

"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so." - Ronaldo Maximus October 27, 1964

McDuck

11-14-2009, 10:44 PM

"You dispel all the negative images we have been programmed to conjure up with just the mention of that word socialism or Marxism."

At the end off the clip Wright describes America as the "Land of the greed and home of the slave."

gj3jyW-kSFI

tsptalk

11-14-2009, 11:08 PM

McDuck

11-14-2009, 11:18 PM

Hi McD -

This isn't the thread to argue political counter-points. Your counterparts will probably be glad to take you and the issues on in one of the other polical threads, but like the "Conservatives Only" thread, I believe this one was set up for "progressives" to talk things out. Let's respect their space. Thanks!
If that the case, then what a Progressive is needs to be defined. I consider myself to be progressive so therefore this is the place for me.

tsptalk

11-14-2009, 11:34 PM

If that the case, then what a Progressive is needs to be defined. I consider myself to be progressive so therefore this is the place for me.
Somehow, I don't think you fit the definition McD. :)

Progressive (http://www.answers.com/progressive):

noun

A person with liberal political opinions: liberal (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/liberal), liberalist (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/liberalist). See politics (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/politics-similar-words).

adjective
Ahead of current trends or customs: advanced (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/advanced), forward (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/forward), precocious (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/precocious). See precede/follow (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/precede-follow).
Not narrow or conservative in thought, expression, or conduct: broad (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/broad), broad-minded (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/broad-minded), liberal (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/liberal), open-minded (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/open-minded), tolerant (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/tolerant). See attitude/good attitude/bad attitude/neutral attitude (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/attitude-good-attitude-bad-attitude-neutral-attitude), wide/narrow (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/wide-narrow).
Favoring civil liberties and social progress: liberal (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/liberal), liberalistic (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/liberalistic). See politics (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/politics-similar-words).

McDuck

11-14-2009, 11:47 PM

adjective

Ahead of current trends or customs: advanced (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/advanced), forward (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/forward), precocious (http://www.tsptalk.com/topic/precocious).

I fit this one.

And I'm open-minded in # 2.

McDuck

11-14-2009, 11:56 PM

but like the "Conservatives Only" thread,

I never post over there because I felt I didn't fall under that label.

tsptalk

11-15-2009, 12:22 AM

If you claim that you aren't conservative, and you certainly are not progressive (as it is defined in politics) then you may need an additional thread that defines you and your beliefs.

So, figure out what you are, start your own thread with its own a political label, and voice your opinions there.

Again, the progressive place and conservatives only threads are not places to bicker with others' beliefs. We have other threads for that. They were created as sanctuaries for like minded folks.

Thanks

phil

11-15-2009, 03:03 AM

Then say it correctly.

North Korea existed for the Korean War.

I was aware of that. I was replying "North Korea existed before the Korean War."

phil

11-15-2009, 03:05 AM

Interesting quote. Progressive space is used for progressive ideas. I'm really unsure as to how any of your ideas are progressive by any stretch of the imagination. About reinforcing "existing" opinions as opposed to "new" opinions, there's really nothing new that I don't see posted all over this site already.

You seem to have plenty of time to dig up stuff.
Are you interested in finding out things that only reinforce your existing opinions? How is that Progressive?

Two thoughts for this weekend:

“Like a drunk uses a lamppost: For support rather than illumination.”

"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so." - Ronaldo Maximus October 27, 1964

nnuut

11-15-2009, 01:40 PM

Better yet, I grew up on a farm in Georgia, so I'm really well aware of whom you speak. As far as Presidents go, I think Jimmy Carter is the best of the group.

Thanks Phil, I needed that, at least you have a sense of humor!! :D
7256 7255

nnuut

11-15-2009, 01:43 PM

Birchtree

11-15-2009, 09:59 PM

How did I know that phil would be one to fondle Jimmy (yellow back) Carter.

phil

11-15-2009, 10:43 PM

Fondle? I'll leave that sort of thing to you. You seem to have a good grip on that.

phil

11-15-2009, 11:33 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20091115/us_time/08599193867100

Interesting commentary about what we can learn from the Chinese.

McDuck

11-16-2009, 03:36 AM

How did I know that phil would be one to fondle Jimmy (yellow back) Carter.
In my neck of the woods, we call it having a yellow belly.

James48843

11-16-2009, 04:36 AM

President Obama speaking in Shanghai.

Pretty interesting press conference. Nice zinger question by the kid talking about harmony vs. diversity.

I think he is doing a superior job in this Chinese town hall meeting- focusing on Human Rights issues, in a diplomatic way.

phil

11-16-2009, 09:31 AM

Gee McDuck, what about the era of big government you kept talking about being over during the Bush administration? Do you not have an answer? Or just not want to? Or can't? Take your pick.

Welcome back to Progressive Place. I can see that you deleted your former response on the other section. Why?

President Clinton will be seen in history as one of the better Presidents we've had, though I will say that he bears some responsibility for the current economic problems. Being saddled with a conservative Republican Congress probably didn't help much. Now it looks like the administration has become Democratic and can finally address some of the structural problems in the economy.

Era of big government over? That's weird, since we had larger government outlays under Bush than we had under Clinton. In Clinton's first term, federal expenditures rose 4.7 percent. In his second term, they rose 3.7 percent. In the first term of the Bush administration, however, spending rose 19.2 percent.
Cumulative growth in federal expenditures, adjusted for inflation, during the Clinton years actually shrank by 1.1 percent. Yet, in the Bush first term, it rose 15 percent. McDuck, didn't you notice? It's all available news. Just look at the budget office and outlays.

When Bill Clinton was elected we were in debt. When he left office, not only did we have a balanced budget, but a surplus. Even if you take the bailouts of these banks out of the equation, Bush has left America trillions in debt. He has even borrowed money from other countries. It will take many many years before this country is solvent again.

Double entendre noted. McDuck is VERY progressive, it seems.

SDSU Associated Students to March in Protest of Budget Cuts (http://sdgln.com/news/2009/11/13/sdsu-associated-students-march-protest-budget-cuts)San Diego Gay & Lesbian News

phil

11-16-2009, 07:28 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091116/pl_afp/japanusdiplomacyasiaobama

It seems all the conservatives have to discuss is President Obama's bow to the Japanese emperor.

phil

11-16-2009, 07:47 PM

Will the Obama administration create a renaissance of crazy right wing militia groups?

Remember the good old days when right wingers would roll around in the dirt and play with guns? Back when Clinton was president, survivalism was a cottage industry. Me, I like to go camping, and I also like to keep a lot of freeze-dried stuff...from my days as a Boy Scout leader. I don't keep guns, however.

Where are we going with this? I'm seeing a number of groups around the country. I don't challenge their right to exist, but I am disturbed by the nuance of violence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDy3QX9eCsE&feature=related

James48843

11-17-2009, 04:05 AM

ppDhPYMxWhI

phil

11-17-2009, 04:13 AM

That's funny. I remember the teabaggers coming into Washington. I didn't quite understand what their agenda was, outside of being against taxes. Eight years too late for that.

James48843

11-17-2009, 04:29 AM

nunTTyfCr8Y

phil

11-17-2009, 09:51 AM

"Healthcare is a right, not a privelege for the wealthy"

Congressman Boehner probably just doesn't get out to talk to that many people in his district. He can buy a bunch of votes with all that money from the insurance industry.

McDuck

11-18-2009, 01:32 AM

How did I know that phil would be one to fondle Jimmy (yellow back) Carter.

Carter defends his handling of Iran hostage crisis (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2009-11/17/content_8984162.htm)

phil

11-18-2009, 01:52 AM

Nice post. I can easily see that former President Carter is actively trying to help people in the world, and his talk about the Iran hostage crisis is dead on.

In an area of the world where many people live in deplorable conditions, we have a chance to help families improve their housing," said Carter, wearing sneakers, jeans and a work shirt. He and his wife spent Monday helping build 82 homes in honor of Thai King Bhumibol Adulyadej, who celebrates his 82nd birthday next month.

I've also done work with Habitat. It's a tough job. If you're out to actually help people, it doesn't pay anything, but offers great reward.

McDuck

11-18-2009, 02:10 AM

Never mind

McDuck

11-18-2009, 02:17 AM

Never mind
(http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/16/how-andy-stern-got-around-obamas-no-lobbyist-policy-he-just-didnt-register/)

McDuck

11-18-2009, 02:21 AM

Oldest newspaper for gays and lesbians shutting down (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.50fd6792b83ac59fea414195ebeb58b 3.431&show_article=1)

phil

11-18-2009, 02:22 AM

Well, not quite as good as the last post.

From the article:
The way they see it, with the right dictator, the State would hand them money for film projects and jail anyone who criticized them in print or elsewhere. Hugo Chavez shutting television stations down doesn’t horrify Leftist Hollywood, it makes them giddy.

No....I really don't see that at all. If we look back in our history, we really can't see that any Democratic President was engaged in censorship. In fact, most of the time they've stood quite firmly on civil liberties.

Can I ask? Do you actually believe this stuff?

Thanks for the nice post on former President Carter, though. It shows what a great person he is, and what he stands for.

John Nolte: Why Leftist Hollywood Loves Dictators (http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/jjmnolte/2009/11/17/why-leftist-hollywood-loves-dictators/)
1 hour ago

phil

11-18-2009, 02:31 AM

Thanks again for posting this. It's always nice when people show everyone what a great President is doing now. I didn't realize that you really liked President Carter, but now I see you really do.

Nice post. I can easily see that former President Carter is actively trying to help people in the world, and his talk about the Iran hostage crisis is dead on.

In an area of the world where many people live in deplorable conditions, we have a chance to help families improve their housing," said Carter, wearing sneakers, jeans and a work shirt. He and his wife spent Monday helping build 82 homes in honor of Thai King Bhumibol Adulyadej, who celebrates his 82nd birthday next month.

I've also done work with Habitat. It's a tough job. If you're out to actually help people, it doesn't pay anything, but offers great reward.

Carter defends his handling of Iran hostage crisis (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2009-11/17/content_8984162.htm)

McDuck

11-18-2009, 02:46 AM

11/17/2009
China Turns to Adam Smith; Westerners to Marx (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/6584906/China-turns-to-Adam-Smith.html)
The Daily Telegraph

XL-entLady

11-18-2009, 03:14 AM

James, love the thread. I was laughing so loudly at "Learn to Speak Teabag" that spouse came in to see what was so funny! :nuts:

Thanks for the chuckle,
Lady

phil

11-18-2009, 11:40 AM

Thank God for the EU!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/piracy

While we're so busy doing whatever in Iraq, the EU is able help protect our merchant fleet from their base in Djibouti, protecting our economic interests in the world. Considering their limited forces, they deserve a lot of credit.
An EU patrol aircraft from the Horn of Africa nation Djibouti was called in to investigate, and the closest EU Naval Force vessel was tasked with searching for the pirate attack group, the EU Naval Force said in a statement.

Thank God for the EU!

phil

11-18-2009, 12:09 PM

Yes. That was too bad. Well, I think that there are a good number of online places for you these days. And it's only Washington. There are many other alternative lifestyle forums around the country, so don't feel shut out. I've included them below to help you.

Bay Windows (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Bay_Windows_(newspaper))
Between the Lines (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Between_the_Lines_(newspaper))
Dallas Voice (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Dallas_Voice)
Frontiers (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Frontiers_(magazine))
Gay and Lesbian Times (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Gay_and_Lesbian_Times)
The New York Blade (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/The_New_York_Blade)
Philadelphia Gay News (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Philadelphia_Gay_News)

Oldest newspaper for gays and lesbians shutting down (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.50fd6792b83ac59fea414195ebeb58b 3.431&show_article=1)

phil

11-18-2009, 08:12 PM

I hope I was able to help, McDuck. I'm not gay myself, but I'm very understanding about others alternate lifestyle choices. I'm truly sorry that you've lost one of your publications. I always thought some of their articles on entertainment were interesting, anyway.

Best of luck!

Birchtree

11-18-2009, 08:34 PM

phil,

Did I hear you correctly - did you say you had a lust in your heart for jimmy carter?

phil

11-18-2009, 08:37 PM

If I had, then you would have posted it as a quote.....like this. I am understanding of other people and their lifestyle choices, however. Almost always, that is. As long as it's consenting adults. So....whatever it is that you have going on there, I wish you well.

phil,

Did I hear you correctly - did you say you had a lust in your heart for jimmy carter?

Buster

11-18-2009, 09:05 PM

Yes. That was too bad. Well, I think that there are a good number of online places for you these days. And it's only Washington. There are many other alternative lifestyle forums around the country, so don't feel shut out. I've included them below to help you.

Bay Windows (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Bay_Windows_%28newspaper%29)
Between the Lines (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Between_the_Lines_%28newspaper%29)
Dallas Voice (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Dallas_Voice)
Frontiers (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Frontiers_%28magazine%29)
Gay and Lesbian Times (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Gay_and_Lesbian_Times)
The New York Blade (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/The_New_York_Blade)
Philadelphia Gay News (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Philadelphia_Gay_News)

Not surprising that you know about these forums.:laugh:

phil

11-18-2009, 09:31 PM

Nope. Not surprising at all. By the way, all of these people are Americans, with rights, and they vote, too. Unlike others, I know this.

By the way, women can vote also. And blacks and hispanics and other minorities. They have rights as well. I know that too.

Maybe you should get to know them at some point in your life. They're regular, normal people with normal lives. They pay taxes, just like the rest of us. Perhaps many of them pay more in taxes than I do.

Make sure you let everyone know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log_Cabin_Republicans

Do you live in a sort of sheltered bubble? I have to meet all types of people in my day to day life. Not all of them are like me, and that's okay.

XL-entLady

11-19-2009, 02:10 AM

James48843

11-19-2009, 02:16 AM

Thanks Lady- that's a good idea- let's get back on track.

Progressive ideas.

How do we work together to make America a better place for all?

James48843

11-19-2009, 02:37 AM

Question:

We're about to head into the home stretch on some serious health care reform. Here's the message that a group of pro-reformers chose to carry the message on the next leg of the trip-

mkDhKHD52tk

Personally, I'm not sure this message will resonate strongly enough with the middle out there. We need to bring the middle into the mix if we're going to get the support to push it forward in the Senate. Polls continue to say there is support for major health care reform- but when you pin down people on exact language- we still are getting some splinters off this way and that, causing it to be very difficult to get the 60 votes needed in the Senate to cut off the expected filibuster, and still have something that will get a simple majority back in the House. We need BOTH to move to the final hurdle- the President's desk.

So the question is this- What needs to be in the final package, that enough people will support to get the votes needed?

Polling is showing the Stupak Amendment has widespread support of the middle. But the left is pushing back hard on that.

7278

And polling is showing widespread support for a public option- but the right is pushing back on that.

7277

What is the balance for the plan that can pass?

What can be in, and still pass both houses?

The polls above - both of which show sufficient support for both ideas as being the majority of Americans, indicate America would support both. But those on the far ends of both are pushing to kill each idea. I would hope majority middle ground would prevail, and both survive in the final bill. But I'm only one person.

What are YOUR Thoughts?

I'm thinking Stupak, or a very close version of Stopak will make it in the final bill. And doing Public option may do it- although there is talk of making public option an option.

What do YOU think will move ahead, and what are you doing to make your voice heard?

*polls from http://pollingreport.com today.

phil

11-19-2009, 02:44 AM

Let's hope Healthcare gets by.....with or without Stupak. I'm willing to see some changes in the bill, without killing it. Right now, in my opinion it's been watered down to the extreme. The idea of some people having to sell their homes to survive should send messages to Congress.

Here's the thing: I almost wish they don't pass it, then the administration can go back to the American people and present the agenda again at the next election. Then the insurance companies can run really scared. Kucinich can run the plan he wanted.

Here's another way to fund healthcare.....stopping government waste.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091118/ap_on_bi_ge/us_government_waste

With the huge waste in government contracts already out there, the current administration is seeking to cut down. Sounds good. 98 Billion is a lot of money.

James48843

11-19-2009, 02:57 AM

Sarah Palin- Glenn Beck ticket for 2012?

Newsmax:

"I can envision a couple of different combinations, if ever I were to be in a position to really even seriously consider running for anything in the future, and I'm not there yet," Palin tells Newsmax. "But Glenn Beck I have great respect for. He's a hoot. He gets his message across in such a clever way. And he's so bold — I have to respect that. He calls it like he sees it, and he's very, very, very effective."

phil

11-19-2009, 03:24 AM

That's funny beyond belief. Beck and Palin 2012. I think another one would be a Limbaugh/Coulter ticket.

For me, they're both winners. We wouldn't even need to put up anyone.
Like most of the people on the left, I certainly didn't start there, but was driven there by what I saw as the insane policies of the right over the years.

That ticket would appeal to a certain group of people.....the clinically insane and xenophobic. The average IQ of most Fox News viewers is probably sub-moronic. The New York Post is written on a 5th grade reading level......for good reason.

With Beck, Palin, Fox News and Ann Coulter out there in the airwaves, we no longer hear the term "Intellectual Conservatism". Even William Kristol is quiet as a church mouse these days. I don't wonder why.

phil

11-19-2009, 05:22 AM

http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/14/fox-news-barack-obama-media-opinions-contributors-s-robert-lichter.html?partner=popstories

is a forbes story on the fact that Faux News is "fair and balanced". No, really!

Do you know who states it as a "true fact"?

Why none other than Center for Media and Public Affairs!

The Center for Media and Public Affairs was founded in the mid 1980s by S. Robert Lichter (http://www.tsptalk.com/index.php?title=S._Robert_Lichter) and Linda Lichter (http://www.tsptalk.com/index.php?title=Linda_Lichter).According to Salon.com, "the seed money for [the] center was solicited by the likes of Pat Buchanan (http://www.tsptalk.com/index.php?title=Pat_Buchanan) and Pat Robertson (http://www.tsptalk.com/index.php?title=Pat_Robertson)".

"The IRS form 990 returns filed by [Lichter's] center redacts the names of all the individuals and organizations that contribute to it, thereby concealing them from public scrutiny.

It seems they just don't want us to know who's bought them. This probably sounds suspiscious. It is.

By the way, how gullible are Fox News watchers?
Fifty-seven percent believed the falsity that Iraq gave substantial support to Al-Qaida, or was directly involved in the September 11 attacks (48% after invasion).
Sixty-nine percent believed the falsity that Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the September 11 attacks.
Twenty-two percent believed the falsity that weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq. (Twenty-one percent believed that chem/bio weapons had actually been used against U.S. soldiers in Iraq during 2003)

Silverbird

11-19-2009, 01:38 PM

Sigh, Phil, the last station I want to hear about on this thread is Fox.

Silverbird

11-19-2009, 01:44 PM

Em...see what happens when you talk about Fox? :cool: Now it's Sarah "definately not progressive" Palin (whether you like her or not, I think everyone would agree she's conservative and belongs on the other thread).

Frixxxx

11-19-2009, 02:13 PM

I was just reading through the back posts on this thread to try to get a sense of what "Progressive Place" was about. Hm-m-m, looks like folks are trying to take James's good idea and turn it into "Argument Alley" instead. :o

c'mon folks, let's try it again. Progressive Place. :)

Lady

I tried on the sixth to put it on track.
http://www.tsptalk.com/mb/showpost.php?p=238716&postcount=43
But it was in vain.

It's a nice try Lady, but you just can't seem to get past thread hijacks occurring on this site:
http://www.tsptalk.com/mb/showpost.php?p=240592&postcount=409
http://www.tsptalk.com/mb/showpost.php?p=240437&postcount=125

Progressive post part: I think that we as Americans should start looking at removing the state boundaries. If we move more to a populous and universal country perspective, then 99% of our problems will be resolved. If we focus on our country's infrastructure to support ourselves and then move outward, I think we can invoke a change that is from a heartland perspective instead of an elitist's.
If we are to move to a less definitive model, then do it by reducing layers of government that are redundant. That will allow the "less government" advocates get what they want without reducing programs. It will also keep the programs that are more "socially" acceptable.:cool:

alevin

11-19-2009, 02:48 PM

Frixxxx

11-19-2009, 03:06 PM

Our aging electricity transmission system needs to be updated and expanded. Demand for electricity is still going up, current infrastructure can't carry all that is currently available during peak production periods, at least in the NW. Fortunately increased transmission capacity is in the works across the NW, east-west, at least 2 lines that I know of-main question at the moment is siting (on-the-ground placement) among several different routes the new lines could take. Don't know how fast the decisions will be made but the public is being given opportunity to provide feedback as we speak.

Production in the NW is hydro, coal (western low-sulfur) and wind for the most part. Used to have nuclear. Could again if they could improve location (groundwater and soil contamination and flood vulnerability issues) including low-level waste storage.
This is what I'm talking about!

Energy is one aspect fo our infrastructure - Depending on one's location, it could be any type of combustible, hydro, solar, nuclear...let's review the ways to generate and focus on getting our population focused to train/educate specific groups of people to do this.

Transportation - more trains less trucks. Less trucks on the road means less wear and tear on the pavement/asphalt. Invest in bulk transportation. And then in public transportation.

THERE ARE TONS of progressive people that already have great answers for these issues. These people should be in the positions to MAKE decisions and not be "consultants".

The people want these things.:cool:

James48843

11-19-2009, 05:16 PM

Run with it!

phil

11-19-2009, 07:30 PM

Noted.

Em...see what happens when you talk about Fox? :cool: Now it's Sarah "definately not progressive" Palin (whether you like her or not, I think everyone would agree she's conservative and belongs on the other thread).

phil

11-19-2009, 07:37 PM

I think the basic grid is pretty good in North America, though more capacity is needed. We shunt power across the Canadian grid every day. It goes back and forth along the whole grid, delivering during peak periods of time. Really I think nuclear is the way to go. Ground water contamination threats are usually pretty low level with the new reactors.

One major goal would be to get rid of our oil dependence. I think that's doable up to a certain level. Even if synthetic fuels are a little dirty, if
it's economically feasible, I think we should go ahead with a larger synfuel plant.

Our aging electricity transmission system needs to be updated and expanded. Demand for electricity is still going up, current infrastructure can't carry all that is currently available during peak production periods, at least in the NW. Fortunately increased transmission capacity is in the works across the NW, east-west, at least 2 lines that I know of-main question at the moment is siting (on-the-ground placement) among several different routes the new lines could take. Don't know how fast the decisions will be made but the public is being given opportunity to provide feedback as we speak.

Production in the NW is hydro, coal (western low-sulfur) and wind for the most part. Used to have nuclear. Could again if they could improve location (groundwater and soil contamination and flood vulnerability issues) including low-level waste storage.

Silverbird

11-19-2009, 08:13 PM

The problem with the grid in the U.S. is, it's old, and second, it was not built to deal with intermittent sources of power, such as wind and solar. Unfortunately, unlike oil, natural gas, or coal, we can't add reserves of sun and wind on demand. Also, the customer has no idea how much his electricity costs at different times - though personally I think this metering stuff can go overboard.

The current transmission method also has this darned tendency to go down in strong winds, and to get hit by falling trees.

Steadygain

11-19-2009, 08:17 PM

Sigh, the last station I want to hear about on this thread is Fox.

It's a very ancient saying,
But a true and honest thought,
That if you become a teacher,
By your pupils you'll be taught.

Getting to know you.
Getting to know all about you.

Getting to know you,
Putting it my way,
But nicely

Em...see what happens when you talk about Fox? :cool: Now it's Sarah "definately not progressive" Palin (whether you like her or not, I think everyone would agree she's conservative and belongs on the other thread).

Haven't you noticed
Suddenly I'm bright and breezy?
Because of all the beautiful and new
Things I'm learning about you
Day by day.

Getting to know you,
Getting to feel free and easy
When I am with you,
Getting to know what to say

Getting to know you.
Getting to know all about you.

From 'The King and I' :cheesy::nuts::cool:

woops -- sorry didn't realize you were on the thread

phil

11-19-2009, 08:49 PM

Not dealing with intermittent sources: That part I can readily see. As I understand the law in certain areas, the electric companies are required to purchase electricity generated from non-fuel sources (or it used to be that way). What do the Europeans/Scandinavians use? I know they're building in more wind turbines than previously.

It IS old, but what's the answer? Is it now economically feasible to replace the entire grid? What are the long-term effects?

The problem with the grid in the U.S. is, it's old, and second, it was not built to deal with intermittent sources of power, such as wind and solar. Unfortunately, unlike oil, natural gas, or coal, we can't add reserves of sun and wind on demand. Also, the customer has no idea how much his electricity costs at different times - though personally I think this metering stuff can go overboard.

The current transmission method also has this darned tendency to go down in strong winds, and to get hit by falling trees.

phil

11-19-2009, 10:27 PM

Okay, I can understand ONCE, but to do it again within a week is just purely stupid. How dumb do they think the viewers are, not to notice? How many people really came? We'll never know the answer.

I'm not sure if I want that one answered. Are they an actual news service?

For the second time in just over a week (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/news/ynews/ts_ynews/storytext/ynews_ts988/34146306/*http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20091111/ts_ynews/ynews_ts977), Fox News is coming under fire (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/ts_ynews/storytext/ynews_ts988/34146306/SIG=11r1oi7p4/*http://thinkprogress.org/2009/11/18/fox-crowd-shot-palin/) for misusing old news footage. The latest flap is leading some people to charge (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/ts_ynews/storytext/ynews_ts988/34146306/SIG=12hjmrk4p/*http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-amato/i-filed-an-fcc-complaint_b_363180.html) that the cable news network is intentionally misleading its audience, while Fox claims a "production error."
Wednesday's incident occurred when Fox News host Gregg Jarrett mentioned that a Sarah Palin appearance and book signing in Grand Rapids, Michigan had a massive turnout. As footage rolled of a smiling and waving Palin amidst a throng of fans, Jarrett noted that the former Republican vice-presidential candidate is "continuing to draw huge crowds while she's promoting her brand-new book,'' adding that the images being shown were "some of the pictures just coming in to us.... The lines earlier had formed this morning."

tsptalk

11-19-2009, 10:57 PM

That ticket would appeal to a certain group of people.....the clinically insane and xenophobic. The average IQ of most Fox News viewers is probably sub-moronic. The New York Post is written on a 5th grade reading level......for good reason.
Easy phil. About 65% to 70% of our readers might take offense to that. Please watch the name calling. I'll inform both sides via an announcement.

phil

11-19-2009, 11:33 PM

Noted. But you might want to look at the other side of this equation. More importantly,

I never called anyone here any names.

In my mind, if you can dish it out, then why can't you take it?

James48843

11-19-2009, 11:47 PM

Easy phil. About 65% to 70% of our readers might take offense to that. ...

You are probably right- 65% to 70% might take offense.

Pew Research study showed average Fox News viewer had significantly less knowledge of world affairs than Colbert Show/Daily report viewers did:

7290

Details: http://people-press.org/report/319/public-knowledge-of-current-affairs-little-changed-by-news-and-information-revolutions

phil

11-20-2009, 02:08 AM

That's an interesting note, but I wonder why The Daily Show was only at 50%. That's pretty insulting.

You are probably right- 65% to 70% might take offense.

Pew Research study showed average Fox News viewer had significantly less knowledge of world affairs than Colbert Show/Daily report viewers did:

7290

Details: http://people-press.org/report/319/public-knowledge-of-current-affairs-little-changed-by-news-and-information-revolutions

Buster

11-20-2009, 03:27 AM

You are probably right- 65% to 70% might take offense.

Here's one for ya's

The fact that the South is FOX territory tends to confirm my own belief that the conflict between what are politically labeled conservatives and liberals is actually a culture clash between rural traditionalists and urban modernists. These two cultures are socialized differently and in fact even think differently.

Cable news networks have a level of influence that far exceeds their audience, since their actual audience is actually quite small. Most people simple don't watch cable news networks, but the ones that do are generally influentials.

Republicans watch Fox News and nothing else, Democrats split between MSNBC and CNN, and Independents watch nothing. MSNBC, in particular, depends on Democrats for the vast majority of its audience. One would think they'd realize this and get rid of Joe Scarborough to boost its morning ratings.

The South, unlike the rest of the country, appears to have their TV dials stuck on "FOX NEWS". Except for the youth, that is. 82 percent of 18-29-year-old respondents never watched FNC.

We then asked, "When it comes to accuracy and trustworthiness as a source of news would you say that [Media Org] is extremely reliable, reliable, unreliable, or extremely unreliable?"

Combining "extremely reliable" and "reliable", and "unreliable" and "extremely unreliable", Fox News clocked in at 35-41. Republicans (and the South) obviously think they're the word of god, while Democrats think it's crap.

CNN came in at 44-34. For Republicans, it was 20-61. They actually believe all that crap about the "Communist News Network". CNN garnered good numbers from Democrats (56-20) and Independents (48-30). Again, the South (28-53) was at odds with the rest of the country, which generally gave the network high marks for accuracy and trustworthiness.

As for MSNBC, Democrats gave it the highest marks (37-7), followed by Independents (24-16). Republicans, of course, think the network is crap -- 6-31. MSNBC was easily the least-recognized network of the bunch, with 60 percent of respondents unable to give an opinion. That "not sure" number was only 22 percent for CNN, and 24 percent for FNC.

http://politicsplusstuff.blogspot.com/2009/08/cable-news-networks-viewers-have.html

James48843

11-20-2009, 03:41 AM

Here ya go Phil- some reading material for you to consider:

http://www.tsptalk.com/mb/blog.php?b=241

The point is- whether you are on the right side of that chart, or the left side of that chart, we BOTH have to get along with each other, because we're here now, and we have to build the bridges into the future, build the systems and roadways that will carry us both ahead. THAT is what being "progressive" is all about. A rising tide to lift all the boats. Progressives believe in education. Progressives believe in helping people lift their circumstances in life.

Time to "progress" to a higher level of discussion. How do we help our fellow man?

phil

11-20-2009, 10:43 AM

Bias - I detect a certain amount of bias here. It appears that other members here can constantly resort to name calling, in my case, yet the administration does.....what? Nothing. Me, I'm a little tougher than the average person on this board, so I don't cry about it.

I also saw many postings decrying liberals, pro-Obama people and so forth. Again, I don't cry about it. So what? Life's tough. As Federal workers, we SHOULD be able to deal with life's tough situations. It's nothing I haven't dealt with on a day to day basis.

But the one time that I post something about Faux News viewers, suddenly there are screams.

Sure. I've always called for civility. But if you're going to dish it out, you better learn to take it.

Bias. It's a four letter word, but it works here.

James48843

11-20-2009, 10:47 AM

The fact that the audiences are small but consist of influentials suggests that watching cable news is something done by the more well-to-do upper class groups of people. The fact that the audiences are small confirms that the mass news media on cable TV has broken down into niche markets. So this is a report on an upper class (probably upper middle) consisting of influentials and it's also a report on which media outlets cater to the different categories in that class.

The fact that the South is FOX territory tends to confirm my own belief that the conflict between what are politically labelled conservatives and liberals is actually a culture clash between rural traditionalists and urban modernists. These two cultures are socialized differently and in fact even think differently.

It's clear from the political clashes between them that the two groups consider very different issues to be of greatest priority for America, and the way each group treats government is an outgrowth of those different ways of thinking and different priorities. I find it no surprise, for example, that the rural traditionalists are also exclusionists - thus the immigration issue, and the modernists support diversity.

Traditionalists are not fact based. They think in terms of what the traditional authorities tell them is true. They will not be swayed by facts, no matter how obvious. I'd suspect that FOX News has made themselves into one of those authorities, along with Church leaders and high level political authorities like the President. This latter is probably why putting a liberal Democrat 0r worse, an African American, into the position of President is considered the equivalent to lese majeste or worse. That's why electing Clinton over George H. W. Bush, a member of an old-line upper class family, was so emotionally upsetting to so many conservatives. Clinton's enemies had to redeem the Presidency from his presence.

No, I can't prove this, but it fits. It explains a pattern of facts that I have not seen otherwise adequately explained.

Addendum 9/30/2009
I stated above that traditionalists are not fact based, but that I cannot prove it. A group of researchers, however, describe what they call Motivated Reasoning (http://politicsplusstuff.blogspot.com/2009/09/those-crazy-right-wingers-cannot-be.html) which is exactly what I was talking about.

Traditionalists have an emotional need to be "right" and so they reject facts that show they are not. Motivated Reasoning describes how they go about rejecting those facts they find uncomfortable. But where do they get the mistaken ideas they consider "right?" FOX News and the other Murdoch propaganda outlets as well as such right-wing propaganda organizations as Regent University, Liberty University, the Discovery Institute, the Heritage Institute, the American Enterprise Institute, the CATO Institute and others.

http://politicsplusstuff.blogspot.com/2009/08/cable-news-networks-viewers-have.html

Yes, Buster, I'd say that pretty much sums it up. The writer calls is a culture clash between rural traditionalists and urban modernists.

It makes sense.

So, how do we change that?

Buster

11-20-2009, 01:33 PM

Yes, Buster, I'd say that pretty much sums it up. The writer calls is a culture clash between rural traditionalists and urban modernists.

It makes sense.

So, how do we change that?
Good question Jim...

I don't think the people on this MB are going to be able to CHANGE the Country, but as Tom pointed out in his 'MINOR' warning above, that we are all Gov employees and noted professionals in our jobs...Maybe we here at least can start by acting accordingly and quit pointing fingers of blame and try to find common ground for the good of this MB...The fact we have a differentiation between parties is carried over too much here. The Conservatives vs Liberals thinking here is an example that there is too much contrast and sustains the ill feelings between us...Name calling can be construed in many ways if not right out, but in ways that are sarcastic and demeaning...The El Supremeo, all knowing and I'm better than you because I spent my life reading liberal or conservative articles on the internet and I have been everywhere and done everything attitudes are not welcomed!!!!!!! (Get over your arrogant self)...Stick that holier than thou way of acting, in your ass...Metaphorically speaking.

If the rest of the Country wants to continue this "Them vs Us" rhetoric-- fine, but let us not fall into that form while cohabitating this MB.

Being guilty as well, but I intend on trying to get along better.

alevin

11-20-2009, 01:41 PM

Buster, that is one of the best philosophical commentaries I've ever seen from you. Well done.

James48843

11-20-2009, 01:43 PM

If the rest of the Country wants to continue this "Them vs Us" rhetoric-- fine, but let us not fall into that form while cohabitating this MB..

(Hee hee. Hee hee. He said "cohabitating". Hee hee.)

Birchtree

11-20-2009, 02:06 PM

James,

Some good definitions of progressive but if I read between the lines this is what I get. Progressive means a rising tide to lift all boats actually means we believe in multiculturalism. Multiculturalism is really an updated version of radical egalitarianism which seeks to eliminate all standards and aspirations in order to reduce everyone and everything to the same level. We don't want anyone to have poor selfesteem so we bring everyone down to a base level and no one can excell. Progressives believe in education as long as bussing is mandated to maintain racial parity in schools - that worked real well. Progressives believe in helping people lift their circumstances in life by providing affirmative action to step ahead of the more qualified - we all need a step up the ladder. I really appreciate my welfare check and my earned income tax credit. It's not my fault I got a six bedroom house with no down payment because standards were reduced - Barry will save me on my mortage. And believe me if you have something I don't you won't have it for long because I'm actually more deserving and if you don't give it to me I'll steal it from you.

Silverbird

11-20-2009, 02:09 PM

alevin

11-20-2009, 02:13 PM

Sitting here on the line between southern and northern VA, I think you are on to something, Buster. One of the main reasons the Democratic candidate for govenor (Deeds) lost is he is a rural southern VA Democrat. Otherwise known in this day as neither fish nor fowl.:blink:

Gosh, Silverbird, I think you just explained the influences that have shaped me from teen years, considering I grew up on the VA borderline too! :cool:

tsptalk

11-20-2009, 02:29 PM

Bias - I detect a certain amount of bias here. It appears that other members here can constantly resort to name calling, in my case, yet the administration does.....what? Nothing. Me, I'm a little tougher than the average person on this board, so I don't cry about it.
I sent you a PM on this Phil. I may have a political bias, but as far as the board goes, I think we are pretty fair. You can't say we do "nothing" to other members because you simply don't know what we are doing.

As I pointed out in the PM I sent, I probably should have addressed what I perceived as name calling in a PM before saying something on the board, and I apologized to you for that.

I think we're done with this subject. Back to the issues...

Silverbird

11-20-2009, 02:45 PM

Gosh, Silverbird, I think you just explained the influences that have shaped me from teen years, considering I grew up on the VA borderline too! I have to admit I did not grow up here at the borderline, I just couldn't afford a house inside the Beltway, I wanted a yard, and I like the neighborhood - it's more or less between Ft. Belvoir and Quantico, and there's a direct bus to DC for us Bureaucrats and another one to Pentagon. It's very safe around here with all the military families. :)

alevin

11-20-2009, 02:55 PM

I grew up just over the hill from Vint Hill-next road over. Gainesville. High School in Nokesville-only H.S. in the county with FFA program-we used to have fun with visiting track teams from city schools like Stonewall Jackson-they were not used to smelling cows and silage. :laugh: We could hear the guns from Quantico when they were practicing.

Viva La Migra

11-20-2009, 03:03 PM

I think the basic grid is pretty good in North America, though more capacity is needed. We shunt power across the Canadian grid every day. It goes back and forth along the whole grid, delivering during peak periods of time. Really I think nuclear is the way to go. Ground water contamination threats are usually pretty low level with the new reactors.

One major goal would be to get rid of our oil dependence. I think that's doable up to a certain level. Even if synthetic fuels are a little dirty, if
it's economically feasible, I think we should go ahead with a larger synfuel plant.
I've tried not to post in this thread, because I don't consider myself a "progressive." The post I have quoted from Phil, though, caused me to do a double take. For decades Progressives have fought new nuclear power plants and now Phil, who I find to be one of the farthest left leaning people I have met on this board, has just advocated more nuclear power plants. I am shocked and pleasantly surprised. Way to go Phil!

Are you willing to say that conservatives were right on nuclear power?

On the fuel front, I would like to see more algae biofuel plants developed. California really has great potential for algal biofuel given the climate. The plants could be placed near coal or natural gas power plants, where they can take CO2 from the exhaust of those power plants to "feed" the algae and encourage more rapid growth. The lack of harsh winters and consistent sunshine would also encourage algal growth. It's a win win if they can get it to work.

James48843

11-20-2009, 03:15 PM

Viva, the problem with Nuclear ISN'T the power that is produced-

It's with "What do you do with the waste afterwards?".

Nuclear is a great alternative to coal, oil, or even gas, but the end product ends up, with current technology, being a radioactive waste pile for the next 10,000 years. I think the vast majority of "progressives" strongly support Nuclear energy- IF we have a solution to what to do with Nuclear waste.

Yucca Mountain was supposed to be the long-term fix. So far, it hasn't proven to be that.

Rebreeding reactors were supposed to solve the problem, by reusing it over and over and over. But we don't have the technology.

So, in short- yes. Lots of progressives see Nuclear is a major portion to the energy solution (me included) IF we fix the one remaining problem- what to do with the waste.

Nuclear will be a part. Wind will be a part. Solar will be a part. Algae will be a part. Corn ethanol will be a part. And yes, oil shale, which has it's own terrible problem as well- oil shale uses 65 gallons of water to extract one gallon of oil, which is then procesed into about a quart of gasoline...will be a part. Each solution is a part- and each solution brings it's own unique challenges to overcome.

We need to find the best solutions, and then fix each one's drawbacks with the best technological solutions we can find. THAT is part of being "progressive".

Minnow

11-20-2009, 03:16 PM

I've tried not to post in this thread, because I don't consider myself a "progressive." The post I have quoted from Phil, though, caused me to do a double take. For decades Progressives have fought new nuclear power plants and now Phil, who I find to be one of the farthest left leaning people I have met on this board, has just advocated more nuclear power plants. I am shocked and pleasantly surprised. Way to go Phil!

Are you willing to say that conservatives were right on nuclear power?

On the fuel front, I would like to see more algae biofuel plants developed. California really has great potential for algal biofuel given the climate. The plants could be placed near coal or natural gas power plants, where they can take CO2 from the exhaust of those power plants to "feed" the algae and encourage more rapid growth. The lack of harsh winters and consistent sunshine would also encourage algal growth. It's a win win if they can get it to work.

Yeah, I don't consider myself progressive much either, but I like the nuclear thing. i think what killed that was the DOE under Carter and the financing structure that was modified for the construction of these big money projects.

sidebar: not trying to come down on anyone left or right or start a discussion disparaging Jimmy Carter so, don't get the wrong idea here. I'm a bottom line type of guy and placing blame this late in the game serves no good -- just look at how the financing is for these nuclear projects and you'll understand why venture capitalists don't want to get involved.

way back when, all nuclear plants were custom jobs. nowadays they can be more cookie cutter assembly line type deals that could come on line quicker if they would change the "cost-plus" (I may be wrong on this term so apologies if I got it wrong) financing and go to more private investment friendly practices.

now figure out a way to power buffett's railways with this and we're talkin' progress... and a little energy independence.

like i said, not a left or right thing... just a bottom line, common sense thing. free up some financing deals for some actual progress.

Silverbird

11-20-2009, 03:21 PM

There were supposed to be *two* nuclear waste repositories, one on the East Coast, and the other on the West. Most of the nuclear plants currently in use (and collecting their rods literally in huge "swimming pools") are on the East Coast. The idea of transporting all the waste to Nevada is a logistical and security nightmare. Personally, until a viable solution to the waste storage problem is reached, I don't want any more nuclear plants here because if that's not decided on we will still be in the "swimming pool" holding mode.

I posted this nearly a year ago, unfortunately the situation is still the same.

"....In the 1980s when Congress ordered the Energy Department to look for places to bury long-lived radioactive wastes, it visualized two underground repositories — one in the West and one in the East — to spread the burden fairly. Congress eventually chose one site in Nevada, which lacked the political clout at the time to push it elsewhere.

The only concession to Nevada was that no more than 70,000 metric tons could be stored at Yucca Mountain until a second repository was in operation. The amount of spent reactor fuel and military waste now stored at production sites and waiting for permanent disposal is expected to reach that limit by 2010..."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/20/opinion/20sat2.html

Minnow

11-20-2009, 03:22 PM

Viva, the problem with Nuclear ISN'T the power that is produced-

It's with "What do you do with the waste afterwards?".

NASA: the garbage men of the 21st century. What's the payload of a typical rocket (with a good track record of not blowing up in the atmosphere) the space program has sitting around collecting dust? What's the typical weight in nuclear waste of your average plant?

--- I might be too high on donuts right now :D

James48843

11-20-2009, 03:28 PM

NASA: the garbage men of the 21st century. What's the payload of a typical rocket (with a good track record of not blowing up in the atmosphere) the space program has sitting around collecting dust? What's the typical weight in nuclear waste of your average plant?

--- I might be too high on donuts right now :D

Ummm... Rocket misfires on the way up, falls back to earth and breaks apart in the atmosphere, spreading dust over hundreds of miles. (remember the space shuttle breakup over Texas???)

Weight? tens of thousands of tons of fuel rods.

Lifting capacity to take it OUT of orbit? Nil.

Just putting it in orbit won't solve anything. You'd have to rocket it into the Sun if you wanted to, and that could prove both extrememly costly, and risky if it failed.

Sorry.

Next solution proposal?

Buster

11-20-2009, 03:38 PM

James48843

11-20-2009, 05:21 PM

By the way, there is currently 77,000 TONS of radioactive waste stored around the nation in pools of water, waiting to be moved to somewhere where they can be disposed of.

Here is the latest on Yucca Mountain- a project that is dead, as far as the current administration is concerned, thanks in large part by Senator Harry Reid --Nevada, in the NIMBY fight against Yucca Mountain.

http://www.reuters.com/article/mnEnergy/idUS248398660520091117

Silverbird

11-20-2009, 05:40 PM

alevin

11-20-2009, 05:49 PM

Years ago, there was a state voter initiative to close the low-level industrial storage facility on the 100-year floodplain of a major river system in a major ag production and high-population area of a certain state. The hangup was where to move all that "stuff" too? I don't recall what ever happened from that point, I moved out of the area, never was able to follow the rest of the story.

Viva La Migra

11-20-2009, 06:13 PM

Ummm... Rocket misfires on the way up, falls back to earth and breaks apart in the atmosphere, spreading dust over hundreds of miles. (remember the space shuttle breakup over Texas???)

Weight? tens of thousands of tons of fuel rods.

Lifting capacity to take it OUT of orbit? Nil.

Just putting it in orbit won't solve anything. You'd have to rocket it into the Sun if you wanted to, and that could prove both extrememly costly, and risky if it failed.

Sorry.

Next solution proposal?
I don't think this idea is unfeasable. It's risky, to be sure, but it's not unfeasable. Given the above ground nuclear testing that has been done over the years, I don't think it would be THAT harmful if a rocket crashed and burned after liftoff. And remember, the shuttle that blew up over Texas did so on re-entry. It was the Challenger that blew up on take off, and the issue that caused that accident was fixed.

The Space Shuttle is being decommissioned soon. How about we retrofit it so that it can be controlled remotely and have them send up "satellites" that can be sent on a collision course with the sun? It wouldn't take that much more fuel to set it on course, though you might need some to make course adjustments. I think we don't do this, because we are afraid the "Greys" will get a hold of our spent nuclear rods and retool them for their own evil purposes!:D

The better idea is to recycle the spent rods so they can be used again. The technology isn't there, I think, because the environmentalist movement is against nuclear energy and have been successful in lobbying against anything having to do with nuclear energy.

Viva La Migra

11-20-2009, 06:17 PM

The space shuttle could handle about 4 tons per liftoff. The Saturn V could handle over 50 tons per liftoff. This would take a lot of rockets, but I still think it is feasable. I also see this like the oil drilling argument. Some folks don't want to start the project, because it will take too long and is risky. It only gets worse as time goes on.

Viva La Migra

11-20-2009, 06:32 PM

Just shoot that Nuclear waste off into space, directly at The SUN if it's such a big problem. I'm sure the SUN wouldn't mind at all.:laugh: Logistics, logistics!!
7304
US government doesn't want aliens getting a hold of our nuclear material.

Beware of the Greys!
7305

James48843

11-20-2009, 06:35 PM

The space shuttle could handle about 2,000 to 3,000 tons per liftoff. It would take about 25 to 30 trips to get rid of all of the spent nuclear rods in the U.S.

Space Shuttle cargo capacity to GTO (Geostationary Transit Orbit) = 8,390 lbs.

That's just to get it high enough to transfer it into a different vehicle, prior to sending THAT vehicle on it's way to the Sun.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle

That would mean, to lift 77,000 tons (77,000 X 2,000 pounds) into earth orbit aboard the space shuttle to a height where geosyncranois transfer is possible, it would take 18, 366 shuttle trips just to carry the radioactice waste.

Since the rate at which Shuttles "blow up" has been 2 in 128, we could calculate that of the 18,366 lift attempts, we would lose 287 Space Shuttles in the attempt.

Provided that we could actually BUILD 287 space shuttles (remember, this is just for the radioactive waste, NOT for taking up whatever craft is going to then carry it to the Sun), it would cost a hefty sum just to operate that lift.

Each shuttle mission costs on average, $1.5 BILLION dollars for each mission. Remember, these are low-earth orbit missions, not radioactive lift missions, so let's call it a flat rate $2.0 billion each for that mission.

$2 billion times 18, 366 shuttle trips is $ 36,732,000,000,000.

$36 TRILLION dollars, to lift the EXISTING 77,000 tons into orbit high enough to transfer it into something to send it into the Sun.

And then you'd need to build a cargo carrier in space large enough to hold 77,000 tons of waste, and ship it to the sun. And you'd have to cost out the cost of building that ship.

Nope. I just don't think it's practical. Progressives have to be practical too.

Next suggestion?

Viva La Migra

11-20-2009, 06:41 PM

Space Shuttle cargo capacity to GTO (Geostationary Transit Orbit) = 8,390 lbs.

That's just to get it high enough to transfer it into a different vehicle, prior to sending THAT vehicle on it's way to the Sun.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle

That would mean, to lift 77,000 tons (77,000 X 2,000 pounds) into earth orbit aboard the space shuttle to a height where geosyncranois transfer is possible, it would take 18, 366 shuttle trips just to carry the radioactice waste.

Since the rate at which Shuttles "blow up" has been 2 in 128, we could calculate that of the 18,366 lift attempts, we would lose 287 Space Shuttles in the attempt.

Provided that we could actually BUILD 287 space shuttles (remember, this is just for the radioactive waste, NOT for taking up whatever craft is going to then carry it to the Sun), it would cost a heft sum just to operate that lift.

Each shuttle mission costs on average, $1.5 BILLION dollars for each mission. remember, these are low-earth orbit missions, not radioactive lift missions, so let's call it a flat rate $2.0 billion each for that mission.

$2 billion times 18, 366 shuttle trips is
$ 36,732,000,000,000.

$36 TRILLION dollars, to lift the EXISTING 77,000 tons into orbit high enough to transfer it into something to send it into the Sun.

And then you'd need to build a cargo carrier in space large enough to hold 77,000 tons of waste, and ship it to the sun. And you'd have to cost out the cost of building that ship.

Nope. I just don't think it's practical.

Next suggestion?
I made some major miscalculations, which is why I edited my post. Only one of the space shuttles exploded on take off, so your numbers are a little skewed as well.

So...how much will it cost to operate a secure nuclear waste storage facility for the next 10,000 years?

Minnow

11-20-2009, 06:50 PM

Nope. I just don't think it's practical. Progressives have to be practical too.

Next suggestion?

I'm still not sold on the idea of being a Progressive. Kinda hurts my splien. But I'm liking this discussion. That space thing I just kinda shot from the hip... I come back and pow -- you guys are all on it. I googled it ... I ain't the first to think it. And here I thought I had an original thought. 'Tis what I get for thinking.

OK... how 'bout this. What Buster said about the glass caves in NM is pretty accurate but I think the aquifers (read water supply) in NM are both abundant and close but these are some way out of the way places ... not much there -- trust me! I used to have to drive through every bumbleweed town in NM..... blyuck! (not all of NM is crap... just some).

How 'bout we suck it up as a country and use that and Yucca Mountain (been near there too... not much at all around there) and just pull the darn band aid off already. Suck it up and dive headlong into recycling research as well. Testing the groundwater for miles out from the facilities goes without saying.

Funny how the big oil lobbying groups will throw down on nuclear at the drop of a hat but when it comes to fossil fuel waste, that is our "friend" and "not such a problem as nuclear."

Minnow

11-20-2009, 07:12 PM

So...how much will it cost to operate a secure nuclear waste storage facility for the next 10,000 years?

You do realize James is gonna come up with a figure, don't you?

James48843

11-20-2009, 07:23 PM

So...how much will it cost to operate a secure nuclear waste storage facility for the next 10,000 years?

You want it wrapped up in paper, or plastic?

Steadygain

11-20-2009, 07:28 PM

About 65% to 70% of our readers might take offense to that. Please watch the name calling. I'll inform both sides via an announcement.

Tom,
We've got a lot of great people on this site -- but you take the cake.

Next solution proposal?
The problem presently facing our civilization is way more the Nuclear THREAT than what to do with the Nuclear Waste.

We (as least scientists I know personally) have already been able to hugely reduce 'nuclear waste' and that part is getting increasingly better. So please know that compared to 20 or 30 years ago we are in totally different -- and far advanced place.

RESEARCH PROJECT - I was assigned was to elaborate on the Nuclear Capicity of the U.S.A. and Russia. Determine all types of missiles and fully describe the details of what would happen if 'one bomb' would hit New York City.

Everything -- and I promise I mean every little particle of any building or any structure would be distroyed. All of New York City and the surrounding area would be turned into a 'radioactive desert' with no trace of life. Everything would vanish.

The main problem we face -- is the increasing production of Nuclear Weapons in the face of deepening fractures in our civilization and society. Someday - it's going to happen if things don't change. But we DO NOT have the capacity to change... the problems only deepen as time goes on.

Solution - find your confidence and life in something greater than the human race and let that be your everything.

James48843

11-20-2009, 07:33 PM

Hee, HEE, LOL, LOL!!!! How abot those LOGISTICS?:D 7307 7308

Yep. Everything is logistics. S-4.

Looks like a Yucca Mountain solution is right around $100 billion, above what we've already got invested in it.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1A1-D92CCFQ80.html

Put it in glass in the desert, and you have to start all over from where you are now, start studies, and figure out how you want to do it, before you can calculate the logistics.

But hey- we got time. That waste isn't going anywhere, you know. It will still be here when we figure out what to do with it, even if it takes until a few generations from now, it will still be sitting there waiting.....

phil

11-20-2009, 07:34 PM

Yes, I'm pro-nuclear. I think it's cheap and economical. Anything to get us off oil.

Right now, the US and the rest of the world uses a variety of storage methods that work fairly well. Salt domes, far away from the water table seem to be working fine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_geological_repository

By the way, the Soviets were some of the great pioneers on discovering the effects of nuclear waste/health physics. They began their crash program after Hiroshima to quickly build an atomic bomb, but they caused a lot of nuclear waste to be dumped into the water table when they did it. The Techa river problem was the direct result of trying to develop too quickly. That, and Chernobyl really put their program on hold.

Exploitable Uranium supplies also pose some more short-term challenges. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the world's economically exploitable Uranium reserves are likely to last between 35 and 63 years, depending on whether demand is such as to justify the higher cost of mining less easily exploitable reserves.
Still, in consideration of the power that can be generated by Uranium and the burgeoning global energy demands, many governments are placing more emphasis on nuclear energy. The largest user of nuclear energy is the United States, followed by France, Japan, Germany and the Russian Federation (Source: Energy Information Agency). In the US alone, the nation's 103 nuclear power plants each generate an average of around 20 tons of radioactive spent fuel a year. Spent fuel now sits in cooling pools and temporary storage areas waiting for somebody to figure out what to do with it.

http://www.damninteresting.com/in-soviet-russia-lake-contaminates-you

These days, there's enormous interest in India about nuclear power, particularly after the US-India civilian nuclear treaty. There are a lot of details still left, but it's a good idea to get nations to sign on.

Here's what's more disturbing: only four nations have not signed on to Nuclear Non-proliferation (bombs folks!): India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea. So, they don't have to stop making bombs for other people. Also, India, Pakistan and North Korea have not yet signed the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. That's disturbing.

James48843

11-20-2009, 07:38 PM

I think I could come up with better ideas than that. Use it for peaceful purposes, if you want a problem to solve think of other uses for this radioactive stuff!!!! Brain Warp, Brain Warp!!

Well, we could turn it into watches, and them sell them to China for cheap.......

http://l.yimg.com/i/i/uk/pr/watch.jpg

Minnow

11-20-2009, 07:41 PM

Minnow,

If you got kids in school you'll enjoy becoming a liberal progressive - the kids will get good grades and not have to learn anything. How great is that - everyone feels good and dumb at the same time.

I got three in school and one more will be there in a few years. Don't get me started. I read your story in another thread about bussing and the teacher (I'm guessing that was Buzz in her younger days)... I got a couple of my own that deal with grade school and teaching kids their multiplication tables. And our school district is considered one of the better ones in FL and I love it but geez... just frustrated. I know taking a real role in my kids academics will make a difference (hopefully).

I don't think I can be a progressive... but they are cool to talk to... nothing wrong with the exchange of ideas.

Steadygain

11-20-2009, 07:47 PM

Yes, I'm pro-nuclear. I think it's cheap and economical. Anything to get us off oil.

Right now, the US and the rest of the world uses a variety of storage methods that work fairly well. Salt domes, far away from the water table seem to be working fine.

Absolutely !! Much cleaner than Coal and would very much reduce our dependency on other sources making life worse.

I guess that concludes this argument !! ;)

On this -- you're right!!

DAWG51

11-20-2009, 08:53 PM

Progressive Use of the Stimulus Money For All Welfare Recipients

Offer every mother $2000 cash to have a Tubal Ligation while she is on the delivery table. Sweeten the pot by offering the father an additional $2000 cash to have a Vasectomy at the same time she is having her tubes tied.

The cost savings would grow from generation to generation and savings would be evident in other programs such as food stamps, housing assistance, drug rehabilitation, medicare, law enforcement cost, homeless shelters, etc……

Silverbird

11-20-2009, 09:05 PM

Dawg
Ok...I guess it can it be done after the 4th child? What's wrong with the dad getting it done and not the mom? Plus, it may only fix the "mom" problem, the dads usually don't show up if you are talking about unmarried and unwanted. I really don't see where this wouldn't simply become big perk for married couples who decide they don't want any more kids.

Birch, I think there are plenty of criminal elements already in the U.S. to keep law enforcement busy.

What happened to the discussion on nuclear power, kthanks.

Viva La Migra

11-20-2009, 09:10 PM

You do realize James is gonna come up with a figure, don't you?
Sure, but he'll need to factor in the rate of growth in nuclear waste over that period times the number of facilities that will be needed. We're already over capacity in the Nevada facility, so more facilities need to be built and the cost of those facilities will need to be factored in as well.

If we just left what has already been produced in Nevada and sent future nuclear waste out to the sun, it could be done. Using Phil's estimate of 20 tons of nuclear waste created each year, we could send one Saturn V rocket each year with the previous year's nuclear waste on board on a collision course to the sun and we'd eliminate the need for more storage facilities. Given the payload capacity of the Saturn V, we could probably add some nuclear waste from the Nevada facility and reduce the amount of nuclear waste in storage over time. Do this until we develop the technology to recycle the nuclear waste. I think it's a viable option.

Silverbird

11-20-2009, 09:17 PM

Yikes...plant closes, lose your job, get...no Phil.

ON the OTHER subject: Clean coal is a crock right? Has anyone seen anything viable for sequestering (not a theory)? Is there a "clean" way to extract it? I know we have lots of reserves.

How do people feel about natural gas?

Minnow

11-20-2009, 09:20 PM

Sure, but he'll need to factor in the rate of growth in nuclear waste over that period times the number of facilities that will be needed. We're already over capacity in the Nevada facility, so more facilities need to be built and the cost of those facilities will need to be factored in as well.

If we just left what has already been produced in Nevada and sent future nuclear waste out to the sun, it could be done. Using Phil's estimate of 20 tons of nuclear waste created each year, we could send one Saturn V rocket each year with the previous year's nuclear waste on board on a collision course to the sun and we'd eliminate the need for more storage facilities. Given the payload capacity of the Saturn V, we could probably add some nuclear waste from the Nevada facility and reduce the amount of nuclear waste in storage over time. Do this until we develop the technology to recycle the nuclear waste. I think it's a viable option.

I read a little about the fast breeder reactors... they seem to be a good theory right now. More efficient and better power producers. I'll see if I can't find a good link or two soon.

note: the term fast breeder is in no way related to the second discussion going on here in the progressive place.

Viva La Migra

11-20-2009, 10:37 PM

You want it wrapped up in paper, or plastic?
Decisions, decisions...paper kills trees, but plastic gets into the oceans and sea turtles think it's food and die after eating it.

OH THE HUMANITY!!!

Buster

11-20-2009, 11:07 PM

T What we need is for the churches to get involved and start preaching a little shame.
I'm impressed Birch..nicely said.http://www.hummeraddicts.com/Smileys/Lots_O_Smileys/thumbsup.gif

PessOptimist

11-21-2009, 12:06 AM

Some random thoughts on this thread.

It's called "Progressive Place".

As Tom defined progressive:
"1. A person with liberal political opinions: liberal, liberalist
2. Ahead of current trends or customs: advanced, forward, precocious"
James may have had #1 in mind when he started it, if so why not just call it :"Liberals Only Please"?
If he had #2 in mind, there is nothing here that fits except maybe precocious.

Phil wrote: Interesting quote. Progressive space is used for progressive ideas. I'm really unsure as to how any of your ideas are progressive by any stretch of the imagination. About reinforcing "existing" opinions as opposed to "new" opinions, there's really nothing new that I don't see posted all over this site already.
Right on Phil, there is nothing new here. Just the same old rhetoric recycled endlessly, by you and everyone else. I sure hope I did that quote correctly and have made no grammatical or spelling errors.:D

James wrote: Thanks Lady- that's a good idea- let's get back on track.

Progressive ideas.

How do we work together to make America a better place for all?

Good try James but I think you should just rename it and try again.

Now, about that power grid...

Steadygain

11-21-2009, 12:39 AM

Right on Phil, there is nothing new here. Just the same old rhetoric recycled endlessly, by you and everyone else.

Interesting observation ;)

Surely you could say the exact same thing about every other thread and essentially every other post.

Nothing is new -- we are constantly recycling the same information endlessly --

whether that be any aspect of the Markets or Economy

whether it remotely relates to Politics

world events in any type of manner or anything else

Hmmm -- what subject could we possibly talk about that all of us aren't vaguely familiar with?? What ideas could any of us share that are not to some degree capable of general understanding -- that others are not able to discuss or interact with.

Perhaps we have no other choice --

I'd say it's simply destinity -- the way things have to be and there is no way around it.

BUT -- this Thread Alone -- has been moving forward in ways that set it apart -- with revelutionary ideas that are shaping and changing our world and almost everyone who has read this thread has been converted in one way or another to a new and improved belief system and has transcended to greater understanding.

PessOptimist

11-21-2009, 01:32 AM

Ever the fixer, Steady. I somehow fail to see where hinting that someone may be gay (like that's bad?) or have a low IQ if they watch a certain news channel is progressive or moving forward in any way.

PessOptimist

11-21-2009, 03:12 AM

Not to be confused with the subject of how the power is generated and the environmental problems attached.
Our aging electricity transmission system needs to be updated and expanded. Demand for electricity is still going up, current infrastructure can't carry all that is currently available during peak production periods, at least in the NW. Fortunately increased transmission capacity is in the works across the NW, east-west, at least 2 lines that I know of-main question at the moment is siting (on-the-ground placement) among several different routes the new lines could take. Don't know how fast the decisions will be made but the public is being given opportunity to provide feedback as we speak.
Production in the NW is hydro, coal (western low-sulfur) and wind for the most part. Used to have nuclear. Could again if they could improve location (groundwater and soil contamination and flood vulnerability issues) including low-level waste storage.

I think the basic grid is pretty good in North America, though more capacity is needed. We shunt power across the Canadian grid every day. It goes back and forth along the whole grid, delivering during peak periods of time. Really I think nuclear is the way to go. Ground water contamination threats are usually pretty low level with the new reactors.
One major goal would be to get rid of our oil dependence. I think that's doable up to a certain level. Even if synthetic fuels are a little dirty, if it's economically feasible, I think we should go ahead with a larger synfuel plant.

The problem with the grid in the U.S. is, it's old, and second, it was not built to deal with intermittent sources of power, such as wind and solar. Unfortunately, unlike oil, natural gas, or coal, we can't add reserves of sun and wind on demand. Also, the customer has no idea how much his electricity costs at different times - though personally I
think this metering stuff can go overboard. The current transmission method also has this darned tendency to go down in strong winds,
and to get hit by falling trees.

Fear not. Smart grid is going to fix everything.
See http://www.oe.energy.gov/SmartGridIntroduction.htm
I say that tounge in cheek.:D I have not gotten through the entire site but when I ask at work how this is going to apply to the day to day operations that I deal with I am referred to the web site and given other buzz phrases. No answer yet. But the point is that it is being worked on. All of you are right with your comments about "the grid", to one degree or another. It is aging, needs to be expanded, is pretty good in North America (we have elecrticity available most of the time), it is hard to deal with fluctuating sources like wind and to some extent solar and it has vulnerabilities.

It is not as simple as "fixing the grid". Our power system is broken down in to four parts. Generation, transmission, distribution and marketing/scheduling. Marketing is not a "physical" part but controls everything. The generation and transmission part is pretty "smart" now. The distribution part is dumb as a box of rocks. I'm getting pretty long here. Off the "progressive place" subject somewhat too. The "grid" does need attention and expansion. Expansion is made more difficult by the "NIMBY" crowd.

Show-me

11-21-2009, 12:52 PM

Not to be confused with the subject of how the power is generated and the environmental problems attached.

Lots of truth to this, no matter how power is generated there is a environmental problem attached.

phil

11-21-2009, 04:40 PM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/UnitedStatesPowerGrid.jpg/350px-UnitedStatesPowerGrid.jpg (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/File:UnitedStatesPowerGrid.jpg)

Our grid is 300,000 km of lines with each state having one or more electricity suppliers, over 300 companies.

We're nowhere near the EU for wind generated power. Even tiny Germany uses much more windpower than we do, yet our potential is much greater. There are tradeoffs, but the larger the grid you have, the more efficient it can become, particuarly with wind and solar sources.

I'm almost willing to create a government monopoly. It's probably better than having each state company establish fair cost for power. I know how they've operated in the past.

Buster

11-21-2009, 05:30 PM

How would y'all like this guy's job...?:nuts:

Z3q9WdjD5wc

PessOptimist

11-21-2009, 06:42 PM

Yeah, those guys and gals are a special breed. When you saw those arcs when the linesperson "hooked up" to the line, the linesperson was raising his/her body's potential to the voltage of the line, probably 345 or 500kV. As long as he/she doesn't touch a grounded part, all is well.

Sure wish I could find a gender neutral pronoun:laugh:

Buster

11-21-2009, 08:20 PM

Why are you trying to be Politically Correct?..It was a GUY and HE did narrate it..I think you're safe on this one..;)

Curious though..In light of PCness, What would you call a 'Manhole Cover'?

:D:D

PessOptimist

11-21-2009, 08:35 PM

Utility Access Portal.

And I was being PC cause I know a few female lines-persons and would not want them mad at me.:D

Buster

11-21-2009, 10:28 PM

Utility Access Portal.

And I was being PC cause I know a few female lines-persons and would not want them mad at me.:D
Aaah, roger that..especially if they're charged up:D

wwwtractor

11-22-2009, 06:39 PM

The Southern Company built a clean coal plant in Wilsonville, Al. It was called solvent refined coal. I toured it once as I worked for the Southern Company for 20 years. They did some research in the area of coal refining.

http://www.google.com/search?q=solvent+refined+coal

phil

11-22-2009, 06:41 PM

I think it's great that the local schools are offering this highly liberal curriculum of the International Baccalaureate to their students, and they couldn't have picked a better location for doing it.

The IB program curriculum is extremely liberal/progressive and incorporates a lot of progressive ideas, including some public service for the community. My son graduated with the IB certificate, but I wish that he'd done a lot more to help in the community.

By the way, the IB is administered from Europe, not the US, but I am happy that it's offered as a choice to students, as opposed to just taking the AP classes.

From Wikipedia:
The IB is a non-governmental organization (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Non-governmental_organization) (NGO) of UNESCO and has collaborative relationships with the Council of Europe (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Council_of_Europe) and the Organisation Internationale de la Francophonie (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Organisation_Internationale_de_la_Francophonie) (OIF).The IB's alliance with UNESCO encourages the integration of its educational goals into the IB curriculum

James48843

11-23-2009, 04:34 AM

The other downside of Nuclear: contamination at the Uranium source.

The oil companies ask us to trust them that their tar sand and oil shale extraction won't have unintended consequences. Then this story comes out about a BP-owned mine releasing uranium at up to 100 times the legal level into drinking water supply wells... There was also a story a few weeks back similarly about someone on the East Coast suing due to their wells being polluted from natural gas fracking.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091121/ap_on_re_us/us_uranium_mystery

"They say they have been met by a stone wall from state regulators, local politicians and the huge oil company that inherited the toxic site — British Petroleum. Those interests have insisted uranium naturally occurs in the region's soil and there's no way to prove that a half-century of processing metals at the former Anaconda pit mine is responsible for the contamination.

That has changed. A new wave of testing by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has found that 79 percent of the wells tested north of the World War II-era copper mine have dangerous levels of uranium or arsenic or both that make the water unsafe to drink."

Hmmm...

No perfect solutions. I'm glad I don't live near a Uranium mine.

Steadygain

11-23-2009, 02:27 PM

It's called "Progressive Place".

Right on Phil, there is nothing new here. Just the same old rhetoric recycled endlessly, by you and everyone else.

James but I think you should just rename it and try again.

PessOptimist,
First I think it's essential to let you know that there is nothing you could say that would make me stop loving you or caring about you.

I do love you; and time is way too short to waste on trivial and insignificant things.

If my previous post bothered you ~~ it's simply because there was a misunderstanding.

I think that NOW -- all the more -- I should live everyday as though it's my last.

I thought you were saying that everyone who contributed in any manner to this thread 'had nothing new here to share. Just the same old rhetoric recycled endlessly, by you and everyone else.'

To me -- many of the people who posted are incredibly insightful and I believe they represent 'a Progressive Change'

So my previous response was for their benefit -- because I love them and admire the 'better change' they are trying to represent. I simply responded to your 'argument' by trying to make you realize that it's an argument that could be applied to every other thread and every other post (as least as I understood it).

Ever the fixer, Steady.

When you challenge all the people who posted on this thread, is it unacceptable for me to respond?

Did I say something to anger you in my response?

If you (or anyone) are seeking 'Progress' ~~ would that not have to involve 'Internal changes within your own life' that promote greater undertstanding and harmony with others?

I somehow fail to see where hinting that someone may be gay (like that's bad?)

I can only speak for myself on this matter and if I (or anyone else) offended you because you're gay then I'm sorry.

http://www.tsptalk.com/mb/showpost.php?p=222589&postcount=1

I've already gone over my view of the gay at length. For me the 'internal change' was wholly the result of researching into the Ojibway Indians or 'Chippewa Indians' and learning their customs and beliefs in the deepest posssible manner. As a result I came to realize that they were the most superior civilization I could imagine -- in the way they regarded our Planet, the way they regarded and understood all LIFE -- and the way they made music and harmony with everything a central feature of their existence.

That was my 'awakening moment' when I came to realize that others that think and believe differently than me -- equally needed to be accepted for who and what they are.

or have a low IQ if they watch a certain news channel is progressive or moving forward in any way.

http://www.tsptalk.com/mb/showpost.php?p=222604&postcount=5

Here is what I shared:

I grew up in an environment where the gay were despised.

So perhaps the best question is - as an individual do we promote humanity (and the future of humanity) - by holding to such rigid and dogmatic convictions - that we refuse to even remotely accept someone else who may deviate from our own beliefs; or would humanity honestly be better off if we tried to break from our deep grounding and strived to accept others for who they are.

In general - as an across the board thought - that is striving to be free of prejudicism and insisting on 'our way as the only way' I would say humanity is better off striving for love and acceptance.

This is 'my view' PessOptimist - and I am convinced the striving for love and acceptance -- and the endeavor to free ourselves of prejudicism is a 'Progresive Way'

The low IQ with a certain channel on TV was likely only one person's comment and my guess is that comment was meant to reflect the huge extent that some news channel would go through to undermine the President and do everything possible to attack him and insite huge criticism against him -- all for the sake of 'ratings'.

But I don't know ~~ and honestly none of it makes any difference to me. Life is too short to waste on things like that; so I look for the good and hold onto the better things.

Well anyway - I hope you can see I meant no conflict with you and I hope you well.

phil

11-23-2009, 11:30 PM

Adding troops to Afghanistan: The current administration has already added in 30,000 new troops. Now, it turns out we need another 40,000 new troops in addition to the ones already there.

My question is: the war had already been going on for 7 years before anyone noticed?

What actually happened: the Iraq war absorbed a tremendous amount of our resources. We ended up worse off than we've ever been, and the Afghan war was made into a sideshow.

Why is it that NOW the war has become a priority? Were we ignoring the issue all that time?

phil

11-24-2009, 01:02 AM

I just read that Gov. Sanford has been charged with 37 different ethics violatons.

It's about time.

There's also Senator Ensign's ethical violations. I guess when your parents are casino moguls, life couldn't be sweeter.

phil

11-24-2009, 04:34 AM

Try looking at the post where that came from. It might offer you a little enlightenment, if you believe that sort of thing.
The problem is....people who want to dish it out can't seem to take it without crying. Me? I guess I'm just a little tougher than that. You won't see me whining.

Some random thoughts on this thread.

Phil wrote:
Right on Phil, there is nothing new here. Just the same old rhetoric recycled endlessly, by you and everyone else. I sure hope I did that quote correctly and have made no grammatical or spelling errors.:D

James48843

11-24-2009, 05:26 AM

BREAK TIME
Monty Python

vZ9myHhpS9s

Double Feature

Hh_shsRfXqk

phil

11-24-2009, 07:50 PM

Monty Python. How I remember them. They're still funny.

sugarandspice

11-24-2009, 07:55 PM

Curious though..In light of PCness, What would you call a 'Manhole Cover'?
:D:D

A condom.

Buster

11-24-2009, 08:19 PM

A condom.

LMAO!!..Excellent sugar:D:D

Steadygain

11-24-2009, 08:54 PM

A condom.

What a thrill to see you back ;)

Sugar --- please overlook most of my posts today and know I'm not some radical lunitic that's recently been converted and ready to do a bunch of crazy stuff....:cheesy::)

But sometimes it's really hard to resist -- pushing a few buttons and bringing out 'an alternative' that may be more challenging. :p

phil

11-25-2009, 09:14 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/23/palin-supporters-struggle_n_367800.html

Nice video link to Palin supporters video.

mKKKgua7wQk

WorkFE

11-25-2009, 10:02 PM

Yeah, you stirred the bees nest with that find:D
I'm certain someone will find something just as nice for the other side of the house. You're not suggesting that is a fair representation of the republican party? I'd put cash money that most of them do not even know or have a political affiliation.

phil

11-25-2009, 10:20 PM

It really wasn't my intent, as you say, to stir a bee's nest (or would that be bees' nest). It was to show a video of a book signing. No way for me to collect the cash.

Thanks for watching.

grandma

11-26-2009, 12:01 AM

[QUOTE=phil;241919]... to stir a bee's nest (or would that be bees' nest). ... QUOTE]

the use of the letter `a' - or if at the beginning of a sentence `A',- usually indicates a single/ singular item, which then demands (depending on whether it is a teacher doing grammer &/or working on submissions of perfect theme papers, or just a general all-purpose critique-er*) the apostrophe before the `s.' . As the referred to phrase `a bee's nest' is written in singular possessive, it would indicate meaning the nest belonging to that particular bee. And since that particular bee has his own inborn duties, he probably could very well get that nest stirred up quite well.
Supposedly there are many here who could answer your question in a more articulate fashion than I can, I hope I have not offended you nor the others by jumping in...:)
Have a great Thanksgiving Day with all the timmings in Your Family's tradition! (The word `your' meaning each singular grouping for each of our Board
( Members, indicating need for the apostrophe before the `s'....

*italics indicate Non-word

phil

11-26-2009, 12:29 AM

That would indicate individual bees live in individual nests. Bees are collective by nature. Maybe it could be a collection of bees' nests, or different types of bees. Like: All the fishes in the ocean swim.

It's speculative, depending on what is meant. Stirring a bee's nest, stirring the bees' nest.

[QUOTE=phil;241919]... to stir a bee's nest (or would that be bees' nest). ... QUOTE]

the use of the letter `a' - or if at the beginning of a sentence `A',- usually indicates a single/ singular item, which then demands (depending on whether it is a teacher doing grammer &/or working on submissions of perfect theme papers, or just a general all-purpose critique-er*) the apostrophe before the `s.' . As the referred to phrase `a bee's nest' is written in singular possessive, it would indicate meaning the nest belonging to that particular bee. And since that particular bee has his own inborn duties, he probably could very well get that nest stirred up quite well.
Supposedly there are many here who could answer your question in a more articulate fashion than I can, I hope I have not offended you nor the others by jumping in...:)
Have a great Thanksgiving Day with all the timmings in Your Family's tradition! (The word `your' meaning each singular grouping for each of our Board
( Members, indicating need for the apostrophe before the `s'....

*italics indicate Non-word

PessOptimist

11-26-2009, 12:37 AM

Hey Phil
How about providing the US Senate bill number and a copy of the 209 page bill?

grandma

11-26-2009, 12:55 AM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/23/palin-supporters-struggle_n_367800.html

Nice video link to Palin supporters video.

mKKKgua7wQk

RE: the Sarah P book signing film -)
I wasn't able to watch/listen all the way thru, the film kept hanging every 10-15 seconds before rolling again, I gave up. Was the question asked if any of these folks read anything by or about President Obama, or what other subjects they read? Were they asked if they went to every book signing event in their area? James Patterson was just through here, and I understand there was a crowd there - would they have gone to his? He is a great kids' author, besides his suspense & mysteries.
I would like to suggest that every question asked of the book buyers,
and in any other street interviews, that these questions be asked of the residents of Harlem, of the folks standing in line for a `helping hand up;' that they be asked in the Spanish speakers' enclaves; and in other `out of the normal' places, places where ACORN recruited voters.
If this had been the line for Al Gore's books - how would it have been addressed differently? Yet, most everyone of those buyers would have been enthralled with "The Facts" they were finally going to get to see in print!!
In the not too distant past, someone posted a clip where the interviewer was asking questions about WWII, where is Iran, etc. If I recall, very few could answer. What culling went on before that film clip was posted on YouTube? Was the `Oldster,' who couldn't respond even remotely correctly about WWII, out on an outing with his caregiver? Maybe he had been among those on the Corregedor March??
Many times questions are posted on this board, very seldom is there an answer to the question, always a reference to an era in the past. So what is the difference? One group shown isn't answering questions in the manner or with the response that suits the asker, and another group isn't given any answer....
:)

James48843

11-26-2009, 01:00 AM

...a bee's nest vs. a bees' nestBut then again-

It is quite possible Phil was inferring it was a plural possessive- multiple bees living in the same joint nest.

Bee-ism, you know.

You see- that group of bees home you identified? (nest).

It's not a single-family home.

It's a commune. All the bees jointly occupy the hive- it's a shared resource belonging to no single bee, but rather they jointly share the housing as a collective. Bees are all Marxist, you know.

The bees freely work towards the collective good of the colony.

Honey, of course, is the fruit of the collective labor of them all. Communist Honey (or Socialist Honey, if you will) is the product which others may take away from the hive, but there are multiple tasks in the five-year plan to raise the level of all bees. There are quotas to meet, don't cha know.

It is interesting to note that not all worker bees perform the same task. Some stay at home to maintain the temperature of the hive. They are productive members of the community, but have been assigned this special task. If you ask the conservatives, they would call those bees lazy, freeloaders, or something else. But of course, they DO add value to the community.

Others are sent out to collect pollen that is later used to make food for the young.

The rest go out and suck up nectar in their little proboscis (beak) and return to make either comb (wax) or honey

The workers all share the tasks - they are, after all, workers- members of labor. Some are specialized in one task or another, but all share a place in the collective called the nest.

Bees are citizens of the petite proletariat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletariat) class, engaged in the continuing struggle against the ruling class- serving the bourgeoisie drones and the Queen, until one day an uprising within the hive changes the balance of power.

Or, maybe not.

At least that's what I think Phil was inferring, when he cited the apostrophe as a plural possessive (rule 4 (http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/apostro.asp)).

I can just see those little workers bees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_bee) now- rising up to share the wealth.:)

If this is getting TOO silly, well, then I'll leave it at that, and say, from the Progressive Place----

Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

7355

Buster

11-26-2009, 01:15 AM

So this is all Progressives can talk about? <---( a single group, as they are unable to function as single individuals)

HO-HO-HO-HO..Buzz, buzz, buzz a bunch of Frito's, Corn Chips.:laugh:

phil

11-26-2009, 01:22 AM

I don't have my own copy....as of yet. I'll just have to get Boehner to print me off a couple.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091124/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_legislation_inflation_4;_ylt=A0geu1 Dq4g1L8xMAFwCspph4

is the link to the story. From there, you can reference Thomas Registry:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c111:1:./temp/~c11140HgHT::

Again H.R. 3962

Hey Phil
How about providing the US Senate bill number and a copy of the 209 page bill?

Buster

11-26-2009, 01:29 AM

I don't have my own copy....as of yet. I'll just have to get Boehner to print me off a couple.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091124/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_legislation_inflation_4;_ylt=A0geu1 Dq4g1L8xMAFwCspph4

is the link to the story. From there, you can reference Thomas Registry:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c111:1:./temp/~c11140HgHT (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c111:1:./temp/%7Ec11140HgHT)::

Again H.R. 3962
Man I just had a good laugh..Thanks Phil...I was wondering when the name dropping would begin.:D:D

PessOptimist

11-26-2009, 01:29 AM

What is the SENATE bill number?

phil

11-26-2009, 01:30 AM

That's controversial I think. But here, we mind our own bees' nest (or bees' nests?). We can't really mind our own bee's nest, since there aren't individual bees whose nests we can mind. If anything, we're efficient; we believe in collective, cooperative and collaborative effort.

And.....we're quite literate as well. Puns are difficult, but rewarding.

So this is all Progressives can talk about? <---( a single group, as they are unable to function as single individuals)

HO-HO-HO-HO..Buzz, buzz, buzz a bunch of Frito's, Corn Chips.:laugh:

phil

11-26-2009, 02:02 AM

See James above.

What is the SENATE bill number?

grandma

11-26-2009, 02:07 AM

[QUOTE=James48843;241937]But then again-

It is quite possible Phil was inferring it was a plural possessive- multiple bees living in the same joint nest.
..considering that it was Workfe's post that Phil was critique-ing because WF hadn't used any apostrophies, one way or another, I have no idea what Phil was inferring - honestly! I did notice in a subsequent post he indicated no bee would refer to The Nest as his, because, apparently, that would offend the others that live & work there. So, I gather Phil lives alone - otherwise he couldn't refer to his home as his home.

Bee-ism, you know.
You see- that group of bees home you identified? (nest).
It's not a single-family home.
It's a commune. All the bees jointly occupy the hive- it's a shared resource belonging to no single bee, but rather they jointly share the housing as a collective. Bees are all Marxist, you know.
The bees freely work towards the collective good of the colony.
Honey, of course, is the fruit of the collective labor of them all. Communist Honey (or Socialist Honey, if you will) is the product which others may take away from the hive, but there are multiple tasks in the five-year plan to raise the level of all bees. There are quotas to meet, don't cha know.
It is interesting to note that not all worker bees perform the same task.
Presenting the insect world as a utopia sounds like a great solution. However, in the human world, I haven't seen much success of it. And presenting them as a Political entity might be right - look at how Lenon, Kruschev, & Marxism, attacked & butchered, or maybe only sent dissidents up to the frozen tundra in Siberia, any & all that even came near or appeared to want to interfere with their `hives.'
Isn't God good !!! His creation of each of the species fit them right into the Designer's Plan! I mean, look, He even seeded the right flowers for the bees, and for the butterflies, and for the hummingbirds! Wow! And he `gened' them for their part in their own particular society.... !!
He gave man a soul and a brain, and the gift of choice.

Some stay at home to maintain the temperature of the hive. They are productive members of the community, but have been assigned this special task. If you ask the conservatives, they would call those bees lazy, freeloaders, or something else. But of course, they DO add value to the community.
Now This comment definately explains a lot of responses from the `Progressives Only File '- obviously You have absolutely no understanding of Conservative thinking! I don't know of anyone who would call anyone lazy, or a freeloader if they are attending to their tasks!! You are using an analogy here, that reminds me of the Liberated Women's movement, that made every stay-at-home mom feel quite inferior, even caused some women to do `outside-the-home' work when that was definately not their intended profession or calling. The duties of a mother were considered beneath The Woman's dignity. Wives & mothers not in the outside workfield were called `oh, you're just a housewife.' You are saying that the type of work you do is the criteria of whether you are earning your way or not...... On the contrary, a Conservative will say if you want to eat, then Do Something to Assist!!
Now, if you like, we can discuss that my impression of some of the Liberal thinking I see posted here is close to the Grasshopper & the Ant story - where I am to work 8-12 hours/day, then when winter comes, share my comfort with those who lolly-gagged on the beach or on the street corners all summer. Those `in the know' make their choice, submit their Party vote - and - do what is pleasing to their senses, cuz there is gonna be a Liberal-thinking creature come around the bend in the river in a minute & shed tears over their devastating situation.

Others are sent out to collect pollen that is later used to make food for the young.
The rest go out and suck up nectar in their little proboscis (beak) and return to make either comb (wax) or honey
The workers all share the tasks - they are, after all, workers- members of labor. Some are specialized in one task or another, but all share a place in the collective called the nest.
Bees are citizens of the petite proletariat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletariat) class, engaged in the continuing struggle against the ruling class- serving the bourgeoisie drones and the Queen, until one day an uprising within the hive changes the balance of power.
Or, maybe not.
At least that's what I think Phil was inferring, when he cited the apostrophe as a plural possessive (rule 4 (http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/apostro.asp)).

I can just see those little workers bees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_bee) now- rising up to share the wealth.:)
Yes, sharing as in sharing the work, as in sharing the grub, as in sharing in heirochy of needs..... In the bee world, is there ever a case where a bee Does Not do his destined work? ..not because of illness or age, just doesn't....

If this is getting TOO silly, well, then I'll leave it at that, and say, from the Progressive Place----
Okay - I'm for that! Just do keep in mind these blue responses have NO reference to Benevolence, almsgiving, or feeding the multitudes... it is simply because you saw fit to make a political case out of Phil's grammer correction and publicize your belief that there are some in these United States that are entitled to everything you ( meaning You, James) own, by their own choice of what they want from you, & their own freewill !!...

Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

7355

James48843

11-26-2009, 02:12 AM

What is the SENATE bill number?

To clarify for PessOptimist:

The Senate voted to bring up H.R. 3950 to be the vehicle for the Health Care debate-

H.R.3590-- Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Amendment in Senate)

rather than work on a unique Senate bill at this time. If you are asking "What bill will the full Senate be debating, amending, and then voting on for the Health Care Bill?", the answer is H.R. 3590.

phil

11-26-2009, 02:18 AM

I really wasn't offering any critique. It's just an idea of individual vs. collective. Bees are not individuals, Grandma. It's really just a play on words, not a critique. Do I live alone? Unfortunately, alone and never alone. No, it wasn't even a grammar correction, grandma. There we go again.

How about stirring up the hornets' nest? http://www.answers.com/topic/stir-up-a-hornets-nest

Or stirring up the bees' nest? Can I actually stir up a bee's nest?

It is quite possible Phil was inferring it was a plural possessive- multiple bees living in the same joint nest.
..considering that it was Workfe's post that Phil was critique-ing because WF hadn't used any apostrophies, one way or another, I have no idea what Phil was inferring - honestly! I did notice in a subsequent post he indicated no bee would refer to The Nest as his, because, apparently, that would offend the others that live & work there. So, I gather Phil lives alone - otherwise he couldn't refer to his home as his home.

grandma

11-26-2009, 02:31 AM

I'm reading things like `with guidelines by the Secretary' in one of the Women's sections- are these `guidelines' in the bill in another place? Or are they to be developed later, or on case by case?
And - is this referring to the Sec of Health? (I'm reading in Phil's: S 1679)

James48843

11-26-2009, 02:32 AM

PessOptimist- the bill that the Senate voted Clouture on is H.R. 3950.

While it is 2074 pages when it is in the "mark-up" version, i.e. the one loaded up prior to the vote on the internet, double-spaced, lines numbered, etc, the actual bill in the Congressional Record has been typed in regular single spacing and is now 209 pages. You can access it through http://thomas.loc.gov

When you get there, look up the Congressional Record refernce if you like. Here is what that page looks like when you get there- (It IS the same words as the 2074 page one floating around in PDF.)

Here is what it looks like on Thomas:

TEXT OF AMENDMENTS -- (Senate - November 19, 2009)Page: S11607
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e0:) TITLE I--QUALITY, AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE FOR ALL AMERICANS
Subtitle A--Immediate Improvements in Health Care Coverage for All Americans
``PART A--Individual and Group Market Reforms
``SUBPART II--IMPROVING COVERAGE
Subtitle B--Immediate Actions to Preserve and Expand Coverage
Subtitle C--Quality Health Insurance Coverage for All Americans
PART I--Health Insurance Market Reforms
``SUBPART I--GENERAL REFORM
PART II--Other Provisions
Subtitle D--Available Coverage Choices for All Americans
PART I--Establishment of Qualified Health Plans
PART II--Consumer Choices and Insurance Competition Through Health Benefit...
PART III--State Flexibility Relating to Exchanges
Page: S11608
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e4373:) PART IV--State Flexibility to Establish Alternative Programs
PART V--Reinsurance and Risk Adjustment
Subtitle E--Affordable Coverage Choices for All Americans
PART I--Premium Tax Credits and Cost-sharing Reductions
SUBPART A--PREMIUM TAX CREDITS AND COST-SHARING REDUCTIONS
SUBPART B--ELIGIBILITY DETERMINATIONS
PART II--Small Business Tax Credit
Subtitle F--Shared Responsibility for Health Care
PART I--Individual Responsibility
PART II--Employer Responsibilities
Subtitle G--Miscellaneous Provisions
TITLE II--ROLE OF PUBLIC PROGRAMS
Subtitle A--Improved Access to Medicaid
Subtitle B--Enhanced Support for the Children's Health Insurance Program
Subtitle C--Medicaid and CHIP Enrollment Simplification
Subtitle D--Improvements to Medicaid Services
Subtitle E--New Options for States to Provide Long-Term Services and Supports
Subtitle F--Medicaid Prescription Drug Coverage
Subtitle G--Medicaid Disproportionate Share Hospital (DSH) Payments
Subtitle H--Improved Coordination for Dual Eligible Beneficiaries
Subtitle I--Improving the Quality of Medicaid for Patients and Providers
Subtitle J--Improvements to the Medicaid and CHIP Payment and Access Commission...
Subtitle K--Protections for American Indians and Alaska Natives
Subtitle L--Maternal and Child Health Services
TITLE III--IMPROVING THE QUALITY AND EFFICIENCY OF HEALTH CARE
Subtitle A--Transforming the Health Care Delivery System
PART I--Linking Payment to Quality Outcomes Under the Medicare Program
PART II--National Strategy to Improve Health Care Quality
Page: S11609
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e14536:) PART III--Encouraging Development of New Patient Care Models
Subtitle B--Improving Medicare for Patients and Providers
PART I--Ensuring Beneficiary Access to Physician Care and Other Services
PART II--Rural Protections
PART III--Improving Payment Accuracy
Subtitle C--Provisions Relating to Part C
Subtitle D--Medicare Part D Improvements for Prescription Drug Plans and MA-PD...
Subtitle E--Ensuring Medicare Sustainability
Subtitle F--Health Care Quality Improvements
TITLE IV--PREVENTION OF CHRONIC DISEASE AND IMPROVING PUBLIC HEALTH
Subtitle A--Modernizing Disease Prevention and Public Health Systems
Subtitle B--Increasing Access to Clinical Preventive Services
Page: S11610
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e24580:) Subtitle C--Creating Healthier Communities
Subtitle D--Support for Prevention and Public Health Innovation
Subtitle E--Miscellaneous Provisions
TITLE V--HEALTH CARE WORKFORCE
Subtitle A--Purpose and Definitions
Subtitle B--Innovations in the Health Care Workforce
Subtitle C--Increasing the Supply of the Health Care Workforce
Subtitle D--Enhancing Health Care Workforce Education and Training
Subtitle E--Supporting the Existing Health Care Workforce
Subtitle F--Strengthening Primary Care and Other Workforce Improvements
Subtitle G--Improving Access to Health Care Services
Subtitle H--General Provisions
TITLE VI--TRANSPARENCY AND PROGRAM INTEGRITY
Subtitle A--Physician Ownership and Other Transparency
Subtitle B--Nursing Home Transparency and Improvement
PART I--Improving Transparency of Information
PART II--Targeting Enforcement
PART III--Improving Staff Training
Subtitle C--Nationwide Program for National and State Background Checks on...
Subtitle D--Patient-Centered Outcomes Research
Subtitle E--Medicare, Medicaid, and CHIP Program Integrity Provisions
Page: S11611
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e34842:) Subtitle F--Additional Medicaid Program Integrity Provisions
Subtitle G--Additional Program Integrity Provisions
Subtitle H--Elder Justice Act
Subtitle I--Sense of the Senate Regarding Medical Malpractice
TITLE VII--IMPROVING ACCESS TO INNOVATIVE MEDICAL THERAPIES
Subtitle A--Biologics Price Competition and Innovation
Subtitle B--More Affordable Medicines for Children and Underserved Communities
TITLE VIII--CLASS ACT
TITLE IX--REVENUE PROVISIONS
Subtitle A--Revenue Offset Provisions
Subtitle B--Other Provisions
TITLE I--QUALITY, AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE FOR ALL AMERICANS
Subtitle A--Immediate Improvements in Health Care Coverage for All Americans
Page: S11612
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e45650:) Page: S11613
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e57299:) Page: S11614
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e68710:) Subtitle B--Immediate Actions to Preserve and Expand Coverage
Page: S11615
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e80705:) Page: S11616
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e92215:) Page: S11617
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e103740:) Page: S11618
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e115237:) Subtitle C--Quality Health Insurance Coverage for All Americans
Page: S11619
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e126705:) Page: S11620
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e138291:) Subtitle D--Available Coverage Choices for All Americans
Page: S11621
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e149710:) Page: S11622
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e161469:) Page: S11623
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e173116:) Page: S11624
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e184740:) Page: S11625
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e196325:) Page: S11626
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e208073:) Page: S11627
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e219599:) Page: S11628
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e231196:) Page: S11629
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e242965:) Page: S11630
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e254800:) Page: S11631
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e265792:) Page: S11632
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e278407:) Page: S11633
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e289852:) Subtitle E--Affordable Coverage Choices for All Americans
Page: S11634
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e301832:) Page: S11635
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e313337:) Page: S11636
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e325262:) Page: S11637
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e337070:) Page: S11638
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e348191:) Page: S11639
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e359790:) Page: S11640
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e371560:) Page: S11641
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e383235:) Page: S11642
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e394533:) Subtitle F--Shared Responsibility for Health Care
``CHAPTER 48--MAINTENANCE OF MINIMUM ESSENTIAL COVERAGE
Page: S11643
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e406169:) ``Chapter 48--Maintenance of Minimum Essential Coverage.''.
Page: S11644
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e417707:) ``SUBPART D--INFORMATION REGARDING HEALTH INSURANCE COVERAGE''.
Page: S11645
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e429495:) Page: S11646
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r111:43:./temp/%7Er111LzH1b4:e440936:) (more)

James48843

11-26-2009, 02:32 AM

it goes on for a total of 209 pages. You can get the whole thing on thomas.

James48843

11-26-2009, 02:36 AM

phil

11-26-2009, 02:37 AM

Maybe you can be a little clearer on this one. Are you somehow bitter at the Women's movement for doing something...... wrong? I don't think anyone can make you feel bad about yourself, not really.

[QUOTE=James48843;241937]But then again-
Now This comment definately explains a lot of responses from the `Progressives Only File '- obviously You have absolutely no understanding of Conservative thinking! I don't know of anyone who would call anyone lazy, or a freeloader if they are attending to their tasks!! You are using an analogy here, that reminds me of the Liberated Women's movement, that made every stay-at-home mom feel quite inferior, even caused some women to do `outside-the-home' work when that was definately not their intended profession or calling. The duties of a mother were considered beneath The Woman's dignity. Wives & mothers not in the outside workfield were called `oh, you're just a housewife.' You are saying that the type of work you do is the criteria of whether you are earning your way or not...... On the contrary, a Conservative will say if you want to eat, then Do Something to Assist!!
Now, if you like, we can discuss that my impression of some of the Liberal thinking I see posted here is close to the Grasshopper & the Ant story - where I am to work 8-12 hours/day, then when winter comes, share my comfort with those who lolly-gagged on the beach or on the street corners all summer. Those `in the know' make their choice, submit their Party vote - and - do what is pleasing to their senses, cuz there is gonna be a Liberal-thinking creature come around the bend in the river in a minute & shed tears over their devastating situation.

phil

11-26-2009, 02:40 AM

Thanks James. I hit the wrong link. It is on Thomas, it's just the wrong button on my browser. My apologies.

it goes on for a total of 209 pages. You can get the whole thing on thomas.

James48843

11-26-2009, 02:57 AM

That's the problem with Thomas- you can generate the link, but you can't cut and paste the link, because Thomas generates the text file only upon query, and then it only stays there for about five minutes before it releases.

Fun with low-tech stuff.

An Adobe would be easier. But then again, we're blessed in a Great Nation that we can read and see and yell about laws while they are still being drafted. That beats a lot of other countries in the world.

phil

11-26-2009, 03:06 AM

Sometimes it does. Then again, sometimes I think Socrates was right. We're only as good as our ability to reason.

James48843

11-26-2009, 03:07 AM

To PessOptimist:

Here is an example of the FIRST PAGE of the Congressional Record- it goes on for 209 pages when printed in the Congressional Record- and that is the same text as that 2074 double-space markup pages you read. But here is what it looks like to history, the first page of the 209 pages:
7356

You can also look it up on Thomas as Senate Amendment SA 2786.

It's technically a Senate Amendment (SA) to House Resolution (HR) HR3590.

If you use that SA 2786 as the bill number on Thomas, you can call it up that way too.

grandma

11-26-2009, 03:41 AM

...really wasn't offering any critique. It's just an idea of individual vs. collective. Bees are not individuals, Grandma. It's really just a play on words, not a critique. Do I live alone? Unfortunately, alone and never alone. No, it wasn't even a grammar correction, grandma. There we go again.

I was getting ready to make amends here, even with and in spite of, your
tutoral of: Bees are not individuals, Grandma. Of course they're not! Samson would still be waiting to dig into that lion if God hadn't foreseen the need to get that honey comb filled in good order! HowEver - this next statement again brings to the front why your postings are so easily taken as Offenses.....
Maybe you can be a little clearer on this one. Are you somehow bitter at the Women's movement for doing something...... wrong? I don't think anyone can make you feel bad about yourself, not really.
Clearer? Clearer in what way? Bitter about what? I think the Liberated Women's movement has been good for those who were/are the leaders of it. I think it did a rotten job of actually caring for women or their inner feelings & desires. Period. They had one goal, and that was control of millions of women who would do as they said, live the lives that they deemed important. Correct my recall: Hillary Clinton thought it was unseemly for mothers to be at home baking cookies for the kids' homeroom parties?
And why would you come up with the comment implying I feel bad about myself? Your psychology knack of turning & twisting has probably helped you move up into the position you are holding now & it may be important for the work you do. But it does help explain your `Flaming Liberal give America to China per Clinton era' mindset.
I don't envy you that talent, nor do I want it. I do, though, wonder about your inner peace, your satisfaction with Your Life, How you are living day to day. When a Christian says he is never alone, I would interpret that to be the understanding that Jesus is always at our side. So that is a curious statement. I don't understand, tho, why you would be living alone, when there are undoubtedly people within a short drive of your place that could use a warm bed for the winter. Think on it, Phil.... be the Marxist/Socialist James was speaking of...it sounded good. Many of us here on this Board are giving, that is why, for some, the mortgage, tho kept on time, is not paid off yet, why the floor is still simple cement....too many people w/o the roof, w/o the bed, w/o the feeling of the simplest of security - especially the kids.... Surely there are enough of you to each take over care for a family apiece. If you have been working in the food banks, the clothing pantries, the tutoring/schooling for kids & adults
for several years, then you can see the difference in the clientel coming in now - now those who have been forced to come thru loss of wages are sitting along with those who originally came by choice to not work and those who came into this country for this very thing. (If they bring an interpreter that speaks more than 10-12 words of English it helps.)
Anyway - Hopefully you will get some time off your job to have dinner with your extended family, or with your buddies' & their families. There have been some great Thanksgiving Greetings pictured here - Even turkeys who are not turkeys by choice so'as to beat the odds of losing their heads to the chopping block..... Take care - & go carefully -:)

Tom/James (moderator) - I am not sure how I came to be posting/responding in this Progressive File - believe me - I did not take deliberate steps to intrude.... whatever-----

phil

11-26-2009, 03:54 AM

Um. Okay, though now I'm probably less enlightened than before. Have a nice holiday anyway.

...really wasn't offering any critique. It's just an idea of individual vs. collective. Bees are not individuals, Grandma. It's really just a play on words, not a critique. Do I live alone? Unfortunately, alone and never alone. No, it wasn't even a grammar correction, grandma. There we go again.

I was getting ready to make amends here, even with and in spite of, your
tutoral of: Bees are not individuals, Grandma. Of course they're not! Samson would still be waiting to dig into that lion if God hadn't foreseen the need to get that honey comb filled in good order! HowEver - this next statement again brings to the front why your postings are so easily taken as Offenses.....

Clearer? Clearer in what way? Bitter about what? I think the Liberated Women's movement has been good for those who were/are the leaders of it. I think it did a rotten job of actually caring for women or their inner feelings & desires. Period. They had one goal, and that was control of millions of women who would do as they said, live the lives that they deemed important. Correct my recall: Hillary Clinton thought it was unseemly for mothers to be at home baking cookies for the kids' homeroom parties?
And why would you come up with the comment implying I feel bad about myself? Your psychology knack of turning & twisting has probably helped you move up into the position you are holding now & it may be important for the work you do. But it does help explain your `Flaming Liberal give America to China per Clinton era' mindset.
I don't envy you that talent, nor do I want it. I do, though, wonder about your inner peace, your satisfaction with Your Life, How you are living day to day. When a Christian says he is never alone, I would interpret that to be the understanding that Jesus is always at our side. So that is a curious statement. I don't understand, tho, why you would be living alone, when there are undoubtedly people within a short drive of your place that could use a warm bed for the winter. Think on it, Phil.... be the Marxist/Socialist James was speaking of...it sounded good. Many of us here on this Board are giving, that is why, for some, the mortgage, tho kept on time, is not paid off yet, why the floor is still simple cement....too many people w/o the roof, w/o the bed, w/o the feeling of the simplest of security - especially the kids.... Surely there are enough of you to each take over care for a family apiece. If you have been working in the food banks, the clothing pantries, the tutoring/schooling for kids & adults
for several years, then you can see the difference in the clientel coming in now - now those who have been forced to come thru loss of wages are sitting along with those who originally came by choice to not work and those who came into this country for this very thing. (If they bring an interpreter that speaks more than 10-12 words of English it helps.)
Anyway - Hopefully you will get some time off your job to have dinner with your extended family, or with your buddies' & their families. There have been some great Thanksgiving Greetings pictured here - Even turkeys who are not turkeys by choice so'as to beat the odds of losing their heads to the chopping block..... Take care - & go carefully -:)

Tom/James (moderator) - I am not sure how I came to be posting/responding in this Progressive File - believe me - I did not take deliberate steps to intrude.... whatever-----