Acorn

[Show-me]

SEPTEMBER 16, 2009, 7:12 A.M. ET

Acorn Runs Off the Rails

'We're just community organizers, just like the president used to be.'


By JOHN FUND (http://www.tsptalk.com/search/search_center.html?KEYWORDS=JOHN+FUND&ARTICLESEARCHQUERY_PARSER=bylineAND)

On Monday, the U.S. Senate voted 83-7 to strip Acorn, the premier community organizing group on the left, of more than $1.6 million in federal housing money meant to assist low-income people obtain loans and prepare tax forms. This dramatic step followed last Friday's decision by the U.S. Census Bureau to sever its ties with the organization, one of several community groups it was partnering with to conduct the nation's head count.

Both of these actions came after secretly recorded videos involving employees in Acorn's Brooklyn, N.Y., Washington, D.C., Baltimore, Md. and San Bernardino, Calif. offices were televised on Fox News. The videos were recorded by two independent filmmakers who posed as a prostitute and a pimp and said they were planning to import underage women from El Salvador for the sex trade. They asked for and received advice on getting a housing loan and evading federal taxes.

OpinionJournal.com Columnist John Fund says the infamous housing organization may not be done collecting federal contributions.
In response, Acorn has so far fired four of the employees seen on the videos. But it claimed the videos were "doctored" and accused critics of a smear campaign and "racist coverage" of the incidents.

Such rhetoric in the past has deflected scrutiny of Acorn tactics, such as street demonstrations and boycotts against banks to force lower credit standards for home loans, which a congressional report found contributed to the subprime loan mess. But now Acorn may be finally running off the rails.

...................

A growing number of people once affiliated with Acorn want nothing more to do with the group. Marcel Reid, for example, was one of eight national Acorn board members who were removed last year after demanding an audit of the group's books. She notes that Acorn received $7.4 million in contributions from the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) between 2005 and 2008 but actively fights unionization efforts by its own employees. Ms. Reid also notes that Acorn was sanctioned by the National Labor Relations Board in 2003 for illegally firing workers trying to organize a union.

In 1995, Acorn unsuccessfully sued California to be exempt from the minimum wage, claiming that "the more that Acorn must pay each individual outreach worker . . . the fewer outreach workers it will be able to hire." The decision to file that lawsuit was made by Wade Rathke, who founded Acorn in 1970 and was its long-time leader. He was forced by the group's board to resign last year after it found that he'd engaged in a cover-up of a nearly $1 million embezzlement of Acorn funds by his brother Dale, then the group's chief financial officer.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203917304574412792287663918.html?m od=rss_Today's_Most_Popular

[Show-me]

Time to cut bait.

[mick504]

The organization Acorn was partly responsible for putting our President into office...and to further their continued milking of taxpayer money to furthur the social agenda. They are a sad bunch...alot of which we really don't know that much about.

[Birchtree]

There should be an in depth investigation to see if there was outlandish voter fraud to the extent that the votes should be discarded. Perhaps BHO should resign like Nixon did.

[phil]

ACORN is conducting an investigation into the matter. Let's give them the opportunity to clean house.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090917/ap_on_go_ot/us_congress_acorn

[mayday]

ACORN is conducting an investigation into the matter. Let's give them the opportunity to clean house.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090917/ap_on_go_ot/us_congress_acorn

That's like asking the fox to guard the chicken coop.

[phil]

So.....what else should they be doing? They fired the workers in question and are seeking to conduct an internal investigation.

[mayday]

So.....what else should they be doing? They fired the workers in question and are seeking to conduct an internal investigation.

They should not get any tax payer dollars.

The congress should be doing the investigating, and all the local newspapers.

[nnuut]

ACORN Is Looking For A Few Good Gynecologists - Or Is Bill Gates In Favor Of Child Prostitution?
By now you are familiar with the ACORN Child Prostitution ring scandal. If not watch this video (http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2009/09/acorn-encourages-child-prostitution-and.html). Or you could watch this video (http://hotair.com/archives/2009/09/15/fox-news-posts-full-unedited-video-of-sting-on-acorn-san-bernardino/). Among others.

Well ACORN is embarrassed (http://biggovernment.com/2009/09/16/breaking-acorn-suspends-operations/) and plans to investigate what went wrong and who is to blame.
ACORN, calling the actions of some of its employees "indefensible," has suspended advising new clients as part of its service programs and is setting up an independent review to see what happened.
ACORN chief executive Bertha Lewis said in a written statement that she was "ordering a halt to any new intakes into ACORN's service programs until completion of an independent review."
Is the investigation going to be on the up and up? What do you think?

One way to tell is to see how they intend (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/16/acorn-suspends-plans-audit-wake-videos/) to do the investigation. [much more]
http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives/2009/09/acorn_is_lookin.html

[phil]

If ACORN is being cut off from federal funds, then I suppose they'll have to come up with money from other sources. Maybe some of us should send them money to assist them in the other work they do 99.999% of the time.

Maybe it's also about the good things they've done in the past as community organizers.

[DrScooter]

:cool: Instead of playing politics, such as ACORN a community organizing group JUST like Obama lets face some facts. There is illegal activity going on within many groups. Hey, that's why we have cops, court and the law. Charge and convict if you got the proof, the law has gone after the Church when laws were broken (who also had an internal investigation) the law can go after ACORN, the Democratic Party, the Republican Party or even FOX News. We are a nation of laws, if FOX uncovered something that's what journalists do. Police investigate and charge and then we have a trial. Obama is not a conspirator for sitting under an oak tree, if the charges lead up to the White-house then that is where they go, no man should be above the law, except Dick Cheney (:blink:)

[Buster]

:cool: no man should be above the law, except Dick Cheney (:blink:)

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b47/Atwater/scooter.jpg

[phil]

Sure. How much money should the taxpayers spend on this one? A few people made mistakes. I think the organization has already begun an internal investigation of the incidents, and have taken action.

[Show-me]

Were in the Constitution does is say we should give money to private sector organizations. Once again, quite using tax payer money and I mean for everyone. Let it be 100% private funded, if it stand on its own, fine.

Organizations receiving tax payer funding should be scrutinized to the nth degree.

[Frixxxx]

So.....what else should they be doing? They fired the workers in question and are seeking to conduct an internal investigation. How many more ACORN employees gave the same advice?

If ACORN is being cut off from federal funds, then I suppose they'll have to come up with money from other sources. Maybe some of us should send them money to assist them in the other work they do 99.999% of the time.

Maybe it's also about the good things they've done in the past as community organizers. If forging voter information and misrepresentation constitutes the other 99.999% then please...quit the government job you currently have and go to work for them. I hear they are hiring. They do have other supporters. The government is just pulling there subsidizing.

Sure. How much money should the taxpayers spend on this one? A few people made mistakes. I think the organization has already begun an internal investigation of the incidents, and have taken action.
Wow, and if Enron had the same "internal" investigation going on, I'd still have their stock, NOT!

Phil, please, a study of Acorn quickly reveals that they have not been the best organization out there in terms of "helping" people. Acorn was developed to support people trying to better themselves and their families. Instead, it has turned into prolific voice for instiutionalized welfare.:suspicious:

[mayday]

Phil, please, a study of Acorn quickly reveals that they have not been the best organization out there in terms of "helping" people. Acorn was developed to support people trying to better themselves and their families. Instead, it has turned into prolific voice for instiutionalized welfare.

Nice choice of words Frixxx.

[phil]

Perhaps I should go and work for ACORN. It does appear that they are actually helping people. I'm not really sure if I can compare them to Enron. Maybe you can see similarities.

Do you have a study of ACORN? I think it would be interesting to read about what they've done.

How many more ACORN employees gave the same advice?

If forging voter information and misrepresentation constitutes the other 99.999% then please...quit the government job you currently have and go to work for them. I hear they are hiring. They do have other supporters. The government is just pulling there subsidizing.


Wow, and if Enron had the same "internal" investigation going on, I'd still have their stock, NOT!

Phil, please, a study of Acorn quickly reveals that they have not been the best organization out there in terms of "helping" people. Acorn was developed to support people trying to better themselves and their families. Instead, it has turned into prolific voice for instiutionalized welfare.:suspicious:

[tsptalk]

What’s missing from the New York Times coverage of ACORN (http://michellemalkin.com/2009/09/16/whats-missing-from-the-new-york-times-coverage-of-acorn/)
By Michelle Malkin • September 16, 2009 12:09 AM

"By October 6, 2008, [Stephanie] Strom had thrown in the towel in the wake of blistering phone conversations with the Obama campaign. She wrote:

“I’m calling a halt to my efforts. I just had two unpleasant calls with the Obama campaign, wherein the spokesman was screaming and yelling and cursing me, calling me a rightwing nut and a conspiracy theorist and everything else…I’d still like to get that file from you when you have a chance to send it. One of these days, the truth is going to come out.”

email exchange (http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/new-york-times-e-mails22.pdf)

[phil]

Thanks for the post. Here's Michelle Malkin's bio, which also lists some of her more salient works. I'm really not sure how she would view ACORN. Perhaps it's contained in her book "In Defense of Internment: The Case for Racial Profiling in WWII and the war on Terror."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Malkin

[tsptalk]

The story is written by Malkin, but it is actally about Stephanie Strom and her attempt to break the story on ACORN. It is her actual emails, not Michelle's. It's an interesting exchange (http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/new-york-times-e-mails22.pdf).

[phil]

Thanks again for the post. I assume that Michelle Malkin is someone who often provides quotable quotes here. She's considered quite a moderate, I gather. Perhaps you should find something from Ann Coulter?

In November 2004, The Virginian-Pilot (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/The_Virginian-Pilot) dropped her column, calling her, among other things, "an Asian Ann Coulter (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Ann_Coulter)."[24] (http://www.tsptalk.com/mb/#cite_note-23) Malkin responded, "I'm not Asian, I'm American, for goodness' sake. I would take the comparison to Ann Coulter as somewhat of a compliment. I have a lot of respect for Ann Coulter".[25] (http://www.tsptalk.com/mb/#cite_note-24)

[nnuut]

All I can say is it's about time they cracked that nnuut!! 6819
I don't understand how they got away with all that they did it ithe first place!:nuts:

[Show-me]

Perhaps I should go and work for ACORN. It does appear that they are actually helping people. I'm not really sure if I can compare them to Enron. Maybe you can see similarities.

Do you have a study of ACORN? I think it would be interesting to read about what they've done.

I guess if you have a agenda recruiting, registering voters and shuttling uninformed voters to the polls is so much more helpful that teaching them a skill.

Just don't do it on the tax payers dime.

[phil]

No. No agenda for me. I just believe that people are sometimes better off in the world when there's a community that cares for them, and offers some hope.

Helping people on the taxpayers dime. That's a thought.

I guess if you have a agenda recruiting, registering voters and shuttling uninformed voters to the polls is so much more helpful that teaching them a skill.

Just don't do it on the tax payers dime.

[Show-me]

No. No agenda for me. I just believe that people are sometimes better off in the world when there's a community that cares for them, and offers some hope.

Helping people on the taxpayers dime. That's a thought.

No it is not, they want help go to church, go the the many private organization that offer help. Don't make it a law and force people that don't want it to pay for it. Government provides for defense and general welfare and don't forget the government has nothing with out the tax payers.

[Viva La Migra]

No it is not, they want help go to church, go the the many private organization that offer help. Don't make it a law and force people that don't want it to pay for it. Government provides for defense and general welfare and don't forget the government has nothing with out the tax payers.
You don't understand, the agenda for many liberals is to get as many people dependent on the government for every facet of their lives as possible. That way they stay in power. It is total and complete control that many of them want. That is how every totalitarian regime starts out. Provide for the people, make them dependent, then take away their liberty! I fear that is the direction in which we are headed.

[Show-me]

You don't understand, the agenda for many liberals is to get as many people dependent on the government for every facet of their lives as possible. That way they stay in power. It is total and complete control that many of them want. That is how every totalitarian regime starts out. Provide for the people, make them dependent, then take away their liberty! I fear that is the direction in which we are headed.

Yes, I know and agree and will not sit down, shut up, and get over it while this Administration tries to steam roll crap legislation through Congress and onto the backs of tax PAYERS!:D

[phil]

Private charities can also help people. Sometimes, though, I believe that government intervention in the economic lives of people is necessary. I don't ask charities to build roads and schools in America. I think there's probably a bit more than just providing for the national defense. Right now, with 2 inherited wars (one that was completely self created), I think we can probably focus more on helping Americans. Let's just consider costs of this war in Iraq for a few moments, and what it's cost us internationally. It's mind boggling.

No it is not, they want help go to church, go the the many private organization that offer help. Don't make it a law and force people that don't want it to pay for it. Government provides for defense and general welfare and don't forget the government has nothing with out the tax payers.

[Show-me]

Private charities can also help people. Sometimes, though, I believe that government intervention in the economic lives of people is necessary. I don't ask charities to build roads and schools in America. I think there's probably a bit more than just providing for the national defense. Right now, with 2 inherited wars (one that was completely self created), I think we can probably focus more on helping Americans. Let's just consider costs of this war in Iraq for a few moments, and what it's cost us internationally. It's mind boggling.

I agree the war was a waste, but how much do we throw down a hole by "helping" people. Pay their mortgage, pay their car, how about cash for appliances coming soon, insurance, electric, heat, food, education, day care, medical bill, nursing home bill, retirement funding, etc. When does it stop. It cost money. We are broke begging China to buy our bonds.

[Show-me]

You can't use the inherited war claim forever. He owns it now and aint making the "change".

[Birchtree]

You forgot to mention high school day care to take care of our illegitimate children born to minority high risk single mothers. Most of these kids have their own apartments fully paid for by the government - to include utilities. It's one way to get away from poverty at home.

[mayday]

You forgot to mention high school day care to take care of our illegitimate children born to minority high risk single mothers. Most of these kids have their own apartments fully paid for by the government - to include utilities. It's one way to get away from poverty at home.

Where's daddy?

[Birchtree]

Daddy is either in prison or selling on the corner - just being irresponsible. A lot of these guys are older males and can keep several women simultaneously knocked up and end up getting a kick back for services provided. It's a way for slime to survive. But you will not hear any liberal admit that this is happening. The whole program is designed to protect the children - and these people are gaming the system at the expense of their children.

[mayday]

Daddy is either in prison or selling on the corner - just being irresponsible. A lot of these guys are older males and can keep several women simultaneously knocked up and end up getting a kick back for services provided. It's a way for slime to survive. But you will not hear any liberal admit that this is happening. The whole program is designed to protect the children - and these people are gaming the system at the expense of their children.

Exactly: Reality bites.

[coolhand]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aJz3wWKaVmkw

[phil]

That's a good question. About how much of the federal budget is used for this? Can anyone venture a guess?


I agree the war was a waste, but how much do we throw down a hole by "helping" people. Pay their mortgage, pay their car, how about cash for appliances coming soon, insurance, electric, heat, food, education, day care, medical bill, nursing home bill, retirement funding, etc. When does it stop. It cost money. We are broke begging China to buy our bonds.

[coolhand]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/27270.html

[Show-me]

That's a good question. About how much of the federal budget is used for this? Can anyone venture a guess?

So that justifies it because it is a portion? NOT! We revolted and created the Declaration of Independence because of the lack of representation and unfair taxation.

The Kings live on.

[phil]

Lack of representation? Unless you live in Washington, D.C., I believe you elect your representative. Unfair taxation? Compared to whom? Tax rates all over the developed world are usually higher than the US.


I really don't understand.

The question remains as to specifics.

[James48843]

You can't use the inherited war claim forever. He owns it now and aint making the "change".


Sooo... you are in favor of pulling all our soldiers home?

Just wondering.

[Show-me]

Lack of representation? Unless you live in Washington, D.C., I believe you elect your representative. Unfair taxation? Compared to whom? Tax rates all over the developed world are usually higher than the US.


I really don't understand.

The question remains as to specifics.

Ok, we base our taxation on what other countries tax burdens. No! Why not balance the budget. Eliminate the tax code and go to a Fair Tax system.

The two party system fails to provide adequate options.

Our elected officials went against the overwhelming majority that wrote into them, called them, and they bailed out the financial sector. That was less that a year ago. I remember it well. The people flood their offices with calls and emails.

Once elected they run wild and go to bed with what ever lobbiest gives them the cash for re-election. It is the ultimate good old boys and girls club.

[Show-me]

Sooo... you are in favor of pulling all our soldiers home?

Just wondering.

I have always been on the fence since the intelligence debacle and why did we not crucify CIA Director Tenant that was in charge. Instead he was allowed to retire and got a award from GWB. Brilliant!

Afghanistan is the real war IMO. Iraq was the Bush get even war and the who's got the untapped reserves war, but how do you pull out quickly after you decimated their entire country and infrastructure. It would not be just to those folks.

[Show-me]

Also the fact that the house of Saddam Hussein is dead does warm my heart a little. He and his sons murdered and tortured hundreds of people. They were evil people.

[phil]

It's all available in the 9/11 report. I can't answer the question as to why people weren't held accountable. We were busy punishing people who kept telling us the truth.

Is this part of the idea of a full-employment economy? Who here is the socialist? We invade Iraq and Afghanistan, destroy Iraq's infrastructure, then rebuild Iraq's infrastructure. We seem to be doing that quite a bit around the world.

Am I missing some key point here?


I have always been on the fence since the intelligence debacle and why did we not crucify CIA Director Tenant that was in charge. Instead he was allowed to retire and got a award from GWB. Brilliant!

Afghanistan is the real war IMO. Iraq was the Bush get even war and the who's got the untapped reserves war, but how do you pull out quickly after you decimated their entire country and infrastructure. It would not be just to those folks.

[phil]

I agree with fair taxes, and small government. Examining the federal budget, I can see where the largest outlays are. I guess the current administration has a big job getting control of those outlays!

About bailing out the banks: I think that was probably the responsible thing to do.

As far as lobbyists: Let's follow the money. I encourage you to look where the money from these lobbyists goes.

Ok, we base our taxation on what other countries tax burdens. No! Why not balance the budget. Eliminate the tax code and go to a Fair Tax system.

The two party system fails to provide adequate options.

Our elected officials went against the overwhelming majority that wrote into them, called them, and they bailed out the financial sector. That was less that a year ago. I remember it well. The people flood their offices with calls and emails.

Once elected they run wild and go to bed with what ever lobbiest gives them the cash for re-election. It is the ultimate good old boys and girls club.

[Show-me]

It's all available in the 9/11 report. I can't answer the question as to why people weren't held accountable. We were busy punishing people who kept telling us the truth.

Is this part of the idea of a full-employment economy? Who here is the socialist? We invade Iraq and Afghanistan, destroy Iraq's infrastructure, then rebuild Iraq's infrastructure. We seem to be doing that quite a bit around the world.

Am I missing some key point here?

I agree with fair taxes, and small government. Examining the federal budget, I can see where the largest outlays are. I guess the current administration has a big job getting control of those outlays!

About bailing out the banks: I think that was probably the responsible thing to do.

As far as lobbyists: Let's follow the money. I encourage you to look where the money from these lobbyists goes.

Rebuilding Iraq's infrastructure has nothing to do with Socialism, it is about avoiding a draft and rewarding campaign contributer by giving no bid contracts. Iraq IMO was the most subcontracted war to the private sector ever.

Look up the "Fair Tax System".

Bailing out banks for bad behavior is wrong unless the legislator that made the crappy laws requiring them to give loans to people that could not afford them is a way of covering your ass.

Here we go, if the Repubs get 25% and Dems get 75% does it make it any more right.

I'm pretty sure Obama broke all the fund raising records after he made a agreement to use the system McCain used. He lied to McCain about that and that sets the tone.

[Birchtree]

Now that "Squeaky" Fromme is out of jail she has decided to become an entrepreneur starting a new business. Her most recent business card states - "Have Colt - Will Travel".

[phil]

So. What's the answer?


Rebuilding Iraq's infrastructure has nothing to do with Socialism, it is about avoiding a draft and rewarding campaign contributer by giving no bid contracts. Iraq IMO was the most subcontracted war to the private sector ever.

Look up the "Fair Tax System".

Bailing out banks for bad behavior is wrong unless the legislator that made the crappy laws requiring them to give loans to people that could not afford them is a way of covering your ass.

Here we go, if the Repubs get 25% and Dems get 75% does it make it any more right.

I'm pretty sure Obama broke all the fund raising records after he made a agreement to use the system McCain used. He lied to McCain about that and that sets the tone.

[coolhand]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/17/AR2009091704805.html?hpid=topnews

[coolhand]

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/september_2009/51_say_congress_should_stop_funding_acorn

[phil]

I see we're going to have to hold anyone and everyone to the same standards that we hold ACORN. That goes for all of the contractors that work for the government.

I think ACORN is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure that there's more to be discovered. Let's use the same criteria for everyone who has a contract with the government. I look forward to the future.

[Show-me]

So. What's the answer?

Give me the direct question.

The answer is always fiscal responsibility and to not tax and spend your way to oblivion with out first correcting the balance sheets of all the other program to include the budget. Vote the incubate out and I mean both Parties. Vote third party!

[Show-me]

And, don't sugar coat it. :D

[ezmoney]

Give me the direct question.

The answer is always fiscal responsibility and to not tax and spend your way to oblivion with out first correcting the balance sheets of all the other program to include the budget. Vote the incubate out and I mean both Parties. Vote third party!


My sentiments exactly, we will have done nothing by voting a democrat out and replacing them with a republican, or voting a republican out and replacing them with democrat. I'm sure there are good hardworking individuals from both parties that have done some great things for their particular state but until we are willing to vote them all out and replace them and hold the next party to that standard and replace them as well; we will have the same old politics. Whoever has the money is all they are interested in. Suffer America we ain't had enough yet!:(

[phil]

All the 3rd parties have been destroyed. I already voted Nader once. Both the greens and Ross Perot's party have been taken over and gutted.

Give me the direct question.

The answer is always fiscal responsibility and to not tax and spend your way to oblivion with out first correcting the balance sheets of all the other program to include the budget. Vote the incubate out and I mean both Parties. Vote third party!

[Viva La Migra]

All the 3rd parties have been destroyed. I already voted Nader once. Both the greens and Ross Perot's party have been taken over and gutted.
Thanks for the Nader vote.:laugh:

[coolhand]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/19/AR2009091902550_3.html?wprss=rss_print

[phil]

Thanks for the Nader vote.:laugh:


Not a problem. My friend voted for Gore, I voted Nader.

[mick504]

What amazes me is the caliber of the employees of Acorn in the recent videos. Where in the hell do they get these people. I was amazed that they ...Acorn employees would give people advice which is illegal. Advising people how to run a business which includes human trafficing for underage girls....for purposes of prostituting...hiding income etc. You couldn't write stuff better than this. It truly is a tragedy....yeah....let's sue those people...for improper video taping us and Fox news for airing this ....they are the real culprits. Dah Dah!

[Viva La Migra]

Not a problem. My friend voted for Gore, I voted Nader.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have rubbed salt in the wound like that. No doubt you thought Nader had a chance and would do a good job. I thought the same of Ross Perot, but he backed out at the last minute.

[Show-me]

Never mind.

[Viva La Migra]

I see we're going to have to hold anyone and everyone to the same standards that we hold ACORN. That goes for all of the contractors that work for the government.

I think ACORN is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure that there's more to be discovered. Let's use the same criteria for everyone who has a contract with the government. I look forward to the future.
We may have found something we can agree on! Mark the date and time! :D

Just so we're clear, what are the standards that ACORN is being held to?

[tsptalk]

Now the Justice Department has stated that it is going to investigate ACORN.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/21/justice-department-inspector-general-launches-internal-acorn-probe/

[coolhand]

Now the Justice Department has stated that it is going to investigate ACORN.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/21/justice-department-inspector-general-launches-internal-acorn-probe/

Too many transgressions in too many places to ignore. About time.

[Viva La Migra]

Now the Justice Department has stated that it is going to investigate ACORN.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/21/justice-department-inspector-general-launches-internal-acorn-probe/
I stated the opposite in another thread. I sit at my desk corrected.:embarrest:

I don't think anything will come of it though. The Dems aren't going to bite the hand that feeds them. They may find a scapegoat, but that's about it.

[Christopher]

Transparency is increasing, as promised during the campaign.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020448830457442704163636038 8.html

[coolhand]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/22/acorn-selects-massachusetts-attorney-general-lead-internal-investigation/?test=latestnews

[phil]

The standard is: if anyone in your organization does something even remotely illegal, then you won't receive any federal funding. Let's see, all we need now is to find someone in any government department who does something wrong, then congress can withhold any and all funds.

Sounds good. We'll go with that.


We may have found something we can agree on! Mark the date and time! :D

Just so we're clear, what are the standards that ACORN is being held to?

[tsptalk]

Transparency is increasing, as promised during the campaign.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020448830457442704163636038 8.html
LOL. Page not available. Transparent :D

[phil]

Then, if we are to use one standard, no organization that has employees that are involved in wrongdoing/fraud should get any tax dollars.

Yippee! Let the good times roll!


They should not get any tax payer dollars.

The congress should be doing the investigating, and all the local newspapers.

[Viva La Migra]

The standard is: if anyone in your organization does something even remotely illegal, then you won't receive any federal funding. Let's see, all we need now is to find someone in any government department who does something wrong, then congress can withhold any and all funds.

Sounds good. We'll go with that.
Sure. Shut the country down completely. I don't believe there is a department, state, or government contractor around receiving federal dollars that hasn't had a bad apple make them look bad. Using your standard the entire country would shut down. Don't be so melodramatic!

[tsptalk]

ACORN has shown a pattern of wrongdoing from the top down. The former head Dale Rafke gets caught embezzling $1 million. I believe it over 30 now, the number of employees convicted of voter fraud, and now this pattern of front line employees giving advice on how to get away with illegal activities.

There is also strong evidence that they have hidden and shuffled money around between their multiple "organizations" since day one, in an effort to complicate the books.

Given this, I certainly believe think an investigation is warranted. If another agency or group has a similar track record, they should also be looked in to. This is taxpayer money and anyone who thinks they should not be investigated is either naive, an ideologue, or possibly in on the take and thus part of the corruption.

But I digress.

[Viva La Migra]

ACORN has shown a pattern of wrongdoing from the top down. The former head Dale Rafke gets caught embezzling $1 million. I believe it over 30 now, the number of employees convicted of voter fraud, and now this pattern of front line employees giving advice on how to get away with illegal activities.

There is also strong evidence that they have hidden and shuffled money around between their multiple "organizations" since day one, in an effort to complicate the books.

Given this, I certainly believe think an investigation is warranted. If another agency or group has a similar track record, they should also be looked in to. This is taxpayer money and anyone who thinks they should not be investigated is either naive, an ideologue, or possibly in on the take and thus part of the corruption.

But I digress.
I think Phil might be looking at Halliburton and their ties to Dick Cheney, but I don't want to put words into his mouth.

[Buster]

Oh hell with it..ACORN are a bunch of Nuts, anyway.:D

[mick504]

Isn't Acorn a non-profit organization...even if for profit....I believe they are required to have an annual public audit....that's a place to start to look for money or other deficiencies. Then go from there.

[phil]

The pittance that was given to Acorn is almost next to nothing compared to what's been given to so many other contracts. Investigations will be necessary for all of these, no doubt.

Let's start with the bucks given to the intelligence community, then work our way down. Wait.......can they even BE audited.


Isn't Acorn a non-profit organization...even if for profit....I believe they are required to have an annual public audit....that's a place to start to look for money or other deficiencies. Then go from there.

[mayday]

Obama is Acorn's god.:( He will not do anything to harm his followers.

[Christopher]

YIKES! WSJ moved the original article...let's try this again:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204488304574427041636360388.html ;)

LOL. Page not available. Transparent :D

[coolhand]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/27503.html

[coolhand]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/23/AR2009092302110.html?wprss=rss_nation

[phil]

What this is REALLY about.


http://www.uni.edu/martinc/acornstudy.html

l

[mayday]

What this is REALLY about.


http://www.uni.edu/martinc/acornstudy.html

l

We are getting to know who worships Obama.

The Obamanites are a obamanation.

[James48843]

What this is REALLY about.


http://www.uni.edu/martinc/acornstudy.html

l


Worth reading.

An informed public deserves to know the truth.

An excerpt:


82.8% of the stories about ACORN’s alleged involvement in voter fraud failed to
mention that actual voter fraud is very rare (only 17.2% did mention it)
 80.3% of the stories about ACORN’s alleged involvement in voter fraud failed to
mention that ACORN was reporting registration irregularities to authorities, as
required to do by law
 85.1% of the stories about ACORN’s alleged involvement in voter fraud failed to
note that ACORN was acting to stop incidents of registration problems by its
(mostly temporary) employees when it became aware of these problems
 95.8% of the stories about ACORN’s alleged involvement in voter fraud failed to
provide deeper context, especially efforts by Republican Party officials to use
allegations of “voter fraud” to dampen voting by low‐income and minority
Americans, including the firing of U.S. Attorneys who refused to cooperate with
the politicization of voter fraud accusations

[coolhand]

What this is REALLY about.


http://www.uni.edu/martinc/acornstudy.html

l

This is an example of politics as it's played on both sides of the fence. You're trying to defend the indefensible. Maybe ACORN at one time had noble intentions, but it was corrupted by corrupt and unscrupulous people. Much like unions of long ago who actually fought for the people they represented, but gradually morphed from the voice of the people into a politically driven machine often engaging in activities that have nothing to do with their original reason for being.

[Show-me]

This is an example of politics as it's played on both sides of the fence. You're trying to defend the indefensible. Maybe ACORN at one time had noble intentions, but it was corrupted by corrupt and unscrupulous people. Much like unions of long ago who actually fought for the people they represented, but gradually morphed from the voice of the people into a politically driven machine often engaging in activities that have nothing to do with their original reason for being.

O'man, well said!

[coolhand]

http://www.news-herald.com/articles/2009/09/22/opinion/nh1465444.txt

http://www.yournabe.com/articles/2009/09/24/queens/queensyfohybt09232009.txt

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.4367/pub_detail.asp

http://www.thesuntimes.com/opinions/columnists/x1073707615/ACORN-the-final-insult

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6JqFvbBi4s

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/09/us/09embezzle.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1253877147-z0NqS0hDHi8zms6KfehePw

If Obama can call ACORN's actions unacceptable, why can't you?

http://www.abcnews.go.com/WN/white-house-calls-acorn-employees-behavior-unacceptable/Story?id=8593161&page=1

[phil]

I think people are being a bit premature in blaming ACORN for the various and sundry ills that affect America. It's a target of the right, and has always been a target. They register voters in poorer neighborhoods, whether Democrat, Republican or whatever.

This is the crux of the issue. Right now, not many people support ACORN, but I will. It's pretty obvious that the enormous machine on the right wants to do them in for their own purposes.

Corruption? I'd first look at the enormous amount of money that has been spent on other projects inside and outside the US. That's what really deserves attention. The mid-term elections are coming up, and now the conservatives will do whatever they can to get rid of this organization. They already tried in the 2008 election cycle.

[coolhand]

I think people are being a bit premature in blaming ACORN for the various and sundry ills that affect America. It's a target of the right, and has always been a target. They register voters in poorer neighborhoods, whether Democrat, Republican or whatever.

This is the crux of the issue. Right now, not many people support ACORN, but I will. It's pretty obvious that the enormous machine on the right wants to do them in for their own purposes.

Corruption? I'd first look at the enormous amount of money that has been spent on other projects inside and outside the US. That's what really deserves attention. The mid-term elections are coming up, and now the conservatives will do whatever they can to get rid of this organization. They already tried in the 2008 election cycle.

Let's face it phil, you're firmly planted far left of center. Whether one is far left or far right, it's a losing proposition. That's the point I'm really trying to make. The political machine doesn't care which side you want to be on, it uses all pawns for it's own purposes.

Peace brother.

[nnuut]

Hey!! Why don't we have Community Organizers in my neighborhood????? WHATS UP WITH THAT?:nuts:

[coolhand]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB_2oIKUVks

[phil]

I've voted for both parties. Right now, I don't see that the
Republicans have much in the way of moral authority in our country. They've mortgaged that over the years. I don't really see myself as planted in the far left at all. I just wish that more moderate members of the party would be more vocal in supporting doing what's right. I don't want to have to do it all by myself.



Let's face it phil, you're firmly planted far left of center. Whether one is far left or far right, it's a losing proposition. That's the point I'm really trying to make. The political machine doesn't care which side you want to be on, it uses all pawns for it's own purposes.

Peace brother.

[coolhand]

I've voted for both parties. Right now, I don't see that the
Republicans have much in the way of moral authority in our country. They've mortgaged that over the years. I don't really see myself as planted in the far left at all. I just wish that more moderate members of the party would be more vocal in supporting doing what's right. I don't want to have to do it all by myself.

You're probably right. No pun intended. :D

[tsptalk]

More trouble...

ACORN Funded Political, For-Profit Efforts, Data Show (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/24/AR2009092404249.html?hpid=topnews)

"Actions Were Before Leadership Change"

"Documents released by a Senate Republican on Thursday show that leaders of the ACORN community organizing network transferred several million dollars in charitable and government money meant for the poor to arms of the group that have political and sometimes profit-making missions.

"ACORN's tax-exempt groups and allied organizations, long a target of conservative ire, used more than half their charitable and public money in 2006 to pay other ACORN affiliates"

[Buster]

You're probably right. No pun intended. :D


Now he's in his Right Mind.:p:D

[coolhand]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125409478511144963.html

[coolhand]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,557461,00.html?test=latestnews

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-acorn30-2009sep30,0,940624.story

[Warrenlm]

With regard to the expected demise of ACORN, and the seeming focus on killing it, I remember hearing the prediction that the corporate entity will die but be reincarnated in another name. That new name will receive the IRS and federal funding status previously held by ACORN. I'm reminded of the Persian rug store in our area that has gone out of business multiple times. The root of the problem is probably the IRS code section which this Congress won't change.

[Show-me]

With regard to the expected demise of ACORN, and the seeming focus on killing it, I remember hearing the prediction that the corporate entity will die but be reincarnated in another name. That new name will receive the IRS and federal funding status previously held by ACORN. I'm reminded of the Persian rug store in our area that has gone out of business multiple times. The root of the problem is probably the IRS code section which this Congress won't change.

Warrenlm,

You are on a roll this morning! Exactly the problem, Congress does not have a back bone to make the changes necessary. Abolish the income tax and the IRS and use a National Sales Tax. Vote the incumbent out! :D

[phil]

It seems that ACORN is merely a target of the right. They're not the only target. Well before this, labor unions were also the target, and will continue to be their target. What they really can't stop is the movement of people and social/economic justice. Isn't that the real target of their ire?

With regard to the expected demise of ACORN, and the seeming focus on killing it, I remember hearing the prediction that the corporate entity will die but be reincarnated in another name. That new name will receive the IRS and federal funding status previously held by ACORN. I'm reminded of the Persian rug store in our area that has gone out of business multiple times. The root of the problem is probably the IRS code section which this Congress won't change.

[nnuut]

When a PRIVATE Organization, tax exempt and funded by tax dollars affects the outcome of a Presidential election, SOMETHING is WRONG!! ACORN is a Black Widow with many legs, it will take much Bug Spray to kill this one, but it needs to be done, FUNGUS!!:nuts:

[Viva La Migra]

It seems that ACORN is merely a target of the right. They're not the only target. Well before this, labor unions were also the target, and will continue to be their target. What they really can't stop is the movement of people and social/economic justice. Isn't that the real target of their ire?
ACORN has a corruption problem. That's why they're being targeted. Once that corruption is rooted out and eliminated, they'll recover and probably become stronger as a result. I've spoken harshly about the organization in the recent past, but I do realize that not everyone in that organization is corrupt. They need to become a non-partisan organization and return to their noble work of encouraging citizens to vote and helping the poor. The organization has lost it's way, IMHO.

Social/economic justice? Sounds a lot like Marxism to me. Why not seek out social/economic freedom? I understand that's more difficult, because it forces one to work hard to obtain what one desires. It's much easier to take from one class and give to another. We have social/economic freedom now, but there are way too many out there that don't want to work for it. They want it handed to them on a silver platter. Look at the welfare system. Many of those people can work, but choose not to.

Labor unions are targeted because of their politics. The left targets the right for the same reasons. I've opposed attempts by the right to force unions to get permission from members to spend union dues on candidate elections, because I think it not only violates free speech, but also because they don't force corporations to obtain approval of stock holders before supporting election campaigns. I might be willing to support "campaign finance reform" if limits were put on both sides to make it an even playing field.

[coolhand]

http://biggovernment.com/2009/10/01/exclusive-acorn-legal-memo-confirms-depths-of-troubles/#

[coolhand]

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2009/10/beleaguered_acorn_losing_found.html

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/sfl-02parkersboct02,0,923489.story

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/01/BAR119VRM1.DTL&tsp=1

[coolhand]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-bd-census-politics-04-oct04,0,2149033.story

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/02/AR2009100205261.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125453623235261195.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=326134&src=

[phil]

I don't think that ACORN is being targetted by the right for being corrupt. Nor really does anyone. I like the idea of applying the same standard to all entities that receive taxpayer funds. Let the good times roll!

About sounding like a Marxist: okay, I guess so. Yes, I really can agree with the idea about hard work and reward. I just can't seem to get anyone else to agree.

One year ago today, Congress passed the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008, establishing the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) and authorizing the use of $700 billion in Treasury funds to bail out the banking and finance industry.
This resulted in the greatest plundering of the public treasury and transfer of wealth from the taxpayers to the financial elite in history.


ACORN has a corruption problem. That's why they're being targeted. Once that corruption is rooted out and eliminated, they'll recover and probably become stronger as a result. I've spoken harshly about the organization in the recent past, but I do realize that not everyone in that organization is corrupt. They need to become a non-partisan organization and return to their noble work of encouraging citizens to vote and helping the poor. The organization has lost it's way, IMHO.

Social/economic justice? Sounds a lot like Marxism to me. Why not seek out social/economic freedom? I understand that's more difficult, because it forces one to work hard to obtain what one desires. It's much easier to take from one class and give to another. We have social/economic freedom now, but there are way too many out there that don't want to work for it. They want it handed to them on a silver platter. Look at the welfare system. Many of those people can work, but choose not to.

Labor unions are targeted because of their politics. The left targets the right for the same reasons. I've opposed attempts by the right to force unions to get permission from members to spend union dues on candidate elections, because I think it not only violates free speech, but also because they don't force corporations to obtain approval of stock holders before supporting election campaigns. I might be willing to support "campaign finance reform" if limits were put on both sides to make it an even playing field.

[James48843]

.. I've opposed attempts by the right to force unions to get permission from members to spend union dues on candidate elections, because I think it not only violates free speech, but also because they don't force corporations to obtain approval of stock holders before supporting election campaigns. I might be willing to support "campaign finance reform" if limits were put on both sides to make it an even playing field.

It is already illegal to spend Union dues on elections, and has been so for nearly 20 years. Same for corporations- it's illegal to spend corporation shareholder resources on elections.

See http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aDLrevy5trcw

for a case that is coming up, that may affect those rulings and laws.

[James48843]

It is already illegal to spend Union dues on elections, and has been so for nearly 20 years. Same for corporations- it's illegal to spend corporation shareholder resources on elections.

See http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aDLrevy5trcw

for a case that is coming up, that may affect those rulings and laws.

Actually- corporations have been banned since 1907, and Unions have been banned since 1947. Congress outlawed corporate contributions to federal campaigns in 1907 and extended the ban to unions in 1947. The Supreme court rejected a constitutional challenge to a similar state law in 1990 and upheld another law in 2003 prohibiting corporate and union donations of so-called soft money to political parties for organizing activities.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/04/MNR119VTSS.DTL#ixzz0T2AzocUE

[Viva La Migra]

One year ago today, Congress passed the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008, establishing the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) and authorizing the use of $700 billion in Treasury funds to bail out the banking and finance industry.
This resulted in the greatest plundering of the public treasury and transfer of wealth from the taxpayers to the financial elite in history.
Once again we find something we agree on! WOW! Be careful! I think if we find one more thing to agree on it will signal the end of days!:laugh:

[Viva La Migra]

Actually- corporations have been banned since 1907, and Unions have been banned since 1947. Congress outlawed corporate contributions to federal campaigns in 1907 and extended the ban to unions in 1947. The Supreme court rejected a constitutional challenge to a similar state law in 1990 and upheld another law in 2003 prohibiting corporate and union donations of so-called soft money to political parties for organizing activities.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/04/MNR119VTSS.DTL#ixzz0T2AzocUE

There are many loopholes. I like this quote from the Bloomberg article you posted the link to:

“I was rather disappointed in some of the justices’ apparent naivete as to how corporate and union money affects the legislative process,” said Arizona Senator John McCain (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=John+McCain&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), a Republican who sponsored the 2002 law at issue in the case and attended today’s session.

They may not contribute directly to a specific campaign, but both unions and corporations do use their respective funds to support their polical agendas.

[Viva La Migra]

About sounding like a Marxist: okay, I guess so. Yes, I really can agree with the idea about hard work and reward. I just can't seem to get anyone else to agree.
Socialism was tried once before in America and it was a complete failure. I think the stories are well known, but you can read about them here (http://books.google.com/books?id=qf9nq9lFwyQC&pg=PA211&lpg=PA211&dq=socialism+in+plymouth&source=bl&ots=_jM_G89OX4&sig=P43YovMOmIMd_VhRcrsOggy6pIk&hl=en&ei=eAbKSp2vA-mTtgeW6by5AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=socialism%20in%20plymouth&f=false).

Ultimately socialism will not work here, IMHO.

[phil]

Unfortunately, time marches on. The fact that socialism was not successful in the Virginia colony when they were starting up with limited resources probably has no bearing in the modern world. There are many other successful models in modernity and antiquity.

It's about ideologies, I believe.

[Frixxxx]

Unfortunately, time marches on. The fact that socialism was not successful in the Virginia colony when they were starting up with limited resources probably has no bearing in the modern world. There are many other successful models in modernity and antiquity.

It's about ideologies, I believe.
You have just stated the reason that socialism can't make it....when resources run out.....where do you get more? It always seems like "someone" will provide the new technology/resource/money.

Phil, do you even do any homework before you type?:suspicious:

[phil]

Technology marches on. Let's take a look at which countries have won Nobel prizes in the last 40 years. The largest numbers seem to be from countries with some form of socialism.....like Sweden. I could also remind you that it was not a socialist country that launched the first space program, but one that was communist....but that would be waaayyy too cruel. It sure did get our attention, didn't it? Unfortunately, it also saddled us with a tremendous military-industrial complex which has completely spun out of control. See Eisenhower's speech on the matter. It's revealing.

Do your own homework.


You have just stated the reason that socialism can't make it....when resources run out.....where do you get more? It always seems like "someone" will provide the new technology/resource/money.

Phil, do you even do any homework before you type?:suspicious:

[Frixxxx]

Technology marches on. Let's take a look at which countries have won Nobel prizes in the last 40 years. The largest numbers seem to be from countries with some form of socialism.....like Sweden. I could also remind you that it was not a socialist country that launched the first space program, but one that was communist....but that would be waaayyy too cruel. It sure did get our attention, didn't it?

Phil, In the "purest form" of what you preach, socialism & communism have NEVER existed. By the way, U.S.S.R stands for United Soviet Socialist Republic. They bankrupted themselves trying to keep up with Capitalism. I remember watching those "happy" souls waiting in bread lines. However, you still live here in the U.S. When you moving to Sweden or Russia, Serbia, Georgia?

Homework assignment:

Socialism refers to various theories of economic organization advocating public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with a method of compensation based on the amount of labor expended.

Communism is a family of economic and political ideas and social movements related to the establishment of an egalitarian, classless and stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general, as well as the name given to such a society.

Human nature FORBIDS this type of existence......Nature all around is = strongest survives. Even the rogue lion, will risk life or death for a chance at the pride.

If you wanted to get closer to an "economic" model to socialism go for it....But I cannot believe in the third millenium of recorded history, these kinds of ideas are still looked upon as feasible.

[phil]

Homework assignment: check out the socialist countries and progress., as mentioned before. Also, see why Japan's economy has succeeded, despite having such socialist programs like universal healthcare.

On capitalism in its purest form: see what happened in the 1930's in the pure capitalist countries, and why social programs rescued the capitalist system in the US under Roosevelt.

For extra credit, find out how the former Soviet Union, not a socialist state as you say, was able to have a full space program, despite having lost a tremendous amount of industrial capacity (and population) by fighting about 80% of the war against Facism. Why were they able to beggar us and our economy, even today? We're spending more than ever now, even though they, as you say, have collapsed.

The Social Darwinists have come and gone, by the way. Many, many years ago.


Phil, In the "purest form" of what you preach, socialism & communism have NEVER existed. By the way, U.S.S.R stands for United Soviet Socialist Republic. They bankrupted themselves trying to keep up with Capitalism. I remember watching those "happy" souls waiting in bread lines. However, you still live here in the U.S. When you moving to Sweden or Russia, Serbia, Georgia?

Homework assignment:

Socialism refers to various theories of economic organization advocating public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with a method of compensation based on the amount of labor expended.

Communism is a family of economic and political ideas and social movements related to the establishment of an egalitarian, classless and stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general, as well as the name given to such a society.

Human nature FORBIDS this type of existence......Nature all around is = strongest survives. Even the rogue lion, will risk life or death for a chance at the pride.

If you wanted to get closer to an "economic" model to socialism go for it....But I cannot believe in the third millenium of recorded history, these kinds of ideas are still looked upon as feasible.

[tsptalk]

Also, see why Japan's economy has succeeded, despite having such socialist programs like universal healthcare.
Define "succeeded".

http://www.tsptalk.com/images/mb/100509a.gif

[James48843]

Define "succeeded".




Well, an unemployment rate of less than 4% beats my state's unemployment rate of 15.2%....

http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/handbook/img/fig12_7.gif

[James48843]

Japan's tax revenue as a percentage of GDP is pretty good....

http://www.japanreview.net/images/Tax_revenue_to_GDP.gif

[Frixxxx]

On capitalism in its purest form: see what happened in the 1930's in the pure capitalist countries, and why social programs rescued the capitalist system in the US under Roosevelt.

Phil, capitalism is designed to have those twists and turns. You have yet to accept the fact that capitalism is the better choice....I have refrained from ever saying "perfect" system simply because there is none. But the social programs you talk about that "saved" us are not that at all....

Social programs are where entreprenurial endeavors do not exist or are not executed properly. If the government would have stayed out of the economy, maybe we wouldn't have a bankrupt Social Security or unregulated Medicare.

Oops, sorry for mentioning those pesky social programs.

Please Phil, you are out of your league on this one, Facism?

And when did I say collapse? I said they don't exist in there pure form. The reasons as I have stated:

1. Human Nature and the "evil side" power.
2. Absolute Power corrupts absolutely.

Individuals have taken their "equality" and forced others to submit blindly and then have to "fight" their way out.

Our government was "designed" not to give power to one aspect of it. Hence the 3 divisions. When "we the people" forget that the separation exists for the sole purpose of balance, THAT is when corruption starts.

So, to "equally" balance economy and government, you need an economy that will be as fluid as the government.

And the 1930's? That really started in the Twenty's, well that alone should have been a lesson for the citizens of the US to ensure that they did not repeat the mistakes from them. So, blame that on education rather than government. "For those who forget history, are doomed to repeat it!"

Good night Phil! Remember that it is "a government, by the people, for the people" that I really want, but I can't seem to get people to vote that way. Oh wait, but I can get an organization to FAKE all the votes I need (Back on Topic):cool:

[James48843]

Japan's GDP growth has done pretty well too, except for that bad period between 1940 and 1950 or so.....


http://benmuse.typepad.com/ben_muse/images/japan_gdp_growth.jpg

[phil]

Well, you haven't really answered any of the questions. What we actually have is not really the capitalism of the 1930's at all, is it? The Social Darwinists have all passed away.....or so I thought until now.

But how was it that the former Soviets were able to frighten us and the rest of the world so badly? We've exhausted ourselves, now we're starting to eat away at ourselves. What a shame. They actually predicted this would happen as inevitable.

What eventually brought the Soviet system down was their having to misallocate so very much of their resources to non-productive areas in their economy. It doesn't change the fact that they had some tremendous successes in their part of the world. Liberation of women in communist countries occured in both the larger soviet state and in China. That was social and economic freedom. We look at it now in a different way, but they really had a period of economic and social progress that we had to catch up with. They did this, by the way, after losing tremendous numbers of people during the bloodiest war in history. They fought over 80% of the war with the Germans, not us.

We could bring up the fact that we were the first to build nuclear weapons. Too bad that many of the scientists who built it were much further to the left than I am.

Soviet women, by the way, had much more in the way of real freedoms than our own women for many, many years. While we were struggling with Jim Crow laws, they had succeeded in building up and liberating many parts of central asia, and particularly succeeded in liberating women in these areas.

I guess we're still working on it. If you get the chance, take a look at Michael Moore's new film.

Back on topic on ACORN: Let's just use the same criteria on ALL government contractors. Let the good times roll, I say.


Phil, capitalism is designed to have those twists and turns. You have yet to accept the fact that capitalism is the better choice....I have refrained from ever saying "perfect" system simply because there is none. But the social programs you talk about that "saved" us are not that at all...
Social programs are where entreprenurial endeavors do not exist or are not executed properly. If the government would have stayed out of the economy, maybe we wouldn't have a bankrupt Social Security or unregulated Medicare.

Oops, sorry for mentioning those pesky social programs.

Please Phil, you are out of your league on this one, Facism?

And when did I say collapse? I said they don't exist in there pure form. The reasons as I have stated:

1. Human Nature and the "evil side" power.
2. Absolute Power corrupts absolutely.

Individuals have taken their "equality" and forced others to submit blindly and then have to "fight" their way out.

Our government was "designed" not to give power to one aspect of it. Hence the 3 divisions. When "we the people" forget that the separation exists for the sole purpose of balance, THAT is when corruption starts.

So, to "equally" balance economy and government, you need an economy that will be as fluid as the government.

And the 1930's? That really started in the Twenty's, well that alone should have been a lesson for the citizens of the US to ensure that they did not repeat the mistakes from them. So, blame that on education rather than government. "For those who forget history, are doomed to repeat it!"

Good night Phil! Remember that it is "a government, by the people, for the people" that I really want, but I can't seem to get people to vote that way. Oh wait, but I can get an organization to FAKE all the votes I need (Back on Topic):cool:

[James48843]

... Liberation of women in communist countries occured in both the larger soviet state and in China. That was social and economic freedom.


Ok Phil- I give up. Where on earth did you come up with those ideas?

Are you an NYU guy, or what? Never served in the military, I take it, and never spent much time overseas? Never met any actual people who lived under such rule as the former eastern bloc nations in their own land, I presume.

Just curious.

Your depiction is so far off reality, even I have to take a breath or two, and I consider myself left of center on some things.....

[Show-me]

Ok Phil- I give up. Where on earth did you come up with those ideas?

Are you an NYU guy, or what? Never served in the military, I take it, and never spent much time overseas? Never met any actual people who lived under such rule as the former eastern bloc nations in their own land, I presume.

Just curious.

Your depiction is so far off reality, even I have to take a breath or two, and I consider myself left of center on some things.....

You're giving up NOW? I think not! School the lad, please!:D

[phil]

Since you ask, I'm a former Marine officer. I grew up on a small farm in Georgia, this hemishpere.

Lived overseas about 20 years now.

My observations are very real. Just look at some of the fact books for these countries. You'll discover very high female literacy rates, and employment.

The North Vietnamese used women in their military establishment. They weren't hobbled by their ideology.

[CountryBoy]

Since you ask, I'm a former Marine officer. I grew up on a small farm in Georgia, this hemishpere.

Lived overseas about 20 years now.

My observations are very real. Just look at some of the fact books for these countries. You'll discover very high female literacy rates, and employment.

The North Vietnamese used women in their military establishment. They weren't hobbled by their ideology.

Yeah me too. :laugh: This is the fricking internet.

CB

[coolhand]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/10/06/ag-acorn-embezzlement-totaled-m-m/

[WorkFE]

Peanuts compared to our governments embezzlement, I mean stimulas plan.:D

[Frixxxx]

I am not quite sure why a retired marine officer who has been living overseas for the passed twenty years CARES about Acorn or the economy of the US.

WTF?

Please, if you want to debate the freedoms/economic status you fought for and then give it up to live in an economy of your choosing then fine. Open a new thread, renounce your US citizenship and debate from perspective of the country you now live in.

Otherwise, Please debate the thread topic and the corruption that is now a CRIMINAL case and not conjecture.

Phil, I believe that somewhere along the way you have forgotten what the freedoms of The United States of America are and what they mean to the population who love this country dearly.

I'm done until then with you.:notrust:

[Viva La Migra]

The North Vietnamese used women in their military establishment. They weren't hobbled by their ideology.
They also used children in their military, if I remember my history correctly. Is that an example we should follow as well?

[phil]

Noted. So, when did you go through TBS?

Yeah me too. :laugh: This is the fricking internet.

CB

[phil]

We did already.

They also used children in their military, if I remember my history correctly. Is that an example we should follow as well?

[CountryBoy]

Noted. So, when did you go through TBS?

And again anyone can say they went thru Basic. ;)

CB

[Frixxxx]

And again anyone can say they went thru Basic. ;)

CB
Hey CB,

Try and put this one on ignore.

I reviewed his (phil) posts since his membership. Out of the 147 (at the time I type this) 5 (3%) actually commented on his investments in TSP or his strategy.

The rest have been in Miscellaneous with very little depth or facts.

I believe this person never came here to particpate as a TSP investor first, but as an instigator in debating from the absurd.

Moderators, please take note as it almost seems like harassment in any thread this member posts.

[CountryBoy]

Hey CB,

Try and put this one on ignore.

I reviewed his (phil) posts since his membership. Out of the 147 (at the time I type this) 5 (3%) actually commented on his investments in TSP or his strategy.

The rest have been in Miscellaneous with very little depth or facts.

I believe this person never came here to particpate as a TSP investor first, but as an instigator in debating from the absurd.

Moderators, please take note as it almost seems like harassment in any thread this member posts.

Your 100% right Frixxx,

I've be ignoring his socialist comments for as long as possible, but I finally rose to the bait like some largemouth. :o But I could swear he is the guy who sits in the cubicle next to me at work. They sound so much alike. :laugh:

Back to my cubby, :D

CB

[tsptalk]

Moderators, please take note as it almost seems like harassment in any thread this member posts.
I think you had the best idea - If you don't want to deal with phil, use the ignore feature. He has certainly stimulated conversation and he got our attention when he first started posting, but while I don't agree with much of what he says either, he is allowed to say it. As long as he stays civil, doesn't break the rules, keeps his political views in the political threads, isn't overly disruptive, and doesn't go too far*, he is welcome here - and that goes for everyone.

I think that is the strength of this board. We have had some very controversial discussions over the years, yet they have remained quite civil and for the most part, people have treated others with respect, and I appreciate that. That's rare in a public forum. Thanks everyone for that!

* We had to ask a few members over the years to refrain from calling our current and prior presidents nasty words, or making controversial analogies. :)

[Viva La Migra]

We did already.
Really? Pray tell. When did we strap bombs to small children and have them run into the arms of unsuspecting soldiers and blow them both up?

[Viva La Migra]

I think you had the best idea - If you don't want to deal with phil, use the ignore feature. He has certainly stimulated conversation and he got our attention when he first started posting, but while I don't agree with much of what he says either, he is allowed to say it. As long as he stays civil, doesn't break the rules, keeps his political views in the political threads, isn't overly disruptive, and doesn't go too far*, he is welcome here - and that goes for everyone.

I think that is the strength of this board. We have had some very controversial discussions over the years, yet they have remained quite civil and for the most part, people have treated others with respect, and I appreciate that. That's rare in a public forum. Thanks everyone for that!

* We had to ask a few members over the years to refrain from calling our current and prior presidents nasty words, or making controversial analogies. :)
I agree with you Tom. I like good robust debate. Phil, Dr. Scooter, and our other left leaning friends are welcome to express their wrong headed opinions all they want!:toung: I will not, except for my personal entertainment, use their naivete and lack of wisdom against them.:blink:

[phil]

We've used them in both Revolutionary and Civil wars. Both sides. And as far as this type of warfare, unfortunately many terrorist/insurgency groups don't have B-1 bombers to drop bombs on civilians (some of whom are women and children), so they're left to use what they have to.

Sigh. Unfortunately, you think what I'm saying is wrong. Regrettably, it's not.

Really? Pray tell. When did we strap bombs to small children and have them run into the arms of unsuspecting soldiers and blow them both up?

[Viva La Migra]

We've used them in both Revolutionary and Civil wars. Both sides. And as far as this type of warfare, unfortunately many terrorist/insurgency groups don't have B-1 bombers to drop bombs on civilians (some of whom are women and children), so they're left to use what they have to.

Sigh. Unfortunately, you think what I'm saying is wrong. Regrettably, it's not.
Do you have a reliable source of information on the use of children as suicide bombers during the Revolutionary and Civil wars? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't believe we used suicide bombers during those wars.

It never ceases to amaze me how liberals will make excuses for the terrorists and their use of women and children for human shields or pawns of propaganda, but decry the United States as some evil empire if it hits a terrorist hideout that has women and children as human shields.

[phil]

We used them in the capacity of combatants. In the civil war, both sides used them in that capacity, in harm's way. The point is, these groups don't have B-1 bombers to drop bombs on civilians, so they use what they can. The Taliban are crippled ideologically, since they don't use women in the combatant role.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_soldiers shows that the US government at the time used minors in pursuing the civil war in the US. The Taliban are recruiting more people in Afghanistan for one reason: the presence of foreign troops in the country.

Yes, we decry the deaths of innocent women and children, we "liberals". In Laos, we killed over 900,000 people in that tiny country. Try going to the national museum in Vientiane some day and see how they look at us.

Do you have a reliable source of information on the use of children as suicide bombers during the Revolutionary and Civil wars? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't believe we used suicide bombers during those wars.

It never ceases to amaze me how liberals will make excuses for the terrorists and their use of women and children for human shields or pawns of propaganda, but decry the United States as some evil empire if it hits a terrorist hideout that has women and children as human shields.

[grandma]

Wording in school texts on history started being changed 50 years ago - or more. It is amazing what that does to end up with the grandchildren telling the Senior members of the family that we've got it all wrong.... -disremembering? Anyway, I don't trust much of what those <40 have to say about `and that's the way it was...'

A note on ACORN's troubles -
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/15463

[Viva La Migra]

We used them in the capacity of combatants. In the civil war, both sides used them in that capacity, in harm's way. The point is, these groups don't have B-1 bombers to drop bombs on civilians, so they use what they can. The Taliban are crippled ideologically, since they don't use women in the combatant role.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_soldiers shows that the US government at the time used minors in pursuing the civil war in the US. The Taliban are recruiting more people in Afghanistan for one reason: the presence of foreign troops in the country.

Yes, we decry the deaths of innocent women and children, we "liberals". In Laos, we killed over 900,000 people in that tiny country. Try going to the national museum in Vientiane some day and see how they look at us.
Thank you for the Wikipedia link. Now, if you could just find a RELIABLE source of information, I would appreciate it.

Don't get me wrong, conservatives are saddened whenever innocent women and children are killed. The difference between liberals and conservatives is that conservatives pray for forgiveness and for the souls of the dead, as opposed to liberals liberals who curse the country, the soldiers, and use the dead for their own political ambitions.

[James48843]

Thank you for the Wikipedia link. Now, if you could just find a RELIABLE source of information, I would appreciate it.

Ever hear of the Veterans Of Underage Service Association? http://www.oldvums.org/



Don't get me wrong, conservatives are saddened whenever innocent women and children are killed. The difference between liberals and conservatives is that conservatives pray for forgiveness and for the souls of the dead, as opposed to liberals liberals who curse the country, the soldiers, and use the dead for their own political ambitions.

Liberals also pray for forgiveness, and for the souls of the dead. And for the end of the war. And for enlightenment for the political leaders.

[James48843]

Marine PFC Jack Lucus was awarded the Medal of Honor for action on Iwo Jima in 1945 . Lucus was 17 years old at the time, having joined the Marines 3 years earlier at age 14.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Indestructible/Jack-Lucas/e/9780306814709

Good book. Nice read.

[alevin]

My great great grandfather lied about his age (16-17), enlisted for Spanish-American war. By the time he got kitted out, the war was over. Brandspanking new uniform handed down in the family along with the story.

[phil]

Gee buddy, just look at any other reliable source, maybe conservapedia or Fox News. They'll tell you what to think. You might have to wait awhile, conservapedia has to find the right editors.

The one book that I can always recommend to everyone is Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent". That one is on my shelf.


Thank you for the Wikipedia link. Now, if you could just find a RELIABLE source of information, I would appreciate it.

Don't get me wrong, conservatives are saddened whenever innocent women and children are killed. The difference between liberals and conservatives is that conservatives pray for forgiveness and for the souls ofe dead, as opposed to liberals liberals who curse the country, the soldiers, and use the dead for their own political ambitions.

[Viva La Migra]

Ever hear of the Veterans Of Underage Service Association? http://www.oldvums.org/





Liberals also pray for forgiveness, and for the souls of the dead. And for the end of the war. And for enlightenment for the political leaders.
Thank you for the link. I think the key there is that these young people had fraudulently enlisted. It doesn't appear to me that any of these young men were pressed into service, which was my point. Phil is arguing that the United States military has regularly used children in combat the same way that Vietnam did.

It may be a matter of definition. I'm thinking of toddlers to preteens and Phil seems to be thinking of teenagers. I know that preteens and teenagers join gangs and do some pretty violent things, so it wouldn't surprise me that they would join the military in a time of war. What I would be surprised to find out, is that we FORCED children to perform military service.

I'm glad to hear some liberals still pray. I thought they had "progressed" past religion. At least you'd think so the way they attack religious symbols on government property.

[tsptalk]

The one book that I can always recommend to everyone is Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent". That one is on my shelf.
Chomsky is a pretty radical dude. Sorry if this was asked already, but do you consider yourself a socialist, Marxist, communist, other?

[Viva La Migra]

Gee buddy, just look at any other reliable source, maybe conservapedia or Fox News. They'll tell you what to think. You might have to wait awhile, conservapedia has to find the right editors.

The one book that I can always recommend to everyone is Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent". That one is on my shelf.
Do you have that next to a copy of "Rules for Radicals"?

Wikipedia is not the most accurate source of information. See my response to James48843. I think we may be thinking of different definitions of the word "children" as it relates to our topic of discussion.

Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Roger Hedgecock, Sean Hannity, etc, do not tell me how to think. My views are my own and they do not always jive with my more conservative friends. I consider myself a moderate conservative, someone who leans to the right, but not so far that I don't see other points of view.

[Steadygain]

ACORN ....

Led Zepplin had a beautiful song that went:

"I'm going to California with an achen' in my heart .... la la la la..."


Well when the song first came out and I just sang what it sounded like to me .... I seriously thought he was singn'

"I'm going to California with an 'acorn' in my heart" ... and it didn't make any difference to me whether it made any sence or not..


Some how I felt everyone was 'needing to know that'

Good Night All

[James48843]

... I think we may be thinking of different definitions of the word "children" as it relates to our topic of discussion.
.
I think what Phil was referring to was the position that anyone under the age of 18 used for military service becomes "using children". That position is espoused by a large number of nation states today- whereas it wasn't always that way. Indeed- today a 17 year old can join the U.S. Army, but policy prevents them from deployed outside the U.S. until after their 18th birthday. Sometimes we have had a problem with that policy.

The United Nations protocol (Convention on the Rights of the Child ) (http://www.sx.ac.uk/armedcon/News%20Folder/Future/2000News/Breaking/protocol002.htm) passed in 2002 prohibits the use of those under age 18 from participating in armed conflict. The United States Senate ratified the Convention, so it IS applicable to us. However, critics point out that the United States has violated that UN protocol (http://www.aclu.org/pdfs/humanrights/crc_report_20080513.pdf)to this day.

Child soldier- anyone under 18. Under the Convetion, that includes what we continue to do today- recruit minors.

[phil]

Indeed we are in violation. Is it that we are unable to fight our wars without recruiting people under the age of 18? That's just too bizarre, recruiting child soldiers.

On recruiting child soldiers:
We blame terrorist groups, but some of these groups have been under much much more stress from the governments they've been fighting. Most of these don't have conventional forces, exceptions being the Tigers in Sri Lanka (they had a navy also), the Maoists in Sri Lanka, Shining Path in Peru and the contras in Nicaragua. Many use a combination of suicide bombers and conventional forces, like the Viet Cong in Vietnam.

These groups sometimes have valid reasons to exist, I believe. Examine what happened in former Yugoslavia. A better example is the Irish Revolt about 90 years ago. There, we ended up supporting them when they were forming a nation. They would be seen as terrorists today. Hey, the Brits still call them that.

We can't just lump every armed group as terrorists, without understanding how they got there. In Afghanistan, many people join the insurgency because they don't like the current government, or the fact that we have troops in their country.

Understanding is the key to winning the conflict. Jingoistic platitudes just work on our own people.

[Viva La Migra]

Indeed we are in violation. Is it that we are unable to fight our wars without recruiting people under the age of 18? That's just too bizarre, recruiting child soldiers.

On recruiting child soldiers:
We blame terrorist groups, but some of these groups have been under much much more stress from the governments they've been fighting. Most of these don't have conventional forces, exceptions being the Tigers in Sri Lanka (they had a navy also), the Maoists in Sri Lanka, Shining Path in Peru and the contras in Nicaragua. Many use a combination of suicide bombers and conventional forces, like the Viet Cong in Vietnam.

These groups sometimes have valid reasons to exist, I believe. Examine what happened in former Yugoslavia. A better example is the Irish Revolt about 90 years ago. There, we ended up supporting them when they were forming a nation. They would be seen as terrorists today. Hey, the Brits still call them that.

We can't just lump every armed group as terrorists, without understanding how they got there. In Afghanistan, many people join the insurgency because they don't like the current government, or the fact that we have troops in their country.

Understanding is the key to winning the conflict. Jingoistic platitudes just work on our own people.
I was seventeen when I joined the Army, and turned eighteen in basic training. My Drill Sergeant's birthday gift to me was KP duty. It turned out to be a pretty good day, because I ended up making out in a broom closet with a female recruit that was also on KP duty!:nuts: Fun times...fun times.

I'll be honest with you, if we were ever to face a "Red Dawn" type of scenario and all I had was kids to help me fight the enemy off, you can bet I'd give those willing to fight weapons and teach them how to use them. What I wouldn't do, is strap bombs to them and tell them to give the enemy a hug and then blow them up! That's just not cool with me.

[coolhand]

Strange bedfellows just keep popping up. :rolleyes:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704107204574471393545371128.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

[CountryBoy]

Strange bedfellows just keep popping up. :rolleyes:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704107204574471393545371128.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

This is no suprise at all. Chicago politics. They don't even attempt to hide the corruption or the contempt they have for the American people. :mad:

CB

[coolhand]

This is no suprise at all. Chicago politics. They don't even attempt to hide the corruption or the contempt they have for the American people. :mad:

CB

I said the same thing. You just didn't sugarcoat it. :laugh:

[CountryBoy]

I said the same thing. You just didn't sugarcoat it. :laugh:

I've never been accused of being subtle or diplomatic. :D My wife also said I learned to whisper in a sawmill. :nuts:

[coolhand]

For those of you who like to cite wikepedia as your source (this goes for anyone actually)...beware.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyharnden/100013647/the-rush-limbaugh-media-lynch-mob/#

[Frixxxx]

I've never been accused of being subtle or diplomatic. :D My wife also said I learned to whisper in a sawmill. :nuts:
Cowboys always shoot from the hip....:cool:

[CountryBoy]

For those of you who like to cite wikepedia as your source (this goes for anyone actually)...beware.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyharnden/100013647/the-rush-limbaugh-media-lynch-mob/#

Yep and heading the lynch mob is Al “Tawana Brawley” Sharpton and The Reverend Jesse “Hymie Town” Jackson, the shakedown artist, who both were quick to fly down to North Carolina and declare the quilt of the Duke Lacrosse team, but have failed to yet apologized for their slanderous accusations. Paragons of the truth? And these are men of the cloth? :laugh:

And of course a foreign paper reports the truth, while our obamaton msm, just swallow the lies hook, line and sinker. They are failing in their duty to report the truth. So much for verifying sources.

[grandma]

For those of you who like to cite wikepedia as your source (this goes for anyone actually)...beware.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyharnden/100013647/the-rush-limbaugh-media-lynch-mob/#
Several years ago I was told anyone can change any item/article placed in Wikepedia....that they require very little verification of even who you are to be making any changes. That is one reason I have questions about any info in any list that has `wiki' in its name.

[Frixxxx]

Several years ago I was told anyone can change any item/article placed in Wikepedia....that they require very little verification of even who you are to be making any changes. That is one reason I have questions about any info in any list that has `wiki' in its name.
Grandma is the SMARTEST person I know:D. Last time I checked, most printed works weren't valid unless the had a few trusted/viable references in the footnotes.

I use wiki as a springboard to drill down into the facts. If I can review back a few degrees of seperation to the facts then I'll take it under consideration. If I get bogus junk the first few steps in..I'll wipe the crud off my shoes and look elsewhere.:cool:

[CountryBoy]

Cowboys always shoot from the hip....:cool:

As long as they don't shoot themselves in the foot. :D

CB

[mayday]

The real story about ACORN and the Community Reinvestment Act, and the mess we are in now. Long read but very educational.

http://tinyurl.com/5wdbpr

[coolhand]

I'm sure they're just really nice people. They're just misunderstood...:rolleyes:

http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/23/breaking-san-diego-acorn-document-dump-scandal/

[Birchtree]

Those were both great reads - with so much corruption evident in the election process maybe there should be an impeachment and a redo of the national election. There is a reason there is an ammo shortage. The WASPs are getting anxious while their country is being destroyed.

[FAB1]

The real story about ACORN and the Community Reinvestment Act, and the mess we are in now. Long read but very educational.

http://tinyurl.com/5wdbpr

Fab article! oh yeah thanks alot mr. Boosh...(sarc)

"It will take a Republican president to change or abolish CRA, so firmly wedded to it is the Clinton administration and so powerfully does it serve Democratic Party interests"

And lest we forget - this CRA is STILL alive and well today, is it not?
Crazy man, crazy.

[phil]

What's really bizarre about all of this is two things:

I really haven't seen any numbers associated with this.

There's absolutely no mention in any reputable publication about CRA creating the financial crisis. It just seems like an attempt to blame poor people for Wall Street's and wealthy decision-makers absolute folly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932009#Predatory_le nding

Got another one?

[mick504]

I had several good articles saved...but subsequently deleted them regarding the CRA and it's push by the dems in making loans to indigents....basically but here's one article I just came across on the subject. There are many articles on that subject.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Dems-push-expanded-Community-Reinvestment-Act-dismiss-evidence-that-CRA-contributed-to-financial-meltdown-Republicans-cite-ACORN-connection-59501737.html

[FAB1]

Politicians will destroy the ecomony to buy them votes.

Makes perfect sense to me - :nuts::blink::nuts::blink:

IF we need more wiki quotes:

U.S. Representative Eddie Bernice Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Bernice_Johnson) introduced new legislation, (Community Reinvestment Modernization Act of 2009 (http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.uscongress/legislation.111hr1479)), in Congress on March 12, 2009 to expand the scope of CRA to include non-bank financial institutions, such as credit unions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_union).[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act#cite_note-CRA_2009-76)[78] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act#cite_note-77) There were other attempts to legislatively "modernize" the Community Reivestment Act in previous sessions of Congress; more notably the bills in 2000 (http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.uscongress/legislation.106hr4893) / 2001 (http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.uscongress/legislation.107hr865) and 2007 (http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.uscongress/legislation.110hr1289) among others.

thats spelled EXPAND folks...

[SkyPilot]

I've never been accused of being subtle or diplomatic. :D My wife also said I learned to whisper in a sawmill. :nuts:

:D !

[FAB1]

Also on wiki:

Some economists, politicians and other commentators have charged that the CRA contributed in part to the 2008 financial crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_financial_crisis) by encouraging banks to make unsafe loans. Others however, including the economists from the Federal Reserve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve) and the FDIC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FDIC), dispute this contention. The Federal Reserve and the FDIC holds that empirical research has not validated any relationship between the CRA and the 2008 financial crisis

Thanks goodness all the worthless "A1" Securites, defaulted mortgages, and empty ransacked homes are all figgermentations of our imaginganations. :rolleyes: -who can argue with the FedRev?

[tsptalk]

Eric Holder Won’t Investigate His Radical Friends at ACORN (http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/30/eric-holder-wont-investigate-his-radical-friends-at-acorn/)

"Attorney General Eric Holder has made it abundantly clear he has absolutely no interest in investigating his radical friends at ACORN." More (http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/30/eric-holder-wont-investigate-his-radical-friends-at-acorn/)

[nnuut]

Eric Holder Won’t Investigate His Radical Friends at ACORN (http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/30/eric-holder-wont-investigate-his-radical-friends-at-acorn/)

"Attorney General Eric Holder has made it abundantly clear he has absolutely no interest in investigating his radical friends at ACORN." More (http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/30/eric-holder-wont-investigate-his-radical-friends-at-acorn/)
Mr. Holder was chosen very carefully, he's doing what he was hired to do.:suspicious:

[Viva La Migra]

Eric Holder Won’t Investigate His Radical Friends at ACORN (http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/30/eric-holder-wont-investigate-his-radical-friends-at-acorn/)

"Attorney General Eric Holder has made it abundantly clear he has absolutely no interest in investigating his radical friends at ACORN." More (http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/30/eric-holder-wont-investigate-his-radical-friends-at-acorn/)
Of course not. He's too busy going after real criminals, like the CIA Agents that protect us from the terrorists. Corruption, racketeering and election fraud are nothing compared to putting enemy combatants through the same waterboard training our fighter pilots go through.

[grandma]

deleted a cartoon,
t'was bigger'n the monitor screen !!!

[phil]

Yes, Capital Research Center.

Here's another one of Mr. Vadum's causes:

http://www.capitalresearch.org/news/news.html?id=745

Catholic Campaign for Human Development Is Conning Conservatives

Pardon me, that seems a bit extreme.

[phil]

Back to Acorn. Someone's going to prison for a looong time. I guess he just misses being able to bug the phones legally from the former administration's time.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20100126/pl_politico/32035

[Viva La Migra]

Back to Acorn. Someone's going to prison for a looong time. I guess he just misses being able to bug the phones legally from the former administration's time.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20100126/pl_politico/32035
What happened to someone being innocent until proven guilty, Phil? I guess that only applies to radical leftists and muslim extremists.

If it turns out he is guilty, the he should be duly sentenced. I wouldn't be at all surprised of AG Holder gets the two "phone repairmen" to implicate O'Keefe even if he isn't actually involved. This just smells like a setup to me.

[phil]

He wasn't innocent (by his own admission) in the acorn filming, and may have to face charges. As far as his guilt, I think they have them on video. The plot thickens.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/26/AR2010012604145.html?wprss=rss_politics

What happened to someone being innocent until proven guilty, Phil? I guess that only applies to radical leftists and muslim extremists.

If it turns out he is guilty, the he should be duly sentenced. I wouldn't be at all surprised of AG Holder gets the two "phone repairmen" to implicate O'Keefe even if he isn't actually involved. This just smells like a setup to me.

[Viva La Migra]

He wasn't innocent (by his own admission) in the acorn filming, and may have to face charges. As far as his guilt, I think they have them on video. The plot thickens.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/26/AR2010012604145.html?wprss=rss_politics
I'll wait for the jury to give it's verdict. If what is alleged is true, then he'll probably do some time. I wouldn't expect AG Holder to dismiss the charges like he did against the Black Panthers.

[phil]

Maybe instead he should investigate the former administration for obstruction of justice.

[Viva La Migra]

Maybe instead he should investigate the former administration for obstruction of justice.
How about in addition to? While he's at it, he can investigate the entire Congress and find out what they knew and when they were briefed on some of the things you like to rage about, like the enhanced interrogation program. That'd be a hoot!:D

I wonder why they haven't done that!:suspicious:

[phil]

He should.
From Panetta:

In that spirit, on June 24, I briefed the intelligence oversight committees of Congress on a highly classified program that had been brought to my attention the day before. Never fully operational, the program had not, in seven years, taken a single terrorist off the street, and information about it had not been shared appropriately with Congress. For me, this was more than just a simple question of law or legal requirements. Rather, it was a reflection of my firm belief that a straightforward and honest partnership with Congress can build support for intelligence. That's what I want, and I am convinced it's what our nation needs.

https://www.cia.gov/news-information/press-releases-statements/congress-and-the-cia-time-to-move-on.html