Politics in General

[Steadygain]

First I think it's wonderful to have a 'Politics' Thread. Thank you!!

Politics in general is so hugely limited to our own little Time Span -that we can't help but believe life as we have known it is 'the Norm' and subsequently everything compared to that is 'Abnormal'.

We totally lack the capacity of realizing how the 'Present' is but a very recent change over thousands and thousands of years and how other periods of history would have been regarded as equally normal.

Through TIME have been numerous TRANSISTIONS - many of which have completely changed world dynamics and the way Nations interact with one another.

Perhaps the most challenging part of the Political World is the true recognization of how new our country is and how powerful it has become in just a few hundred years. No matter what the 'Founding Principles' were - we have rapidly evolved into the Greatest Industrial Nation on Earth and are the one and only True Super Power - as Russia has long since collapsed.

How have we become so powerful - and how do we maintain such enormous World Dominance? It is largely by the resources we have obtained and utilized and here it is extremely important to realize that many of these resources are outside of our borders. So when we think of the USA as a 'Great and Powerful' country we have to remember that the Soil, Resources, and Labor of almost every other part of the world makes this possible.

As 'we have evolved' into a Stronger Country the Industries and Corporations that took on the greatest prominence - all the more took on the overwhelming bulk of Power and Control. Over time it is mostly - these Money Making - powerful Industries and Companies that POLITICS was grounded in and by which they are upheld and supported.

What may have started out as 'By the People and For the People' has largely been replaced by Corporate Interests and the general population is mainly in place to support those interests. This is why Health Care is based on Insurance Companies and largely geared towards the Pharmaceutical Industry and Medical Companies. Yet even with both solidly in place - the level of care anyone gets is based on what they deem is 'financially acceptable' and not what is 'medically appropriate'. This same thought could be carried over to many other sectors of life... and so it goes.

We are conditioned to believe that one Party does things this way and another Party does things another way - and somehow we honestly are convinced that this 'Person' or 'That' is going to make a difference.

Rarely does anyone take the time to evaluate the increasing Growth of the Federal Goverment throughout the years. The many layers that have been formed and both the depth and width by which they have expanded. With each administration it has essentially gotten bigger and bigger and this has resulted in increasing MARKED complexity and Enormous Inefficiency. The lastest Bush Administration held the all time 'Record High' - but I seriously doubt it has reduced in even the slightest degree with Obama. But rarely does anyone take into account THESE IMPORTANT UNDERLYING FACTS - and these are inescapable.

The Machinery in place - the many wheels that spin off one another are perhaps the most important part of the overall picture.

So with Politics - American Politics (as we refer to the USA) - there is absolutely no doubt that many changes have to occur for our Nation to run more appropriately - and to ultimately change the balance more towards the People and Less towards the Industries.

Thanks for listening.....

[Steadygain]

It is absolutely impossible to understand the Politics of the USA without first knowing the Major Events that Created…
…who and what this Nation is
…and how we became what we presently are – especially in our Relationship with all other Nations.

For this is what Politics is all about. I share this to emphasize that our present Congress has little to do with the huge mess we are in and given the same historical circumstances - with same Government System 'a change of politicians' would not make any difference as 'Politicians are pretty much all alike'.

We enjoyed a period of global dominance for the past few centuries. But that dominance is now in marked decline. In our grounding over the past few hundred years there was little need or incentive to take alternative worldviews seriously, since Western values, customs, and ideas seemed so obviously set to dominate the world. The outlooks of Muslims, Chinese, and Hindus were like outdated stuff meant for museums; that were trivial and insignificant and almost laughable.

Only with this deeply entrenched ‘National Thought’ can anyone appreciate where we are today and how the ‘Founding Years’ of Global Dominance were very significant and would undoubtedly convince the population it’s trend would endure forever.

In 1920 – 48.1% (almost half) of the world’s population was under the political control of Western governments.
In 1928 - 84.2% of all manufactured goods in the world were produced by the USA

Now as this century is underway – the empires are gone and the population of the Western countries is 12.5% (about 1/8).
By 1980 we were down to 57.8% of manufactured goods and the decline has continued.

None of this makes any difference however unless it is contrasted to ‘Communism’ – in particular Russia; which our Nation hugely projected as the opposite of us. Where we were peaceful citizens out to protect things within our own boundaries – they were evil and war wagging and constantly looking to devour any property outside their borders regardless of who lived there. They were out to ‘rob’ where we were out to ‘extend kindness and acceptance’….

Over and over – this was the grounding we were all deeply convicted of as ‘Truth’

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/kennedys/transcript/ (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/kennedys/transcript/)

Only with this Backdrop – can anyone really appreciate how things came into being.

Enter JFK – Where everything changed and ever since it’s like a huge carpet that continues to be steadily rolling out. Shortly after his election, Kennedy had been told of a secret CIA plan to send an army to overthrow Fidel Castro and rid the western hemisphere of its first Communist regime.

Kennedy saw this as an opportunity to gain a huge Victory in the Cold War against Russia.
Some advisers argued that even a successful invasion would brand the United States an aggressor and risk Soviet retaliation. Hmm may have been very good advise…but the CIA and Joint Chiefs assured Kennedy the invasion would succeed without revealing United States participation.

We can call this 'What goes around – comes around. KARMA'
Kennedy gave the go-ahead for a landing at the Bay of Pigs to have Castro assassinated. But everything went wrong. When the landing foundered, Kennedy, fearful of revealing American involvement, refused to provide air support. 1,189 men were captured, 114 were killed.

He tried to assassinate another leader and got assassinated himself.

The Bay of Pigs had been a humiliating failure. Behind the scenes, Kennedy was furious.

Now, he brought his brother (Robert) in to continue the effort to overthrow Castro. He was put in charge of a new clandestine plan, Operation Mongoose. “Ousting Castro is the top priority of the United States government,” he said. He ordered hit-and-run raids, destruction of roads and bridges, sabotage.

He tried to assassinate another leader and got assassinated himself.

At the same time, the CIA was using mobsters, including Sam Giancana and Johnny Rosselli, in a plot to assassinate Castro. This strange alliance had begun during the Eisenhower administration and continued unbroken through the Kennedy years. Kennedy clearly wanted the Cuban leader eliminated.
The President very much wants to have a certain individual “immobilized” and isn’t— doesn’t care too much how that is done. When Robert Kennedy learned the CIA had hired the Mafia to kill Castro, he protested the means, but not the ends. Assassination plots continued.

Cold War - Russia is looking better and the USA is looking worse.

All these well planned events failed and everyone around the world knew about it, especially the Russian leader Khrushchev. This now has the President falling in the pits of despair and strongly fearing he had failed to convince Khrushchev of American resolve. “We have a problem in making our power credible,” he told a newspaperman, “and the place to do it is Vietnam.”

There is nothing that more set the stage for how our Political State of Being came to be what it is today beyond the Vietnam War. As other attempts to show ‘USA Power’ failed, Kennedy was thoroughly convinced that we would effectively show our Power with the Vietnam War.

We could call this Failed Aggression by the USA – Part One.

You simply CAN NOT isolate what is happening today without a better and clearer picture of how we got where we are.

[Steadygain]

Before we go any further let me make something very clear.

I am 100% American and I fully believe in the 'America' that I was totally grounded to believe in. The one with 'Liberty and Juctice for all' and all the Marvelous Beliefs that made 'us' such a wonderful country. You know the old 'Melting Pot' of yesteryear where anyone around the world would have thought 'to be American is to know freedom and abundance like never thought possible'...

2 Central Underlying Themes will take us forward from here.

First - In the PRESENT AGE - all you can see is the Thick Coffee, only years later does the 'glass' look like clear water.

It's pretty much always a 'Power Game' folks and people mean nothing - and are only there to demonstate and seperate those who have Power and those who don't.

Shortly after his election, Kennedy had been told of a secret CIA plan to send an army to overthrow Fidel Castro and rid the western hemisphere of its first Communist regime. Made JFK believe Power will dominate

CIA and Joint Chiefs assured Kennedy the invasion would succeed without revealing United States participation. Gave him a guarantee it would be easy - swift - fool proof - and totally completed in Secret. (Spec. Forces)

Kennedy gave the go-ahead for a landing at the Bay of Pigs to have Castro assassinated. But everything went wrong. When the landing foundered, Kennedy, fearful of revealing American involvement, refused to provide air support. 1,189 men were captured, 114 were killed. Here JFK thought by closing his eyes and pretending it didn't happen that 'No One Will Know'. 1,300 some American soldiers (so what - they got caught and that's tough luck).

Now, he brought his brother (Robert) in to continue the effort to overthrow Castro. He was put in charge of a new clandestine plan, Operation Mongoose. “Ousting Castro is the top priority of the United States government,” he said. He ordered hit-and-run raids, destruction of roads and bridges, sabotage.

The CIA was using mobsters in a plot to assassinate Castro. This strange alliance had begun during the Eisenhower administration and continued unbroken through the Kennedy years. I couldn't make up something better than this.

Kennedy's repeated failures on the 'World Stage' convinced him he had failed to convinced Khrushchev of American resolve. “We have a problem in making our power credible, and the place to do it is Vietnam.”

I grew up under Kennedy and was old enough to remember how he was viewed (and Jackie and Kids). If any American Citizen had even remotely insinuated Kennedy and his Administration was 'guilty' of any of the facts listed above - they would have been declared 'A Communist' and killed or imprisoned.

NO ONE WOULD HAVE BELIVED IT - Because he was 'The Greatest of All' and the overwhelming bulk of the population whole heartedly believed everything the Media represented and knew nothing about what is clear today.

When dealing with 'Politics' this is something you always have to bear in mind. What the Media projects is usually stanted for a specific purpose and on the whole it is to make the entire Population believe they are up to Par with what is really happening and actively voicing their views - and seeing, believing, feeling those views are making a difference.

[Steadygain]

The 2nd Theme is 'You may have won the Battle but you won't win the War'.

At one point in history the 'Blacks' apparently began to make some feel sorry for the 'Slavery System' and it was apparently feared our 'World View' is being projected to make 'us' look bad.

Here it's important to note that when any other Nation does anything that even hints of Human Rights Violations - our Media goes wild and that's all you hear.

Well after a lengthy war - with brother killing brother and the Ultimate Goal of taking General Lee's property to bury the Winning Troops - 'Slavery' ended.

You may have won the Battle but you sure won't win the War.

Now brace yourselves for this folks - because if you're young you'll have a hard time believing this.

During the Kennedy years the Blacks had the daily reminders that the War was not over.

They were forced to sit in the back of the bus -Get back there you dogs

Their water fountain or bathroom stood out to signify You are nothing but filthy animals (if not worse) and that is why the things designated for you always looks like filth - always looks terrible.

Not because we 'as a country' are wrong - but because we as a country have the legal right to regard you this way.

Lynching of the Blacks - Oh yeal - the last publicized one happened when I was a kid. A white girl said a black dude looked at her 'a certain way'. She later said it wasn't true - but big deal as he was less than an animal anyway. So the crowds were outraged and he was hung by the neck.

So during the Kennedy years the Blacks actually had the nerve to not only think they were human but now they were ready to make this known. This was a Major Shock to the overall System because if this is true - if it's really true then 'We as America were Wrong'.

************************************************** *

Getting back to our 2nd Theme.

Cuba - Hey you bastards - how dare you fight back (even if we were the aggressor and whatever you did was totally in self defense).

Now we'll teach you a lesson by putting a 'Choke Hold' on you. So the embargo against them was imposed to teach Castro a lesson he'll never forget. But who has suffered throughout the years since it was put in place? Not Castro - for if anything it proved to the entire population who really is 'The Bad Guy'. The population at large are always the ones to suffer and they are just like us. They are good decent people who want the same thing all of us do.

So here you have the JFK Administration and the Grounding of what was to Shape 'Our Present Day Political Climate'

[Steadygain]

The 2nd Theme is 'You may have won the Battle but you won't win the War'.


So here you have the JFK Administration and the Grounding of what was to Shape 'Our Present Day Political Climate'

OK - So now we have the 'Grounding on which everything is laid'

LBJ - followed JFK and what overwhelmingly predominated his Administration is the Vietnam War.

Don't ever forget what this was 'really all about' because once set in place the next President has little choice but to continue what has already been started. After all we have 'an appearance' to demonstrate to the world at large and the cost (money or lives) is not a factor to even consider. I'm sorry if I sound a little bitter and please know I don't mean this in any way, shape, or form to offend any veteran - I am talking strictly Politics and nothing more.

From their perspective 'The Show must Go On'

Also during his Administration a Discovery as huge as the Sun being the Center of the Solar System was finally established.

'Blacks really are Human Beings' just like us except the skin color.

Now in the mist of all this 'chaos' was the forming of the Hippie Generation. Here we have the emerging 'Universal Spirit of Love and Peace' - of Tranquility - Music - Pot and Freedom to be whatever; even to grow your hair long and dance with free movement and rhythm. MUSIC - and the groups that brought it forth largely dominated a trend of thought that rapidly spread throughout the country.

[Birchtree]

The lesson from history is never fight a war under a liberal dogma. I did 18 months in Vietnam and missed the whole hippie thing - no worse for the wear. They were all middle class **** heads and cowards as far as I was concerned.

[Steadygain]

'America America God shed His Grace on thee
......bom bom bom bom
and crown thy good with Brotherhood from sea to shining sea'

With the LBJ Administration what the WORLD SAW was Blacks being hosed down and beaten... and it got worse and worse with every Nation on Earth glued to their seats watching and taking everything in.

Vietnam war intensified - became more of a 'Numbers Game' where the body count essentially determined who was winning.

But if this sounds bad - wait till we get to next guy - Nixon :worried:

Sorry Birch - I missed your post. Actually I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm glorifying the Hippies (or downgrading the vets) - That is not my intention at all. I am simply taking Politics and how the General Population lived and trying to put things in a Nutshell.

You know I immensely respect you - love and admire you - please don't be offended by my assessment of the years which most fundamentally Created what we have today.

I'm just bringing everyone up to Par - so everyone can understand why I think about the current Administration and Politics in General as I do. Then I'm done Birch - I'm not going to drag this on day after day because there is no way my view is going to change.

[Steadygain]

The lesson from history is never fight a war under a liberal dogma. I did 18 months in Vietnam and missed the whole hippie thing - no worse for the wear. They were all middle class **** heads and cowards as far as I was concerned.

Folks let me assure you that Birch DID NOT miss the atmosphere by which the Vietnam vets were regarded and what everyone of them had to endure.

But all that takes place with the next Administration

[Birchtree]

The first movie I saw when I got back was "Easy Rider". Don't be too hard on Nixon - he has earned my respect. Of course everyone has an opinion and I've heard it all before and will take no offense. Have at it - can't wait until you get to Jimmy. As strange as this may sound, I fell out of bed last night dodging a bullet in a dream. For so many years I never dreamed - but lately I can't control them and they are always violent. I've fallen out of bed falling off a dike and during a knife fight. I told the wife I'm almost ready for some sissy bars. I put rubber pads on the corners of my night stand after I cracked my head once. Anyway I suspect this will also pass.

[Steadygain]

As strange as this may sound, I fell out of bed last night dodging a bullet in a dream. For so many years I never dreamed - but lately I can't control them and they are always violent.

Birch - please know in real life - I live to serve the Vets and by far the group that gets the Highest Priority are the Vietnam vets.

I don't mean this to take from anyone else; but in my opinion these guys were majorly 'let down' and so I'm here to make things right.

The greatest Miricle Drug I've found so far is Prazosin and this has made the biggest difference for Vietnam Vets compared to all the others put together. Many of these guys have dreams/nightmares on a regular basis and in fact a lot of them have never left Nam because of this. They dread going to sleep because they wind up in Nam - wake up in sweats.

The most powerful memories possible are the 'Adreniin Filled Ones' and over there you were filled to the Max over and over ... it's what gives you 'your edge' and keeps you alive. In that setting we need to be like that.

LONG TERM - After you fall asleep Adrenillin floods out in your brain and when this happens the experiences where this was excessively high (like Vietnam) - those memories will often be in the forefront. These can quickly become like major highways and thus the dreams and nightmares get more frequent.

Prazosin 2mg at bedtime is what I start everyone on that has this kind of problem. It's a medication designed to keep the Prostate from getting too bid - and it's a blood pressure med. But in psychiatry we know it supresses the Adrenillin from flooding out (and that's all it does). Overall 95% of all Veterans I've given this to have about a 75% reduction in their dreams/nightmares and have no problems with side effects. This is the absolute GOLD MINE of all meds for what you're describing.

[Birchtree]

Thanks Steady for the help. I have an appointment with my primary in about a month after my next blood draw - I'll mention prazosin to him as a possible med. I haven't told him about my dreams but I will. Sometimes when I start my wife will wake me up. She says I'm very active with my movements. She woke me the other night when I was pounding someone - slamming my pillow with punches.

[Steadygain]

OK - so in summary 'America' had solidly been viewed as the 'America' the 'Beautiful' for patriotic's sake and that was the glue that held society at large together. It was forever the unquestionable thought that was never remotely challenged.

With JFK - this became marred by the events noted.

With LBJ - things got worse and the American Climate was filled with all kinds of BS from riots - growing demonstrations - never ending war. And here I'm simply saying when a war looks like there is never an end in sight it gets very old.

The population in general wonder when the hell it's going to end and what the hell are we doing???

This is very important to understand THE POLITICAL STAGE LBJ had to endure and all the more how all the other Nations viewed us.

General RULE to remember - when any Nation has DIRT - that will be the overwhelming focus all other Nations pay attention to. When it's us watching (enjoying them :D:D) that's one thing; but when we are the ones being watched :(:embarrest: it's another things altogether.

No Problem my friend - man you are why I'm so committed to doing what I can (and all like you)

[Steadygain]

Nixon is now forced to enter the same stage LBJ left him with... and this is an incredibly crucial detail to remember.

In fairness to Nixon - the General Climate that sprawled over the USA and the 'endless (and ever growing senseless) war' were not his making but he had to deal with it. That is where Obama is today but I am not saying this as 'Pro Obama' but simply in fairness to the Stage by which he had to enter and deal with.

Nixon - however decided the War had been taken too lightly and he immensely increased the bombs and all aspects of warfare. When others had tried to arrange a 'Christmas cease fire' - Nixon did just the opposite and brought the bombing around the clock.

Understandably he must have thought I'm sick and tired of this BS and it's time 'WE WIN THIS THING' and bring it to an end.

Meanwhile back at the American Ranch - the Climate throughout is getting increasingly worse... with demonstations getting bigger, people burning the flag and 'draft cards'... and STATIC growing everywhere.

Now FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER - the faithful soldiers who are giving their lives for the benefit of their country; who are doing a job no one would ever 'want to do' - but that was their 'calling' and they fully lived up to their committment. NOW the soldiers themselves are under attack and viewed as the scum of the Earth - they are less than worms... and they largely took the place of 'Politicians'.

Now the blame is more shifted towards the men and women who chose to honor their country and sacrifice their lives.

AND THIS WAS UNDOUBTEDLY THE MOST DAMAGEING ASPECT TO ENTER THE PICTURE AND PLAGUE OUR NATION.

Was the entire World intently watching all this stuff ???

America America .... and crown thy good with 'Brotherhood' :rolleyes:

But who is ULTIMATELY THE BLAME for all this stuff - for everything that happened from DAY ONE ?
The Politicians !!

[nnuut]

I came home from PACAF in 1969,,,,,, nobody said a cross word to me!!:nuts:

[Steadygain]

Kennedy's repeated failures on the 'World Stage' caused him to realize he had failed to convince Khrushchev of American resolve. “We have a problem in making our power credible, and the place to do it is Vietnam.”

Now 3 Administrations later Nixon is finally ready to bring the War to a close.

Kennedy could not deal with a pea sized little island right off our coast.

Nixon finally realized this is not going to make our power credible... and the troops were removed and it was over...America had dealt with enough and from the perspective of the World - they had lost.

This is American - the undefeated - the Super Power that can't possibly lose... 'indivinceable with Liberty...'

This was a HUGE BLOW to American Society and this formed the Framework by which the Political Stage would now be built on for years to come.

Norm, I appreciate your committment and time in Service. No doubt in 1969 no one did say a word ... for the ribbons and parades and all the things you'd think the veterans would get were totally absent.

[Steadygain]

Folks I'm sorry if it seems I'm drawing too much attention to the Vietnam War. That is honestly NOT my intention. It's simply that to really understand where POLITICS is today you pretty much have to start with JFK.

But lets end with Nixon and 'Watergate'

Politicians will always say 'I am innocent':rolleyes:

So this dragged on for quite some time - with the whole world taking notes and adding to their collective view of 'who we are and what we represent'

In the end Nixon said 'Hey I majorly screwed up and got caught and have to f***ing step down'

So one Administration after another things are getting worse and worse and the Stage for each subsequent Politician gets harder.

[Birchtree]

And I went into the closet for fifteen years - kept everything to myself until Ronald Reagan brought me out. I remember one Memorial Day right after I came out of the closet I wore my CMB out in public at our local mall and actually received a few nods of recognition - and that felt so good after so many years of isolation. Only the few would recognize the CMB - it's not the same as the CIB. Anyway I'm never going back to the closet. Back in the early seventies I was standing in a drivers license renewal line and a local politician was out shaking hands - he extended his hand and I ignored him. He had the balls to ask me if I planned to vote and I said no. Then he asked why like it was my patriotic duty - I told this fool I was a Vietnam veteran and had earned the right not to vote if I was so inclined. He promptly turned and walked away. I wasn't going to let him make me feel guilty. Snort.

[Birchtree]

Steady,

Don't you dare stop without including yellowback Jimmy - he really was our worst president ever.

[edub10304]

And I went into the closet for fifteen years - kept everything to myself until Ronald Reagan brought me out. I remember one Memorial Day right after I came out of the closet I wore my CMB out in public at our local mall and actually received a few nods of recognition - and that felt so good after so many years of isolation. Only the few would recognize the CMB - it's not the same as the CIB. Anyway I'm never going back to the closet. Back in the early seventies I was standing in a drivers license renewal line and a local politician was out shaking hands - he extended his hand and I ignored him. He had the balls to ask me if I planned to vote and I said no. Then he asked why like it was my patriotic duty - I told this fool I was a Vietnam veteran and had earned the right not to vote if I was so inclined. He promptly turned and walked away. I wasn't going to let him make me feel guilty. Snort.


Fellow CMB earner here. Hats off to you Brother.

Ed

[Birchtree]

It's my pleasure to make your acquaintance Ed.

[edub10304]

It's my pleasure to make your acquaintance Ed.


Mine as well. Earned mine in Iraq. Served in the 1st BN 14TH IN 25th ID.

[Steadygain]

I wore my CMB out in public at our local mall and actually received a few nods of recognition - and that felt so good after so many years of isolation.

That's wonderful Birch and THANK YOU for sharing that.

Only the few would recognize the CMB - it's not the same as the CIB.

The CIB is 'Army' Birch - and it's every bit the equivelent. I've got the CIB on a plague in my office that says: 'For all who have earned this, or anything similar, you have my highest respect and honor'.

Next to that is my Honorable Discharge. I've had guys cry reading that because they never got the recognition they deserved.

Anyway I'm never going back to the closet.

Nor should you - it wasn't you that was f***ed up it was Society at large and everyone forgot 'What a soldier is' 'what they represent' and the 'outstanding and endless recognition they deserve'

You other guys I don't know - but with Birch I extend my deepest respect and gratitude.

Back in the early seventies I was standing in a drivers license renewal line and a local politician was out shaking hands - he extended his hand and I ignored him. He had the balls to ask me if I planned to vote and I said no. Then he asked why like it was my patriotic duty - I told this fool I was a Vietnam veteran and had earned the right not to vote if I was so inclined. He promptly turned and walked away. I wasn't going to let him make me feel guilty. Snort.

Well I don't want to say too much about how I feel until the end but this describes it to a tee. These pansy assed politicians can throw out all the charm - talk about 'patriotic duty' and not have the balls to make a difference and take on their role on even the slightest level of what a soldier like you or me took our committment. If anyone should be 'serving their country' it should be them.:mad:

Steady,

Don't you dare stop without including yellowback Jimmy - he really was our worst president ever.

How could I possibly stop where I am ?? We're going right up to the present ... but first I had to lay the Grounding on which everything else is built.

Again THANKS for the comments everyone - good night all !

[Birchtree]

Ed,

My daughter served with the 25th ID on FOB Warrior for 15 months. She was a 1Lt. She is now a Captain and has been stop loss for the last year and will leave the Army in December. I have an electric strawberry on my rear windshield showing support. Anyway to make a long story short she discovered love in Iraq and is getting married in January.

[poolman]

Ed,

My daughter served with the 25th ID on FOB Warrior for 15 months. She was a 1Lt. She is now a Captain and has been stop loss for the last year and will leave the Army in December. I have an electric strawberry on my rear windshield showing support. Anyway to make a long story short she discovered love in Iraq and is getting married in January.

Congratulations Birchtree,

It sounds like you brought your daughter up well. Couldn't ask more from her sounds to me. I've got a Twelve year old daughter I'm trying to do the same. She seems special from what everyone tells me plus I can tell. Man they grow up fast. It seems like everything is on Fast Forward now.

Oh Well Good Job Birch :)

[edub10304]

Ed,

My daughter served with the 25th ID on FOB Warrior for 15 months. She was a 1Lt. She is now a Captain and has been stop loss for the last year and will leave the Army in December. I have an electric strawberry on my rear windshield showing support. Anyway to make a long story short she discovered love in Iraq and is getting married in January.


I was on FOB Warrior as well. Tropic Lighting!

[Birchtree]

Good to hear from you Poolman. The young man my daughter is going to marry was raised in Manassas, Virginia. He attended VMI. I did have to bribe my daughter to join ROTC but some things are necessary. She tells me she is going to join the Army Reserve in the Chicago area to continue her leadership skills and responsibilities for a few dollars more. She has made many friends over the last five years and has seen some world and knows how to spend money.

[Steadygain]

First I want to express my sincerest gratitude for the beauty of our fellowship with one another and how we can communicate on even the 'touchiest subjects' without being bitter and resentful.

In dealing with Politics - the most important aspect is understanding what are supposed to be the underlying fundamentals on which everything should be built. This would be the Inalienable Rights and way before I knew anything about Kennedy or any other President or about Congress and Politics in General I had the fullest and unquestionable belief that all such individuals lived, worked, and ruled under these rights.

Inalienable Rights

The government of the United States is the result of a revolution in thought. It was founded on the principle that all persons have equal rights, and that government is responsible to, and derives its powers from, a free people. This was the deepest grounding I had growing up from Birth. Way before I realized what happened to the Native Americans, the circumstances the Blacks had to endure during my childhood, and perhaps most importantly how other Nations had to live because of our influence.

Because I was one of the 'priviledged few' to grow up in 'The First Organized Community of the United States' - a Neighborhood in Baltimore, MD called Roland Park - with it's colonial mansions; I had the most deepest and solid belief that every other person had the exact same freedom I knew and 'our circumstances' were all the same. Didn't realize until High School that 'no Blacks' were allowed to live in that Neighborhood.
To Jefferson and the other Founding Fathers, these ideas were not just a passing intellectual fad, but a recognition of something inherent in the nature of man itself. The very foundation of government, therefore, rests on the inalienable rights of the people.

The Declaration of Independence is the fundamental statement of what government is and from what source it derives its powers. It begins with a summary of those inalienable rights that are the self-evident basis for a free society and for all the powers to protect those that a just government exercises.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Declaration of Independence as originally written by Thomas Jefferson

"[Our] principles [are] founded on the immovable basis of equal right and reason."

"An equal application of law to every condition of man is fundamental."

"The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens."

"To unequal privileges among members of the same society the spirit of our nation is, with one accord, adverse."

"[The] best principles [of our republic] secure to all its citizens a perfect equality of rights."

[Steadygain]

Now it's time to get to the CORE of my POLITICAL BELIEF

Before we move on to the subsequent Administrations which brought us to the present conditions and circumstances Obama resides in - the most crucial aspect at this point is a 'unified belief' among the whole MB and its guests.

We may say we 'believe' and 'hold to' the FOUNDATION of the previous post - but we have not lived that way with others in our own country and most definately have not lived that way with other Nations.

So at this point we need to decide who deserves the 'Inalienable Rights' and who does not.

If anyone feels because of their 'Race' or 'Gender' or because they were raised in a 'Religion' or as a certain 'Political Party' that this makes you ABOVE the rest of the population....

PLEASE make yourself known and tell me why others are beneth you and why others should serve you. If there is any kind of conflict in my Political Views - this is where it will undoubtedly be grounded.

If no one comes forward - I'll have to assume we are all on the same page.

[Steadygain]

Well moving along...

I started with JFK, LBJ, and Nixon because there were my forming years and the basis of my 'Political Grounding'. How I came to see the Government was mainly through them.

During those years - when in Elementary School - the greatest thing I learned and the one most central piece of information that stuck with me throughout the years was:

'The USA uses 90% of the World's Resources'

This was back in the days when there was no such thing as 'Political Correctness'. Back then they simply told you exactly how it was.

When the teacher told us this - she conveyed it in such a way as to stress 'The Reason we have it so great is because we use 90% of the entire World's Resources'.

As a child I was amazed at how incredible that statement was. The greatest part of me 'filled with pride and happiness' that 'we' are the ones taking and using all these resources. It made me feel like I was so incredibly blessed to be an American.

When I got home from school I was on top of the world; feeling like 'we had it all'. So with pride and joy I told my mother the thrilling news and she looked at me with the saddest and concerned expression.

I was baffled - why in the world would that make her sad?

She said, 'That means the rest of the entire world only has 10% left over to share among all the other people' and she stressed that this will undoubtedly make them unhappy and mad - and eventually they will want their fair share. This was the single greatest 'eye opening event' regarding politics and the world.

At the time I believed the Resources were available to everyone equally and the only reason why we got 90% was simply because we wanted more and used more. BUT I honestly believed everyone else simply were happy with having just a fraction.

Never would I have even remotely believed that 'we' the USA were taking these resources from other Nations and leaving the native population to barely survive and do all the work for basically nothing. I did not find this out until much later on.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men"

[Steadygain]

So to carry on with my train of thought.. :blink:

When one Nation gains in Strength and Power does that give them the right to go to Iran (for instance) and take their OIL, but not only take it - but force the Native Population to do all the work at the barest substainest; here I mean the equivelent of 'Slavery' ??

Are they now granted a Superior Position where they can rightfully go to Latin America and South America to take their produce and make others barely survive in the worst of conditions to keep these Resources flowing to our stores??

OR is the Bottomline Truth - this is a UNIVERSAL PRINCIPAL
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness;

[Steadygain]

Perhaps the Greatest Problem we collectively have in understanding Politics is how it is structured and what is really going on.

The CIA was using mobsters in a plot to assassinate Castro. This strange alliance had begun during the Eisenhower administration and continued unbroken through the Kennedy years.

Here it is essential to realize that the Most Powerful Criminal Association of Organized Crime - is not only fully in operation but working hand in hand with the CIA. You've heard the expression I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine. This alliance, which started with Eisenhower and continued throughout the Kennedy years - has at least one 'Mission' we know of and that was to assassinate Castro.

From my perspective Politics is never meant to work with a Criminal Network. Equally important Politics should endeavor to promote relationships that foster mutual respect and understanding.

Shortly after his election, Kennedy had been told of a secret CIA plan to send an army to overthrow Fidel Castro and rid the western hemisphere of its first Communist regime.

From my perspective a President should be strong enough to stand for what is right. A plan to overthrow another government is wrong and puts in 'Real Life' the very threat the American Population was brain washed into believing the Communists would do. I also believe things done is secret are morally wrong - and that the President of all people should be as 'Open as Possible'.

CIA and Joint Chiefs assured Kennedy the invasion would succeed without revealing United States participation.

From my Perspective - Being able to do something and not 'GET CAUGHT' - should not form the basis of what we do.

Kennedy gave the go-ahead for a landing at the Bay of Pigs to have Castro assassinated. But everything went wrong. When the landing foundered, Kennedy, fearful of revealing American involvement, refused to provide air support. 1,189 men were captured, 114 were killed.

I believe attacks against another Nation should be openly declared and the reason for the attack should be known to all. The President, as the Commander in Chief, must do all things possible to support and protect his troops.

Now, he brought his brother (Robert) in to continue the effort to overthrow Castro. He was put in charge of a new clandestine plan, Operation Mongoose. “Ousting Castro is the top priority of the United States government,” he said. He ordered hit-and-run raids, destruction of roads and bridges, sabotage.

I believe that majorly failing in ONE WRONG ATTEMPT does not give the President any grounds to REPEAT the exact same mistake. Wrong is Wrong - even if you 'succeed' at what you're doing.

Kennedy's repeated failures on the 'World Stage' convinced him he had failed to convinced Khrushchev of American resolve. “We have a problem in making our power credible, and the place to do it is Vietnam.”

I believe any WAR set in place primarily for the purpose of showing off your power is WRONG. So here it appears that one President who failed in numerous Covert Operations to overthrow another Nation - has firmly established the need for a much bigger WAR to make up for it.

Questions or Comments :)

[Steadygain]

Well - for anyone following these posts

NO DOUBT you will appreciate my overall thinking.

My purpose in bringing all these things to light IS NOT to pick on Kennedy and if his Administration was ongoing today (instead of Obama) and things were as easily found today as back then then the posts against him would probably be the same if not more.

My Purpose is emphasizing 'A CORRUPT System will yeild Corruption'

He (Kennedy our first example) came into a corrupt system - with many plans already in place and ready to go. He was but a man (nothing more and nothing less) and got swept away with his Position and Heavily swayed by the System.

SO - IF ANYONE IS HOPING FOR AN 'ACCEPTABLE CHANGE' IT WILL NOT HAPPEN AS LONG AS THE GENERAL SYSTEM REMAINS CORRUPT.

McCain, Clinton, Obama - put in the exact same circumstances would unquestionably be subjected to endless attacks and none of them would have the power or strength or ability to effectively clean the HOUSE in which they operate.

Good night all :) and if I start boring ya ... I'll shift a bit... but that's it for today

[nnuut]

I suggest that we fire them all!!!:nuts:

[Steadygain]

I suggest that we fire them all!!!:nuts:


:D:D I wish it were that easy my friend.

The problem at this point goes far beyond our own HOUSE and we are so intimately connected to other HOUSES that even if we could totally empty out all the long standing 'well groomed politicians' and really honestly start with 'Fresh Air'

They would have to deal with a huge multitude of problems associated with other HOUSES.

Imagine if you will that America drifted into another demension where the Communist Nation is no longer viewed as 'our enemy' but as 'our friend' and the one we stake our very existence on.

Now just imagine (in that ridiculous circumstance) that we told them we needed their money to survive... and they responed in kindness but made it clear we'd have to pay them back with interest. ;)

[nnuut]

I'm a man of few words, and just take it for granted that others can read in the obvious and going deeper and deeper into the details and even emotions is a direct insult to their intelligence. With that said, I think the staggering majority of our Representatives are jaded, even if they didn't start their careers that way, they were forced to play the game to be even minimally effective, resulting in the partisan influence for hire clowns we have now. Like I said "fire them all". Have a good night
Norman:cool:

[Steadygain]

I'm a man of few words, and just take it for granted that others can read in the obvious

It should be 'obvious' to everyone Norman, but it can't possibly be 'obvious' when many of the most outstanding events of a President's Term have been hidden. I believe JFK was regarded as 'The Greatest President' by a huge majority.

But just think if anyone like you or me worked directly with a Major Organized Crime Network to kill other Leaders; if we sent a bunch of people secretly in to overthrow another government, if it came out we were loose with a bunch of women, and if we ultimately established a huge war to cover our previous blunders. Imagine us getting the USA Armed Forces involved and then totally turning our backs on them and pretending we had nothing to do with it - when they got in trouble. Had it been you or me - our name would probably be greater than (or equal to) Hitler.

Yet many - including me - thought of him as the Best President ever. The coverage at that time was wonderful. It was a different day and age. The population as a whole felt they had something to believe in. Integrity was the general way of life.

and going deeper and deeper into the details and even emotions is a direct insult to their intelligence.

I hope that's not in reference to this thread :confused:

All I'm doing is bringing out the facts - the truth about how America was and how each President was as they served their Terms.

Many are totally convinced that only a 'Republican' (or the other party) would get their vote PERIOD. So if in the end 'intelligence' is insulted it is only because I have thoroughly brought to light the absurity of holding to such a belief. My GOAL - if I would have a GOAL regarding 'Politics in General' is not to insult intelligence but rather to make INTELLIGENCE stand out so that no one can ignore it.

Martin Luther King, Jr did the exact same thing. It was the only way he could bring the TRUTH to light and essentially force intelligence to overcome stupidity and ignorance.


With that said, I think the staggering majority of our Representatives are jaded, even if they didn't start their careers that way, they were forced to play the game to be even minimally effective,

Well you are undoubtedly one I do not have to convince of any underlying foundational truths. But actually the point of this tread is not so much to show how 'the same garbage continues - or progressively gets worse'.

The overwhelming point is to show how the Politicians became who they are and why they 'collectively function' the way they do. Many are 100% Convinced the USA and the world itself would be far better off if a (R) or (D) were in place. In their hearts and minds this 'False Truth' is so deeply ingrained in their belief 'that One can never do WRONG and One can never do RIGHT'.

In the end I will undoubted prove that it is the Corporations, Industries, Banks and Prominent Organizations that are respondsible for not only keeping the Politicians in place, but all the more for directing their actions. It is wholly a 'MONEY GAME' and has been for quite awhile.

resulting in the partisan influence for hire clowns we have now. Like I said "fire them all". Have a good night
Norman:cool:

What we ultimately need to do is Target the Industries and Corporations respondible for the conditions forced on the Global Population and bring them to a grinding halt. Then we need to put Politicians in with 'Special Forces' mindsets. People who totally live to 'DO THE JOB' and never look for lines to cross. People that live and breath INTEGRITY and would never consider failure an option. People that can not be bought or bribed and people that will fight to death any Industry or Corporation that violates the Inalienable Rights of others.

[nnuut]

What we ultimately need to do is Target the Industries and Corporations respondible for the conditions forced on the Global Population and bring them to a grinding halt. Then we need to put Politicians in with 'Special Forces' mindsets. People who totally live to 'DO THE JOB' and never look for lines to cross. People that live and breath INTEGRITY and would never consider failure an option. People that can not be bought or bribed and people that will fight to death any Industry or Corporation that violates the Inalienable Rights of others.


Exactly!! replace the political enablers as you suggest! Because it is their fault that the Industries and Corporations are allowed, and even encouraged to continue their agendas.:cool:

[Steadygain]

Exactly!! replace the political enablers as you suggest! Because it is their fault that the Industries and Corporations are allowed, and even encouraged to continue their agendas.:cool:



Oh THANK YOU !! :)

A wonderful hug (manly of course) comming your way !

[Steadygain]

So for now we have to conclude that whenever a person becomes grounded in the belief: 'A woman can't be... a matador, a race car driver, an engineer .... and the endless list that's been created over the years'

WOMEN HAVE ALWAYS PROVED THAT WRONG.

I know it's seems impossible to believe that something on our chest, or between our legs, is not enough to immediately bring forth billions of distinct jobs and roles that only one can do -- but it appears these abilities are much more determined by what we have in common than what makes us different.

For the overwhelming majority, this is something we'll have to ponder on for days, weeks, and maybe even months to come. But women are smart - their brains are not lagging behind at all - and they can move their arms and legs and feet and hands everybit as good as us. Being a women does not imply you're weak and strength alone is rarely important (or a measure of one's capability)

So in the end I would have to say:

'Shot if you must this ole grey head, but give me Liberty or give me Death'.

[Steadygain]

And ONE MORE thing :mad::mad:

I am sick and tired of this ridiculous belief that:


'Animals' can't think
'Animals' don't have emotions
'Animals' can not communicate
'Animals' are not perceptive

and that Animals in general lack all components of what makes us Human.

Look at their make up and look at ours - they actually have brains and similar organ systems. If anything they think a thousand times better than us because they don't live for money and they are never obsessed with trivial material things. They are essentially 100% emotions, are light years ahead of us in perceiving things, and fully communicate on the highest levels possible.

If any of you 'genusis' :rolleyes: would take the time to 'BOND WITH THEM' you would lose your narrow, naive, and insane few of animals altogether.

OK - now I can call it a day - 10 charts to go

[Steadygain]

'Shoot if you must this ole grey head, but give me Liberty or give me Death'.

Saying corrected


If any of you 'genusis' :rolleyes: would take the time to 'BOND WITH THEM' you would lose your narrow, naive, and insane view of animals altogether.

Corrected...:embarrest:

Well I would say too much coffee throws me out of orbit :toung:

Good night all - and wow the Markets Soared (he he)

[Birchtree]

I've educated my Tonkinese to become my trusted investment adviser - and when she speaks I listen. When she says move now I move. When she says sell now I go huh?

[Steadygain]

I've educated my Tonkinese to become my trusted investment adviser -

You are grossly deceived my brother and friend.

Your Tonkinese was already educated and was the most perfect trusted 'Adviser' all along. Your awareness of the Tonkinese ability to perceive things - analyse - and exceed above high human intellecual levels simply was increasingly recognized as you allowed the Tonkinese to make herself known.

So in reality it is not you who educated her, but she who educated you. By breaking down the walls that kept you from recognizing her incredible abilities you discovered the truth.

and when she speaks I listen.

When you stop listening - she will stop speaking. She is still wired like a woman and therefore it's essential that you don't ignore her or ever 'blow her off'.

She knows how you 'respect her' and therefore she will all the more gain more respect. She knows you're in tune with her and that you love her on 'only the level you do' and therefore she will more than be in tune with you and be thoroughly devoted to you.

When she says move now I move.

Sometimes her intention is not to make you move - but to see if you are listening. She also needs to know you really trust her and that what she saids is seriously considered.

Men often have selective hearing (no offense) and it's easy for us to tune things out and do our own thing. She needs to know that is not happening with her.

When she says sell now I go huh?

But when you say huh - you're giving her that extra attention, while scratching behind her ears and lovingly stroking her fur. You're giving her your undivided attention and making sure you're hearing what she's communicating.

That's good Birch - cause that's exactly what she needs. You can't possible go wrong, because there is no way she would ever fail you

AS LONG AS YOU DON'T FAIL HER - BUT SHE'S INTUNE AND SHE ALWAYS FEELING YOU OUT, ALWAYS MAKING SURE.

[Steadygain]

This is NOT to challenge on any kind of offensive level - but simply to bring in an alternative view which may be equally 'respected'


Inalienable Rights

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed;

that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends,
1)it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it,
2)and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --

The very first song I wrote reflected the Vietnam War.

Sun's coming up
I'll be on my way
Won't be back again
To see this pretty place

Here I was deeply reflecting on what appeared to be happening to many - and it was only 'a stroke of luck' that I was not drafted. Some of my classmates quit school in the 10th grade determined to go to Vietnam and do their thing.

In this song I was one of the 'unlucky ones' that got the draft card and tomorrow morning it's been determined that I am going across the ocean to another country to face war and die.

In my song - which I wrote in a beautiful park not far from my home; the scenes I'd grown to cherish and the 'security and contentment' I had in my familiar setting were being taken away and I am being forced to go to another place - where I wil be killed and lost and never again see and feel the beauty I was living in at that moment.

So bye bye - good bye
I'm on my way
I'll be there to stay
Until I die

Soldiers going under
Mother start to cry
Nixon sent them over
Now underground they lie.

Here I'm reflecting not only on my own pain and death - but I'm all the more seeing how deeply this is going to hurt my parents. At that time I felt Nixon was responsible - because he was the President.

So I want to go
Where I can be alone
Until the world is shown
The Government's a Show
and We are ALL it's cast

Will need to come back and elaborate on this later. But this is perhaps the Grounding of the 'Hippie Generation and Belief'


I did 18 months in Vietnam and missed the whole hippie thing - no worse for the wear. They were all middle class **** heads and cowards as far as I was concerned.

Sorry got to run --- but wanted to go at this gently

[Steadygain]

OK - Let me share some things real quickly....

one Emergency after another

I did not want to be forced in - but I joined on my own accord.

Until you're a soldier - NO ONE CAN POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS TO HAVE THEIR MINDSET. It's not that they were ****heads and cowards :rolleyes::nuts: it is way more that they could not even remotely know how a soldier lives and thinks.

They were under the mindset that a Soldier was just like them and that all of them could simply say 'Hey we don't want War and we won't be a part of what's gong on'.

The Army that I was in NEVER gave a person to even remotely have a thought like that. You were NOT PAID TO THINK YOU WERE PAID TO DO. You learned very fast it is not an individual thing but it's a team thing. If you screw up then all those around you pay the price.

The Hippies - were 'Individuals' - and had no concept of what you were, how you were trained and the manner by which you had to conduct your life day after day.

In their own way they were not cowards at all - they had a different point of view and based on their incredibly 'deep belief' they took a stand against the Government and said we refuse to particapate in what they felt was an overall violation.

So in essense they stove for PEACE to the greatest extent; but even to the point that they were willing to fight for it and join forces to protest against WAR.

Again I would have to emphasize that a Soldier would never be able to understand 'the Hippie Mindset' and nor would the Hippie be able to understand the 'Soldier Mindset'.

But it is not that one group was Bad and one group was Good. It is simply that for each to exist they had to have a completely different mindset - and each was on opposite extremes.

[Viva La Migra]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed;

that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends,
1)it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it,
2)and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

We need our current leadership to read, and more importantly, understand this one! Some of them think they're royalty!

[Birchtree]

Steady,

The 'Hippie Mindsets' were all essentially hedonistically oriented with their middleclass materialistic comforts. Their view as a liberal view was to let the war weigh on the lower class whites and blacks. They had too much to loose as an elite class. Life in Toronto would be just fine. And when yellow back Jimmy gave them all amnesty I became a born again Republican and have never looked back. Most of these creeps opted for the 'Alice's Restaurant' option if they were inadvertently drafted and missed the bus to Canada. They were assigned to the 'Group W' bench as father rapers and mother stabbers. Certainly you remember Arlo Gutherie.

[Steadygain]

We need our current leadership to read, and more importantly, understand this one! Some of them think they're royalty!

:D:D:D

Steady,

Paranoia - super afraid I'm going to offend you.

Thanks for responding.

The 'Hippie Mindsets' were all essentially hedonistically oriented with their middleclass materialistic comforts.

If that is true - I and all the ones I knew - did not see it that way at all. Birch, I was a Hippie before I was a Soldier. Although perhaps in my own situation 'we were middle class' it was not 'materialistic comforts' that gave us our grounding but it was wholly and completely the Mindset that flowed from one to another.

We were not out for what most would consider 'materialism' and to be perfectly honest it was that very 'Establishment' that we felt needed to be challenged. Our Ultimate Goal would have been promoting a Spirit of Unity and Peace. We wanted LOVE to prevail and to transcend everything - we wanted to shake off the BS and be more free and natural.

Their view as a liberal view was to let the war weigh on the lower class whites and blacks.

I absolutely promise you that no one I ever knew felt like that. We felt every single person involved was a 'victim' of somethng that should have ended ages ago and all the more saw the whole thing as one huge mistake. To all of us it made absolutely no difference if you were black or white or rich or poor.

Here I need to stress that none of us could have understood the mindset of someone who would intentionally join and commit their life on the level you did - and be the soldier you were.

To us - it was essentially a form of slavery and everyone was 'forced' into the ongoing Play.

They had too much to loose as an elite class.

If we were 'elite' is was only in the sense that we refused to give up our 'freedom' - that we refused to participate in something we were fully convinced of was wrong - and if there was any sense of feeling elite it was totally in that we had the freedom to enjoy life to the fullest. But it was a different day and age back then. Getting high and being 'mellow' was the fabric that held us all together.

Life in Toronto would be just fine.

Well I never fled the country and none of my friends did either. But they did not flee by choice - they were forced out of their own country for standing for what they believe in.

CB and many others here have said essentially the same thing: They have their guns and ammo and by golly they are going to stand their ground.

I understand how you feel now Birch - because I've been there and I was one of the very few to be choosen. They came to me and made it clear that they aren't a group you just join - you are personally selected. My PROBLEM was not with the Hippies - my problem was with all the others 'wearing uniforms' and having no clue what it was to be a Soldier.

And when yellow back Jimmy gave them all amnesty I became a born again Republican and have never looked back.

Well - I understand how you feel, but I would deal with this later.

Most of these creeps opted for the 'Alice's Restaurant' option if they were inadvertently drafted and missed the bus to Canada. They were assigned to the 'Group W' bench as father rapers and mother stabbers. Certainly you remember Arlo Gutherie.

I remember him very well and 'Alice's Resturant'.

Hmm ... not sure what to say here. If people fled to Canada because they were not genuinely part of the Hippie Movement and all it stood for.....

if they 'ran away' simply because they were cowards and not willing to 'do their part'

but were not a part of something bigger... then I would see them the same way you do.

[Steadygain]

The 'Hippie Mindsets'.

My PROBLEM was not with the Hippies - my problem was with all the others 'wearing uniforms' and having no clue what it was to be a Soldier.


Hey my friend, I believe I may have found some 'common ground' and this is probably the thing that equally bothers both of us.

For you it's the Hippies - because they chose not to be Soldiers.

For me it was the ones that actually joined but were too dumb to develop the right mindset. They understood how to get dressed and go to formation - - but they had no f***ing clue what it was to be a Soldier.

So Birch - I guess maybe there is some resentment on my part that the others thought it was just a day to day thing and you were more there to be a 'good guy' and not get in trouble. Most people simply look at the surface and I seriously don't believe they are inclined to see beyond the surface to the deeper things. But they are the ones least prepared for when they need to be in action and by far the ones most likely to get killed and ruin things for anyone attached to them.

But I don't resent them Birch - because I rose above it. For me it's not who they were - it's who we are - who I am and what I made of myself and how I lived up to the calling, how well I fulfilled my committment. Going beyond that is not our place and it's not worth trying to figure out. Just be glad you have the character you do have.

[Birchtree]

I agree completely.

[Steadygain]

I agree completely.

Thanks man !

I love ya Birch - have a great weekend !!!

[Steadygain]

Well let me get back to this and just vent in General:

I just finished another big workup on a fine outstanding young man with amazing potiential - physically in good shape and is more than mentally capable of doing 99% of available jobs and doing it well.

States 'He can't even begin to try to get a job - because if he works anywhere it will ruin his chances of getting 'Disabiliy'

So I DO NOT KNOW what it's like to live in Cuba or China or wherever we may think SOCIALISM PREVAILS

But throughout my life in the good ole USA - I have never seen more SOCIALISM than IN our country. While in college in WV the trend for young women was to have as many babies as possible because the more you had THE MORE THE GOVERNMENT PAID you. And I'm sure this was not limited to WV.

We're not having children because we want them -- we're having them to get more cigarettes and booze and whatever....

I know how we may view the Muslims .... the French .... or Asians...

BUT HOW DOES EVERYONE ELSE VIEW US.????

Fat lazy slobs ... with no ambition .... and dwindling education/skills

Don't want to work .... and want guaranteed FREE INCOME and HANDOUTS ~~ be a US Citizen.

Ever been a Veteran (makes no difference how long you were in or how you behaved or how you got out) if you can't make it Service Connected then get Non Service Connected Pay for life.

Our SOCIALISM -- strips away any (and every) incentive to be a productive citizen. There's does not

Driving to work they mentioned a BIG MAN --- and I mean this guy is BIG --- a teacher who for years blind foldeded a bunch of first or second graders ... for a 'banana taste' test. Went on at different schools and when it finally came to light it was 'sexual abuse' well after months and months he finally got sentenced and will spend a lot of time in jail.

Our SOCIALISM - keeps all these guys happy and safe; provides all their meals, comfortable bed, plenty of exercise, medical care and everything else.

So if you're even remotely concerned about 'our country' becoming Socialistic ~~ what the hell do you think we are in deepest and worst of ways.

Make me a DICTATOR ~~ not President ~~ but a DICTATOR and I absolutely guarantee all this Garbage will END

And I would Tinker with the 'Repeat Rapists' brains and turn them into innocent kittens that are productive and can add to our society. Registered Sex Offenders ... no problem .... will do the same with them. By golly most of them 'can not help it' they need 'CHANGED' but putting them behind bars only puts the cost on us.

So I might need to get rid of a few

But as Dictator ~~ I do whatever the hell I feel like doing and I don't have to worry about what anyone thinks.

Sponsored by the Adolf Hitler Society :rolleyes:

[Birchtree]

Now that was what I'd call an excellent post. Give me more.

[Show-me]

Absolutly amazing! :D Nice read.

[Steadygain]

Now that was what I'd call an excellent post. Give me more.

Absolutly amazing! :D Nice read.

Thanks guys :embarrest: -- reading back through is a little embarassing



BUT at a BARE MINIMUM --- the present Government should reslate my current position to Boot Camp Commander... :D:D

99.99% of these guys (gals) simply need some 'motivation'

Someone with the balls to 'kick their ass' and push them until they break - at which point I can then make something out of them...

or until they find the inner strength and determination to find their potiential so they no longer need my 'Motivation'


I would bet Birch's $5M - (plus my jackpot) that if given the freedom to really 'motivate' this population - on my terms and without any concerns about what anyone thinks... that maybe 2% of the entire group are honestly 'Disabled' - or not able to work.

Want to increase jobs ?? Then have the ones with money pay the ones that need something to do... anything to keep them busy...

I would pay someone to 'hand crack' the salted peanuts in a shell and drop them out of the shell and into my hand .... while I'm watching a movie or a show on TV.

Does that sound degrading ??? Well it's not degrading because I'm giving someone a chance 'EARN' some money.

Could pay someone else to massage my feet ... and if they get really good at it... may increase their pay to do my shoulders and back...

The point is --- if I've got some money to spare (and this includes anyone reading this) then we should be able to let others EARN some of that money....

Without any kind of concern with lawsuits...

Without having to 'officially establish' some kind of Business involving 10,000 Government Regulation and Policies...

Without State intervention or Control ...OHSA.... or the rest

Make it easy ... and make it real .... we could pay a bunch of people who need the money to do all kinds of things (not degrading or abusive) ~~ but practical things like 'cracking my peanuts' to make our lives enjoyable and let them have some money to enjoy.

[coolhand]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/10/02/navarrette.chicago.obama.olympics/index.html

[Frixxxx]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/10/02/navarrette.chicago.obama.olympics/index.html
I think he won't get a fair shake anywhere. I think alot of people have put their 100% trust in him and are usually 100% disappointed in his results or lack of attention.

I hope these types of articles aren't all that come from his Presidency. I would hate to see the generational fallout from his Presidency.

As right as I am in the political spectrum, I cringe when I see him unable to placate his own side of the line.

Respectfully,

Frixxxx

[coolhand]

As right as I am in the political spectrum, I cringe when I see him unable to placate his own side of the line.

Frixxxx

That was the reason I posted this article. It is very telling how sensitive folks are and how high expectations were or still are.

I don't think he surrounded himself with the right people. Especially given the fact that he was not a beltway politician and had little experience going into our highest office. I wish him luck, but that learning curve is steep and needs to be conquered pretty quick.

[WorkFE]

I would pay someone to 'hand crack' the salted peanuts in a shell and drop them out of the shell and into my hand .... while I'm watching a movie or a show on TV.


Why do that when I can just wait for them to tax you more, give it to me with out having to lift a finger, then sit right next to you and watch the movie.
Life is tuff brother

[Steadygain]

Why do that when I can just wait for them to tax you more, give it to me with out having to lift a finger, then sit right next to you and watch the movie.
Life is tuff brother


Life is wonderful --- beyond description --- for those in good standing; gainfully employed and well prepared :D:D

BUT - if you sat next to me - and were willing to cover some of the costs.... not only could they crack the peanuts for us

another could gently fan us
while a few more massaged our feet
and one would ALWAYS BE ON THE READY if we needed a refill
wanted fresh popcorn..salted with butter

Ahhhh life is wonderful my friend ... it all depends on your perspective

[grandma]

That was the reason I posted this article. It is very telling how sensitive folks are and how high expectations were or still are.

I don't think he surrounded himself with the right people. Especially given the fact that he was not a beltway politician and had little experience going into our highest office. I wish him luck, but that learning curve is steep and needs to be conquered pretty quick.

The people Pres Obama has appointed to be the Czars of the US Citizenry (& the other U.S. inhabitants) make me think that maybe this guy in Oregon could be a potential `next employee.'
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/10/former_blm_employee_in_medford.html

[coolhand]

The people Pres Obama has appointed to be the Czars of the US Citizenry (& the other U.S. inhabitants) make me think that maybe this guy in Oregon could be a potential `next employee.'
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/10/former_blm_employee_in_medford.html

I can relate. :laugh:

[Steadygain]

The people Pres Obama has appointed to be the Czars of the US Citizenry


Reminds me of a rather extensive conversation we had in my home within the past month.

TOPIC - Use of Czars and the basis behind them

MAIN POINT: Communism/Socialism -- and the orgin of the word Czar and what it means....Which is Mind Blowing ...:sick:


how a President has been able to yeild more and more power by appointing Czars....:(:mad:


how what is happening is largely setting the stage and there is nothing congress can do to stop it....

sorrry to leave off on such a 'bad note'


Good Night All

[James48843]

Reminds me of a rather extensive conversation we had in my home within the past month.

TOPIC - Use of Czars and the basis behind them

MAIN POINT: Communism/Socialism -- and the orgin of the word Czar and what it means....Which is Mind Blowing ...:sick:


how a President has been able to yeild more and more power by appointing Czars....:(:mad:


how what is happening is largely setting the stage and there is nothing congress can do to stop it....

sorrry to leave off on such a 'bad note'


Good Night All

Now now Steady. What do you mean?

Czars predate anything communist- remember, the leader of Russia before the 1917 revolution was called a "Czar" by some, but the actual term far predates Tsar Nicholas. Any any Soviet era person wouldn't be caught dead naming someone a Czar....

[phil]

I was really embarassed to discover that many of the opposition were elated when Chicago didn't get the Olympic bid. Shameful.

[burrocrat]

Hey what happened to the timeline from Carter to present?

It's a difficult and complex project you've undertaken here, but so far a pretty good summary, keep up the good work.

[Steadygain]

Now now Steady. What do you mean?

Czars predate anything communist- remember, the leader of Russia before the 1917 revolution was called a "Czar" by some, but the actual term far predates Tsar Nicholas. Any any Soviet era person wouldn't be caught dead naming someone a Czar....

Thanks James ;) I appreciate you're gentle style

Had a lot going on yesterday and thought about my post driving home. I think Czar stands for 'dictator' but will find out for sure when I get home... now that the matter came up.

I simply remember the jest of the conversation dealt with the far reaching abilities of 'appointing Czars' and that they were over Congress and had the ability to essentially have control over other entities (people in power) already in place.

That's what made me think of the Czars you mentioned and the absolute power they had

I was really embarassed to discover that many of the opposition were elated when Chicago didn't get the Olympic bid. Shameful.

I agree and I'm from IL ~~ often feel like the lone voice

Hey what happened to the timeline from Carter to present?

It's a difficult and complex project you've undertaken here, but so far a pretty good summary, keep up the good work.

Thanks man -- need to run --- but will explain later

[Viva La Migra]

I was really embarassed to discover that many of the opposition were elated when Chicago didn't get the Olympic bid. Shameful.
Not any more shameful than the liberals who were celebrating the increased violence in Iraq after the "Mission Accomplished" incident. At least the opposition to Obama isn't encouraging our enemies to go out and kill our troops, like Bush's opposition was! Get off your high horse!

I'm disappointed Chicago wasn't picked, but I don't think it was a failure on Obama's part. He did the best he could, but given the choice of Chicago and Rio De Janeiro, I'd go for Rio too! :D It's about time South America held the games. Better Rio than Caracas! Imagine how much bigger Hugo Chavez' head would get if he had won the Olympics! :laugh:

I think it was a missed opportunity for Obama. Why didn't he push for the gulf coast to hold the Olympics? After all the talk about helping hurricane Katrina victims, you'd think he'd ask the US Olympic Committee to push for New Orleans to host the Olympic games. Imagine the jobs and community development projects that could be funded in that area if they had the Olympics to prepare for!

Reality is, he was trying to pay a political debt and failed. That is what the opposition is celebrating. He's no Teflon Don!

[Steadygain]

Not any more shame full than the liberals who were celebrating the increased violence in Iraq after the "Mission Accomplished" incident. At least the opposition to Obama isn't encouraging our enemies to go out and kill our troops, like Bush's opposition was! Get off your high horse!

I'm disappointed Chicago wasn't picked, but I don't think it was a failure on Obama's part. He did the best he could, but given the choice of Chicago and Rio De Janeiro, I'd go for Rio too! :D It's about time South America held the games. Better Rio than Caracas! Imagine how much bigger Hugo Chavez' head would get if he had won the Olympics! :laugh:

I think it was a missed opportunity for Obama. Why didn't he push for the gulf coast to hold the Olympics? After all the talk about helping hurricane Katrina victims, you'd think he'd ask the US Olympic Committee to push for New Orleans to host the Olympic games. Imagine the jobs and community development projects that could be funded in that area if they had the Olympics to prepare for!

Reality is, he was trying to pay a political debt and failed. That is what the opposition is celebrating. He's no Teflon Don!

GREAT Post !!! Viva La Migra .. :D


I'd say if we include the entire MB and all visitors from 3/1/02 to the present......

less than 5 would disagree !! ;)

[Steadygain]

Hey what happened to the timeline from Carter to present?

It's a difficult and complex project you've undertaken here, but so far a pretty good summary, keep up the good work.


Well :embarrest::o the truth is I started this Thread with the intention of exposing a lot of facts ~~ that are now undeniable and irrefutable

Starting with JFK - and the excessive corruption he stepped into as a New President and what essentially transpired at his first big meeting...

... but out of Respect for Spaf, Birch... and all the others... decided it's not worth taking from all they did and had to go through.

It's virtually impossible to show the extent of selfish, ego driven, power pushing mindsets by those at the top - who have done incredibly huge things (and now you can clearly see their motive) and the hundreds of thousands of lives involved and the Trillions of dollars that went down the drain... as though it didn't matter.

BUT - I'm a man of my word and I told Birch I'd leave the matter alone... and in retrospect I realize I'd simply dig up a lot of bad memories that are better left off being forgotten.

[phil]

I hope that everyone has read the recent summary that's been leaked (by someone?) about Afghanistan. What it says is that we haven't done really anything in the country for the last 8 years. Now, DOD is going back yet again to ask for more resources to overcome this problem.

So.....not a single person resigned during the last 8 years, knowing that we had intentionally under-resourced the Afghan war, and invaded a country that had nothing to do with Islamic extremism. All the careerists just let it happen, it seems.

Amazing. Now, we go back to the US taxpayers again to explain that a new war, one that should have been taken care of 6 years ago, has suddenly appeared on the horizon.

I look forward to interesting times.

[PessOptimist]

I hope that everyone has read the recent summary that's been leaked (by someone?) about Afghanistan. What it says is that we haven't done really anything in the country for the last 8 years. Now, DOD is going back yet again to ask for more resources to overcome this problem.

So.....not a single person resigned during the last 8 years, knowing that we had intentionally under-resourced the Afghan war, and invaded a country that had nothing to do with Islamic extremism. All the careerists just let it happen, it seems.

Amazing. Now, we go back to the US taxpayers again to explain that a new war, one that should have been taken care of 6 years ago, has suddenly appeared on the horizon.

I look forward to interesting times.

...and invaded a country that had nothing to do with Islamic extremism...uh, Phil, Taliban governed Afghanistan 1996-2001, Al Qaeda training camps...oh never mind:worried:

[phil]

But not Iraq. That was the whole point.....that you conviently missed. How many billions of dollars and lives were wasted? I see we have the same enablers in place that we had before. Same old story. Let's simply ignore the facts, and request more money. These were the same people that told President Clinton that it wasn't possible to take out the Taliban in Afghanistan prior to 9/11, even though they had already attacked us.

...and invaded a country that had nothing to do with Islamic extremism...uh, Phil, Taliban governed Afghanistan 1996-2001, Al Qaeda training camps...oh never mind:worried:

[Steadygain]

But not Iraq. That was the whole point..... How many billions of dollars and lives were wasted?


Well I can handle only bits and pieces cause I'm just a little kid..:p


Let's start with this :D Billions ?? Billions ?? (said in stress to help ya out)

Why when our good ole friend George Bush was President (92% of the MB immediately bows to worship or lifts their hands in praise) - he and the US of A spent at a bare minimum 6 Trillion on just that noble war alone.

Why before the US of A invaded Iraq - they had electricity and a lot of folks were working.. and things were different and not just in bad ways...

after the Huge and Sustained Invasion and continual destruction they essentially lost their electricity and only a handful of jobs were left.... but who cares as long as the press makes it sound good

As for lives wasted -- are you referring to the population that the US of A was apparently sent over there to help ??? Cause if that's what you're referring to -- you'd better get out a long spread sheet because the toll on them has been far greater than the toll on the US Soldiers. But if you want to just count the US Soldiers who were killed, Injured with permanent Physical Disabilities, and all those with PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injuries, Depression and a whole slew of psychiatric disorders... then the numbers are probably way over what anyone would even think.

But how can you say Wasted?? Just look at how much they accomplished --- and now with Afganistan being aggressively targeted and Iran slated for destruction .....

soon it will be a world of total harmony and peace -- and if that's the end result of 'a few casualities' then it was all worth it.

So the main question has to be --- Has the World at large been brought to a greater and more lasting Global Civilization where by all of us can love and accept one another as brothers and sisters??

Or are divisions and strifes every bit as prevalent today and it was prior to the Minimum $7 Trillion (by this time) and the endless human suffering...

'ALL WE ARE SAYING IS GIVE PEACE THE CHANCE' - John Lennon

[PessOptimist]

But not Iraq. That was the whole point.....that you conviently missed. How many billions of dollars and lives were wasted? I see we have the same enablers in place that we had before. Same old story. Let's simply ignore the facts, and request more money. These were the same people that told President Clinton that it wasn't possible to take out the Taliban in Afghanistan prior to 9/11, even though they had already attacked us.

Phil, you were talking about Afghanistan, which you are conveniently ignoring. To quote your comment again:
I hope that everyone has read the recent summary that's been leaked (by someone?) about Afghanistan. What it says is that we haven't done really anything in the country for the last 8 years. Now, DOD is going back yet again to ask for more resources to overcome this problem.

So.....not a single person resigned during the last 8 years, knowing that we had intentionally under-resourced the Afghan war, and invaded a country that had nothing to do with Islamic extremism. All the careerists just let it happen, it seems.

Amazing. Now, we go back to the US taxpayers again to explain that a new war, one that should have been taken care of 6 years ago, has suddenly appeared on the horizon.

I look forward to interesting times.


How about you stop making stupid statements and then trying to justifying them by lying. Then maybe someone could figure out WTF you are trying to say.

[phil]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,215397,00.html

Great Fox News interview with former President Clinton.

[Steadygain]

WOW !! That was EXCELLENT PessOptimist :D:D


Seriously --- I was so afraid someone was going to say some pansy ass kind of statement :rolleyes:


That's what I like to see.....

For the next 15 minutes I want nothing but all out war....

Keep it comming ;)


Phil DAMN IT -- WHAT DID I JUST SAY ???

That was way too kiss ass

[Viva La Migra]

'ALL WE ARE SAYING IS GIVE PEACE THE CHANCE' - John Lennon
We gave peace a chance and was attacked on 09/11. We were attacked before that many times, but on 09/11 we said ENOUGH! We sharpened our claws and started kicking butt and taking names.

Our liberal friends would have turned the other cheek. What would they do if the terrorists struck that other cheek? At what point would they go to war?

[PessOptimist]

WOW !! That was EXCELLENT PessOptimist :D:D


Seriously --- I was so afraid someone was going to say some pansy ass kind of statement :rolleyes:


That's what I like to see.....

For the next 15 minutes I want nothing but all out war....

Keep it comming ;)


Phil DAMN IT -- WHAT DID I JUST SAY ???

That was way too kiss ass

Steady, I do not want to have another war. Just pointing out that if Phil want's to inject a comment about Iraq in a post about Afghanistan, he or she or it really ought to identify it as a statement about Iraq.

I believe Phil has achieved his main goal, to make me angry. That's why there was no immediate rebuttal.

And Steadygain, you do not have to always try to be a fixer.

[phil]

Read the post. I stand by what I said. Instead of invading Afghanistan, we attacked a country that had not a thing to do with 9/11. That would be.....Iraq.

The fact is, now, after wasting US taxpayer dollars on a senseless war, NOW we have to go back to the taxpayers......AGAIN. Have you even read the recent report about Afghanistan? It's just one more in a long list of misdirected resources. The redacted report states that nothing has been accomplished in the past 8 years, and we need to put in another huge number of troops there.

So, we've done nothing in Afghanistan for the past 8 years, instead, we fought a senseless war in a country that had not a thing to do with 9/11. And we wonder why no other country trusts us around the world.

Did you even read the 9/11 report?

How hard is that to understand?

Phil, you were talking about Afghanistan, which you are conveniently ignoring. To quote your comment again:


How about you stop making stupid statements and then trying to justifying them by lying. Then maybe someone could figure out WTF you are trying to say.

[James48843]

Hey Phil-

How about providing a link to the recent report on Afghanistan, so we can give it a read?

thanks

[James48843]

Never mind. Here it is.

66 pages.
http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/Assessment_Redacted_092109.pdf?sid=ST2009092003140

[PessOptimist]

Read the post. I stand by what I said. Instead of invading Afghanistan, we attacked a country that had not a thing to do with 9/11. That would be.....Iraq.

The fact is, now, after wasting US taxpayer dollars on a senseless war, NOW we have to go back to the taxpayers......AGAIN. Have you even read the recent report about Afghanistan? It's just one more in a long list of misdirected resources. The redacted report states that nothing has been accomplished in the past 8 years, and we need to put in another huge number of troops there.

So, we've done nothing in Afghanistan for the past 8 years, instead, we fought a senseless war in a country that had not a thing to do with 9/11. And we wonder why no other country trusts us around the world.

Did you even read the 9/11 report?

How hard is that to understand?

I read the post So.....not a single person resigned during the last 8 years, knowing that we had intentionally under-resourced the Afghan war, and invaded a country that had nothing to do with Islamic extremism. All the careerists just let it happen, it seems.

You were talking about Afghanistan. If the comment about invading was about Iraq, say it was about Iraq. You seem to like to point out that others have a low reading/writing level. Read your own posts!

Yeah I read the 9/11 report. It is only hard to understand your posts when you change subjects without saying so. Your post says invaded a country that had nothing to do with Islamic extremism.while you were talking about Afghanistan.That is obviously what you meant. Do you ever preview what you post? If you do,how hard is that to understand.

Your lack of clarity in communication may be a hint as to why you are a "former Marine officer".

You state you have been out of the country for 20 years. Doing what? Are you really a federal employee? If so what agency do you work for? You always seem to reply to anyone who questions you with another off subject comment. How about you actually answer some questions?

[James48843]

World peace.

A great goal. Almost had it once, a long time ago.

Perhaps we can all lower the levels of devisiveness in our small corner of the internet, and take a deep breath, and enjoy one another's company for a bit.

Sound good?

The beer's on me.

[Viva La Migra]

World peace.

A great goal. Almost had it once, a long time ago.

Perhaps we can all lower the levels of devisiveness in our small corner of the internet, and take a deep breath, and enjoy one another's company for a bit.

Sound good?

The beer's on me.
World peace is indeed a great and noble goal. Unfortunately the world has never been and never will be at peace. Nature is forever locked in a battle over which species is dominant. Plants battle for water, land, and sunlight. Animals and insects eat plants and each other to survive and grow in population. Mankind is simply another animal in the grand scheme of things.

[Steadygain]

We gave peace a chance and was attacked on 09/11. We were attacked before that many times, but on 09/11 we said ENOUGH! We sharpened our claws and started kicking butt and taking names.

Our liberal friends would have turned the other cheek. What would they do if the terrorists struck that other cheek? At what point would they go to war?

Good Post my friend :D

Hopefully you know me well enough to know I was simply out to rattle some chains and push a few buttons. ;)

Steady, I do not want to have another war. Just pointing out that if Phil want's to inject a comment about Iraq in a post about Afghanistan, he or she or it really ought to identify it as a statement about Iraq.

I believe Phil has achieved his main goal, to make me angry. That's why there was no immediate rebuttal.

And Steadygain, you do not have to always try to be a fixer.

Hey PessOptimist -- I luv ya Bro

Please know ~~~ yesterday was very long and stressful and by the time I got on the MB at the end of the day ~~ I was 'Fiesty' and in desperate need of doing something ONARY (sp)

So PLEASE KNOW - in this circumstance I wasn't trying to 'FIX' anything....:o

Just the opposite ... was trying to PUSH as many buttons as possible as I was 'logging off' and hoping that in some small way I would kick of an avalenge of posts ....:rolleyes: ... knowing I just left the office and am driving home.

Anyway - in this case I was out to fan the coals and build the fire -- he he he

[phil]

We wasted a lot of time and effort and money in Iraq. Now, with a new administration in power, we've suddenly discovered Afghanistan?

I suspect this report on Afghanistan was leaked to show that, yet again, the taxpayers are going to have to dig deep in their pockets. The report states that we haven't really done anything in Afghanistan, thus far.

On the ad hominem.....thanks. It only weakens your argument.

I read the post

You were talking about Afghanistan. If the comment about invading was about Iraq, say it was about Iraq. You seem to like to point out that others have a low reading/writing level. Read your own posts!

Yeah I read the 9/11 report. It is only hard to understand your posts when you change subjects without saying so. Your post says while you were talking about Afghanistan.That is obviously what you meant. Do you ever preview what you post? If you do,how hard is that to understand.

Your lack of clarity in communication may be a hint as to why you are a "former Marine officer".

You state you have been out of the country for 20 years. Doing what? Are you really a federal employee? If so what agency do you work for? You always seem to reply to anyone who questions you with another off subject comment. How about you actually answer some questions?

[Steadygain]

We wasted a lot of time and effort and money in Iraq.

Well - seriously I need to run over to the hospital so only have a few minutes to address this.....

Wasted a lot of time and effort... is a very vague and essentially 'undefinable' term...

That would be inpossible to define without 'specific' details.


FOR INSTANCE - BIRCHTREE COULD SAY MY DAUGHTER WENT TO IRAQ 'FULLY COMMITTED TO SUPPORTING AND SERVING THE U.S.A. TO THE HIGHEST DEGREE OF INTEGRITY AND HONOR ---

AND AS A RESULT MET THE MAN WHO IS SOON TO MARRY HER IN JUST A FEW SHORT MONTHS....

You see in this 'defined' and 'specific' circumstance -- what 'value' could we place on a woman of such character as Cpt. Buzz and all that she specifically represents.... or what value could possibly be placed on the man that is to care for her -- love her and cherish her from this day forward......

Lastly you S..o.b :(:mad: You had better NOT say 'WE' unless you were directly giving your life and the time you directly spent involved with that conflict.... if you didn't give your life (time, energy) then 'WE' is a bad choice of words....


Hey Phil --- as an afterthought I just remembered you were USMC --- disregard this post

[Viva La Migra]

We wasted a lot of time and effort and money in Iraq. Now, with a new administration in power, we've suddenly discovered Afghanistan?

I suspect this report on Afghanistan was leaked to show that, yet again, the taxpayers are going to have to dig deep in their pockets. The report states that we haven't really done anything in Afghanistan, thus far.

On the ad hominem.....thanks. It only weakens your argument.
I don't think Iraq was a waste of time. I think it was about time! I was in Kuwait for Desert Storm and my unit was poised to go into Iraq three times before Saddam Hussein backed off and allowed the U.N. inspectors in. I still think Bush 41 made a mistake by not letting us kick his ass out while I was there.

Afghanistan wasn't suddenly discovered. It's just that focus has been shifted back there. I've considered the argument that some have made that we never should have shifted focus away from Afghanistan in the first place and I think I can now, reluctantly, agree on that point. That doesn't mean, though, that getting rid of Saddam Hussein was a bad thing, IMHO.

The real question is, have we chopped off one head so that ten heads may grow back? If we turn tail and run away, I think the answer will be yes.

[Viva La Migra]

Good Post my friend :D

Hopefully you know me well enough to know I was simply out to rattle some chains and push a few buttons. ;)



Hey PessOptimist -- I luv ya Bro

Please know ~~~ yesterday was very long and stressful and by the time I got on the MB at the end of the day ~~ I was 'Fiesty' and in desperate need of doing something ONARY (sp)

So PLEASE KNOW - in this circumstance I wasn't trying to 'FIX' anything....

Just the opposite ... was trying to PUSH as many buttons as possible as I was 'logging off' and hoping that in some small way I would kick of an avalenge of posts ....:rolleyes: ... knowing I just left the office and am driving home.

Anyway - in this case I was out to fan the coals and build the fire -- he he he
No worries Steady, we're cool! :cool:

[phil]

Iraq was directly opposed to Al-Qaeda. So, we took down one of the terrorist's opponents for them in that part of the world.

Good idea. Any more good ideas on the horizon?

I don't think Iraq was a waste of time. I think it was about time! I was in Kuwait for Desert Storm and my unit was poised to go into Iraq three times before Saddam Hussein backed off and allowed the U.N. inspectors in. I still think Bush 41 made a mistake by not letting us kick his ass out while I was there.

Afghanistan wasn't suddenly discovered. It's just that focus has been shifted back there. I've considered the argument that some have made that we never should have shifted focus away from Afghanistan in the first place and I think I can now, reluctantly, agree on that point. That doesn't mean, though, that getting rid of Saddam Hussein was a bad thing, IMHO.

The real question is, have we chopped off one head so that ten heads may grow back? If we turn tail and run away, I think the answer will be yes.

[Viva La Migra]

Iraq was directly opposed to Al-Qaeda. So, we took down one of the terrorist's opponents for them in that part of the world.

Good idea. Any more good ideas on the horizon?
Was Saddam opposed to Al Quaeda? I thought he tolerated them, because they were Sunni? I can see Iran opposed to them, because they are Shia. You got me on this one, I just don't know. I still think taking Saddam out was a good thing.

As for good ideas on the horizon, do you think Obama will attack Iran if it continues to develop nuclear weapons?

[Steadygain]

I don't think Iraq was a waste of time. I think it was about time! I was in Kuwait for Desert Storm and my unit was poised to go into Iraq three times before Saddam Hussein backed off and allowed the U.N. inspectors in. I still think Bush 41 made a mistake by not letting us kick his ass out while I was there.

From this perspective ALONE - there is no way that anyone could argue your specific position and point of view on this. PERIOD

THEY WANTED TO --- BUT WOULD HAVE BEEN 'TOO OBVIOUS' TO THE REST OF THE WORLD AT THAT TIME --- AND SO WE HAVE GLOBAL 'POLITICS' GETTING IN THE WAY

Unlike most Targets -- he was heavily protected and getting rid of him would have been too huge a deal. Would not have been able to make it look like a fluke event that .... just happened....

Afghanistan wasn't suddenly discovered. It's just that focus has been shifted back there. I've considered the argument that some have made that we never should have shifted focus away from Afghanistan in the first place and I think I can now, reluctantly, agree on that point.
Here I totally agree - the problem is (and I honestly mean this) Al-Queda and the insurgents are mainly based in Pakistan ~~ not Afganistan ~~ which is curtosy of the American Media. Once you have 'the Bomb' it's a much more complicated situation.

That doesn't mean, though, that getting rid of Saddam Hussein was a bad thing, IMHO.

Whether this was a 'long operation' in play ~~ where by the CIA set a lot of the pieces in place --- Live Newscasts clearly showed this idiot talking crap to all of 'us' - the USA as a whole and essentially challenging us and forcing us into action. I would have gladly killed him at that time. (all the more if I was in your shoes)

BUT - NOTHING IS AS IT SEEMS AND WE ALWAYS HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT -- IN ALL LIKLIHOOD IN ANOTHER 20 YEARS WE'LL ALL FIND OUT THAT THE SUPPLY OF OIL TO THE USA WAS ABOUT TO BE SHUT DOWN -- AND THE USA WAS FORCED TO TAKE ACTION --- Saddam Hussein was in all liklihood only a Puppet ~~ doing a great job of playing the 'neccessary role' for US to TAKE ACTION.

The real question is, have we chopped off one head so that ten heads may grow back? If we turn tail and run away, I think the answer will be yes.

Well on this one --- I'd have to say 'The more the USA goes around the world' in acts of war and hostility 'striving to push all other cultures and foreigners' into their 'ACCEPTED MOLD' the more they will become the Target of Marked Aggression...

and here I would have to say that future 'Twin Tower Events' will likely be widely celebrated throughout the other Nations.

Iraq was directly opposed to Al-Qaeda. So, we took down one of the terrorist's opponents for them in that part of the world.

Good idea. Any more good ideas on the horizon?

Phil - I respectfully think you've got a few loose screws my friend and I seriously say that 'to keep this thread and site civil'

Saddam Hussein (and all he represented) was calloused destruction of everything and everyone he even remotely felt may have the possibility of rubbing him wrong. He undoubtedly represented a force that could not be ignored.

My PROBLEM is -- why do we ignore so many other regions of the world where pain and suffering are every bit as great ???

That's what burns my ass (as Buster might say)

[phil]

I expressed an opinion, and spoke the truth. Saddam Hussein had no connection with Al-Qaeda. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein_and_al-Qaeda

Also, read the 9/11 report, really. Remember Valerie Plame?
The 9/11 commission stated in its report that bin Laden had been sponsoring anti-Saddam Islamists in Iraqi Kurdistan, and sought to attract them into his Islamic army.

Where have I been uncivil? I'm the one who has to endure the ad hominem attacks. There's the sign of a weak argument.

Frankly, going back to the US taxpayers again to fight another war would be a real task. We're politically crippled both here and around the world, these days. Why did we get such a poor showing from most of the world when we invaded Iraq? Any ideas?




Phil - I respectfully think you've got a few loose screws my friend and I seriously say that 'to keep this thread and site civil'

Saddam Hussein (and all he represented) was calloused destruction of everything and everyone he even remotely felt may have the possibility of rubbing him wrong. He undoubtedly represented a force that could not be ignored.

My PROBLEM is -- why do we ignore so many other regions of the world where pain and suffering are every bit as great ???

That's what burns my ass (as Buster might say)

[Viva La Migra]

I expressed an opinion, and spoke the truth. Saddam Hussein had no connection with Al-Qaeda. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein_and_al-Qaeda

Also, read the 9/11 report, really. Remember Valerie Plame?
The 9/11 commission stated in its report that bin Laden had been sponsoring anti-Saddam Islamists in Iraqi Kurdistan, and sought to attract them into his Islamic army.

Where have I been uncivil? I'm the one who has to endure the ad hominem attacks. There's the sign of a weak argument.

Frankly, going back to the US taxpayers again to fight another war would be a real task. We're politically crippled both here and around the world, these days. Why did we get such a poor showing from most of the world when we invaded Iraq? Any ideas?
I repeat my argument about Wikipedia. That link also cites that there was evidence that Iraq and Al Quaeda leadership met several times and attempted to negotiate space for training, along with materials and equipment. We only found out that no agreements were reached after going into Iraq and Afghanistan and finding the intelligence in country.

It's easy to be an armchair quarterback and be critical after the fact, but if you were President and you were presented with evidence that showed Iraqi leadership and Al Quaeda were meeting somewhat regularly over the years, it's easy to see why one might put two and two together.

Maybe you're right, and Bush used Rahm Emanuel's logic to go into Iraq. You know..."don't let a good crisis go to waste." I don't think we'll ever know for sure.

Good night all. Thank God for the United States Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, and the Dallas Cowboy Chearleaders! :D

[Steadygain]

I expressed an opinion, and spoke the truth. Saddam Hussein had no connection with Al-Qaeda.

Phil,
I'm telling you this from the bottom of my heart and as a real friend.

I believe that is the PRIMARY BASIS for most (if not all) of the difficulties you've had expressing yourself.

YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE YOU KNOW THE TRUTH -- and if you did know the truth ~~ the whole truth (which of course encompasses essentially thousands and thousands of intrigate details involving numerous sources --- most of which are largely hidden and known only at the highest levels of 'Intelligence' and only by the highest people in authority --

If you honestly knew 'THE TRUTH' - there is no way possible you'd be stupid enough to share that openly with anyone - especially on an open MB like this.

So hopefully both of us can agree that what you 'believe is the truth' may be a far cry from what really is true.

Now let's move on to your 'opinion' --- that is wholly different and there is usually enough 'findings' to boldly support almost any opinion.

This is what I posted a little earlier. Here I am not arguing with you or with anyone else. My main point here is that whatever the TRUTH IS -- it will not come out in any kind of clear details for everyone to know for probably another 20 years. The most recent Bush did everything possible to SEAL all information 'indefinately' - BUT the last I heard was a Judge over-ruled that and so maybe the details will eventually come out.

BUT - NOTHING IS AS IT SEEMS AND WE ALWAYS HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT -- IN ALL LIKLIHOOD IN ANOTHER 20 YEARS WE'LL ALL FIND OUT THAT THE SUPPLY OF OIL TO THE USA WAS ABOUT TO BE SHUT DOWN -- AND THE USA WAS FORCED TO TAKE ACTION --- Saddam Hussein was in all liklihood only a Puppet ~~ doing a great job of playing the 'neccessary role' for US to TAKE ACTION.

Please NOTE - I am not saying 'I know the TRUTH' but rather I am openly 'spectulating' what more than likely is 'the TRUTH'


Saddam Hussein had no connection with Al-Qaeda. Phil, that makes absolutely no difference -- and I realize it was the WMD that was stressed and all the BS that was aired which undoubtedly made Saddam Hussein look like an 'EVIL MONSTER' that was out to 'Ruin the U.S.A. - or displaying open hostility towards the USA. And perhaps 'most importantly' his father - the Prior President failed to kill ~ and permanently elimate. So it's highly possible that the son was all the more out to 'honor his father' and finish the task he wished had been accomplished.

Phil - I know this is 'really long winded' BUT - sticking with my original statement in this 'color'... if I am right and the urgency to put the troops in Iraq was in reality to keep the oil flowing and sustain the USA's needed supply - then all the lives and time and expense were worth it - for the country as a whole. This in turn totally elimates anything connected with WMD, Al-Queda, Terrorism and the whole crock of s*** the media has been painting.

Why did we get such a poor showing from most of the world when we invaded Iraq? Any ideas?

We got a poor showing from the whole world -- not just most -- when we set off to invade Iraq -- because the 'Real Reason' more than likely could not be exposed. We could not say ~~ high level intelligence sources clearly show that 'our OIL SUPPLY' is about to be 'majorly distrupted' -- so we need to immediately go over there and kick some major ass to 'keep the oil flowing'...

Would make us sound as bad as him, if not worse. The rest of the world had 'no clue' why the war 'needed to be engaged' and had to view it as a mistake....

[Steadygain]

James, I forgot to get back with you on Czar

I was waaaaaayy off with my other post :embarrest: (when the topic came up)

Czar - comes from Ceasar

Ceasar was essentially considered a 'Diety' - a 'God'

So had nothing to do with Communism/Socialism -- in fact it's way worse...

It way more boiled down to .... if a President can 'appoint' Czars to oversee the most central and top 'positions' and Congress (and no one else) has the power (or ability) to stop it.....

A President can essentially live as a 'Diety' - a 'God' with unlimited and unstopable powers....:sick:


Why you might picture Shines being set up in Parks throughout Gainesville... and maybe statues around where CB lives.... and the possibilities are limitless

[grandma]

...got this in the e-mail today. http://patriotupdate.com/exclusives/read/44/15-Australian-Political-Cartoons-That-The-American-Press-Would-Never-Print

Fascinating!

[Steadygain]

...got this in the e-mail today. http://patriotupdate.com/exclusives/read/44/15-Australian-Political-Cartoons-That-The-American-Press-Would-Never-Print

Fascinating!


WOW !! Thank You !!!

Was just heading home and noticed 'Grandma' had a post.

Perfect way to end the day :D:D ... very much enjoyed it.;)

[phil]

On Iraq:

The truth is already out. We only have to read the 9/11 report. I didn't write it, it was a bipartisan commission. We've had 8 straight years of the political right "swiftboating" anyone who spoke the truth about Iraq. Reminds me of Vietnam.

The findings of the report show an intelligence failure leading up to the war. Iraq had neither nuclear weapons (and no real program to acquire them) nor did they have any connection to Al-Qaeda at the time. Any contacts they had were incidental, and it was clear that Al-Qaeda and the Baath party in Iraq were ideologically opposed to each other.

Intelligence was manufactured in an attempt to link Al-Qaeda to Iraq.

The last time we had this manufactured intelligence was the leadup to the war in Vietnam, with the USS Maddox incident.

[James48843]

Phil-

I take it you read Eric Alteman's book.

[phil]

Nope, Not Alterman. I'm not fond of his polemic against Nader, though I've read several pieces that he's authored in magazines. He's very critical of the media, particularly on the bye that was given on the leadup to the war on Iraq. That part, he's dead on.

Manufacturing national consent is just wrong. I think President Obama's measured approach on Afghanistan is much better, and I have a real appreciation of examining the problem there from many different angles, rather than looking at terrorism in a linear fashion. That's exactly what happened when the Soviets went into the country. Similarly, it's also what happened in the aftermath, when they left.

[Steadygain]

On Iraq:

The truth is already out. We only have to read the 9/11 report. I didn't write it, it was a bipartisan commission. We've had 8 straight years of the political right "swiftboating" anyone who spoke the truth about Iraq. Reminds me of Vietnam.

The findings of the report show an intelligence failure leading up to the war. Iraq had neither nuclear weapons (and no real program to acquire them) nor did they have any connection to Al-Qaeda at the time. Any contacts they had were incidental, and it was clear that Al-Qaeda and the Baath party in Iraq were ideologically opposed to each other.

Intelligence was manufactured in an attempt to link Al-Qaeda to Iraq.

The last time we had this manufactured intelligence was the leadup to the war in Vietnam, with the USS Maddox incident.

Phil -- this was WELL DONE !! :)

This is exactly how to state your view in a way that is 'SOLID' and 'WELL EXPRESSED' --- and gives you good credibility

A++ for this one ;)

[Steadygain]

The last time we had this manufactured intelligence was the leadup to the war in Vietnam, with the USS Maddox incident.

Well hopefully you saw my previous post --- so you should now realize I am convinced 'we' can have a decent discussion.

Here I would say 'The last time I saw this kind of manufactured intelligence was the leadup to the war in Vietnam....

MANUFACTURED INTELLIGENCE - however is pretty much a part of everyday life and has hugely been ongoing since the USS Maddox incident.

If I may entertain you for just a moment and we allow ourselves to believe the Whole War was about 'OIL' ~~ yes my friend ~~ nothing more and nothing less ~~ and everything else is a facade ~~

The 9/11 Report would have absolutely no bearing on this reality.

Q)What was the overwhelming basis of the Initial Assult?

A)Securing the OIL -- There is no way anyone could argue the facts and what transpired :D

But now you've gained my respect and I like your style :cool::cool:

[CountryBoy]

Everyone was playing off the same page when it came to intelligence reports on Iraq and WMD, Reps and Dems both and here is what the Dems were saying in the late 90's. This thing cuts both ways.

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003 | Source

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." - - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 | Source

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 | Source

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." - President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 | Source

"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction." - Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998 | Source

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." - Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998 | Source

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton. - (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998 | Source

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 | Source

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." - Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999 | Source

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them." - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002 | Source

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002 | Source

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." - Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002 | Source

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002 | Source

For some reason the sources didn't copy over, however if google doesn't give you the source of the quote, I'll be glad to post them also... but as the old saying goes.."Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for life."

Now we can dispute whether the best thing to have done was to wring our hands (Dems) or attack (Reps), but for goodness sakes, lets have some intellectural honesty here and not be so dadburn hypocritical. ;)

Everyone have a good 3 day weekend. :D

CB

[Silverbird]

Fool me once...shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me, fool me three times, I'm going to kick that ball, Lucy.
:p

[Steadygain]

Now we can dispute whether the best thing to have done was to wring our hands (Dems) or attack (Reps), but for goodness sakes, lets have some intellectual honesty here and not be so dadburn hypocritical. ;)

Everyone have a good 3 day weekend. :D

CB

You have a Great 3 Day -- weekend too my friend.

Wow -- thanks for taking the time to post all those findings... much appreciated !!

He's learning ~~ we're breakn' em in.

Fool me once...shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me, fool me three times, I'm going to kick that ball, Lucy.
:p

Always a pleasure Silverbird ;)

[CountryBoy]

You to Steady,

Just starting to mellow out to a little Midnite Cruiser from Steely Dan...ah the good ole college days, mellowing out after all the lab reports/HW are done. ;)

Have a good one bud,
CB

[phil]

Indeed, I agree completely with intellectual honesty. Where was the breakdown in intelligence? Let's find that. As we can see from what they were saying and WHEN they said it, most of the democrats also actually believed the administration when they were told that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

They didn't. Please read the 9/11 report, a bipartisan report from Congress.

End of story.

I think that this is one of the main reasons why President Obama is taking time to examine all the reports he's receiving from Afghanistan, rather than jumping in before all of the information is made available. It's a good idea. After we got snookered into invading Iraq, and after LBJ got snookered into Vietnam by listening to false intelligence, he's absolutely right.
Thankfully, JFK didn't bite on the Bay of Pigs fiasco. We'd still be fighting in Cuba if he had, I think.

The other question about connections between Iraq and Al-Qaeda: There were no real connections. Reference 9/11 report.


Everyone was playing off the same page when it came to intelligence reports on Iraq and WMD, Reps and Dems both and here is what the Dems were saying in the late 90's. This thing cuts both ways.

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003 | Source

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." - - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 | Source

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 | Source

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." - President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 | Source

"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction." - Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998 | Source

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." - Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998 | Source

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton. - (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998 | Source

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 | Source

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." - Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999 | Source

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them." - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002 | Source

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002 | Source

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." - Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002 | Source

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002 | Source

For some reason the sources didn't copy over, however if google doesn't give you the source of the quote, I'll be glad to post them also... but as the old saying goes.."Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for life."

Now we can dispute whether the best thing to have done was to wring our hands (Dems) or attack (Reps), but for goodness sakes, lets have some intellectural honesty here and not be so dadburn hypocritical. ;)

Everyone have a good 3 day weekend. :D

CB

[CountryBoy]

Dontcha just love 20/20 hindsight. And my trust in all politicians and what they say ranks right along side used car salesmen. :suspicious: I'm not that gullible and psst, I was on the grassy knoll also. ;)

[Steadygain]

End of story.

Hey Phil ---- if you're going to kick his ass....

please don't do it as a 3 day weekend is starting.....

and all the more on a Tread ... I started..:embarrest: WHEW GOOD RESPONSE CB ..... never mind

I think that this is one of the main reasons why President Obama is taking time to examine all the reports he's receiving from Afghanistan, rather than jumping in before all of the information is made available.

Here I'd have to agree with ya - but only in that specific.

I think Afghanistan is a HUGE MISTAKE --- and everything is showing Pakistan is far more involved with 'the Targets' the American Press tries to paint with Afg.

Do feel you're putting too many eggs in one basket (on 9/11) and personally I believe the 9/11 report would never be allowed to even remotely touch on 'my speculation'

It's a good idea. After we got snookered into invading Iraq, and after LBJ

LBJ was thrown into a Play -- fully in place by JFK my friend... please get it right :rolleyes:

got snookered into Vietnam by listening to false intelligence, he's absolutely right.

Thankfully, JFK didn't bite on the Bay of Pigs fiasco. We'd still be fighting in Cuba if he had, I think. Do you have any idea what you're saying?? Did you know we now have documented proof that JFK caused 'the fiasco' by sending a substantial number of troops to get rid of Castro. That's the whole reason why I keep stressing that The TRUTH can't possibly be known... until many years later when the 'Real Details' come out. He was given total assurance by the Joint Chiefs -- by the whole cabinet -- in his first meeting. Was told it'd be done 'under the table' and over and done with -- with no 'bad press'

IT FAILED!!! The soldiers were captured or killed and JFK refused to send 'Air Cover' to help. He turned his back on them and honestly believed if he acted like it didn't happen --- no one would know.

Then he specifically got his brother to go after Castro with the Mongoose Operation...

Poor Castro.... he's just trying to be a good man and take care of his people...

The other question about connections between Iraq and Al-Qaeda: There were no real connections. Reference 9/11 report.

Well then that most certainly ENDS that debate ..:D

OK - I'll give a point -- for your determination

[phil]

Sorry Steadygain, but I don't buy the bay of Pigs explanation. I do buy the idea of plausible deniability, but in the end, Kennedy got to sack Dulles for it.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/COLDbayofpigs.htm

Kennedy was told something that wasn't true at all. These guys really had no clue that the Cubans could fight back. Sounds familiar, don't it?

Gulf of Tonkin resolution was after Kennedy, when our Congress cut their own balls off. It took them 10 years to realize their mistake. 416 to 0. Talk about a catastrophe of epic proportions.

[Mcqlives]

Interesting thread...only thing I find hugely wrong with the below comments is the sympathetic lines on Castro. He is a responsible for the deaths of thousands of Cubans during his first months in power and can be blamed for many more deaths over the following decades. His power grab was one of those bloody little episodes that history often ignores.

[phil]

Yes. I agree. Causing the deaths of thousands of people is a terrible deed.

It would only be worse if he had created a war against a foreign nation to stay in power, then wasted an enormous amount of money and lives, both in his own country and around the world.

[Viva La Migra]

It would only be worse if he had created a war against a foreign nation to stay in power, then wasted an enormous amount of money and lives, both in his own country and around the world.
Of course I realize you are referring to President Clinton attacking Iraq on the eve of his impeachment vote...but I thought he only sent cruise missiles and bombers.

[phil]

I'm unsure. Did President Clinton kill thousands of people in Iraq? I know he mentioned that he tried to attack bin Laden, but was told that a war in Afghanistan was infeasible.

Of course I realize you are referring to President Clinton attacking Iraq on the eve of his impeachment vote...but I thought he only sent cruise missiles and bombers.

[Boghie]

I have to tell you all...

Operation Torch was an attack on countries that had nothing to do with WWII :p

We bombed France repeatedly in WWII.

Why?

Because thats where the Krauts were. :p

[Steadygain]

Interesting thread...only thing I find hugely wrong with the below comments is the sympathetic lines on Castro. He is a responsible for the deaths of thousands of Cubans during his first months in power and can be blamed for many more deaths over the following decades. His power grab was one of those bloody little episodes that history often ignores.


IT FAILED!!! The soldiers were captured or killed and JFK refused to send 'Air Cover' to help. He turned his back on them and honestly believed if he acted like it didn't happen --- no one would know.

Then he specifically got his brother to go after Castro with the Mongoose Operation...

Poor Castro.... he's just trying to be a good man and take care of his people...

Fortunately that one came from me :D

Please allow me to elaborate -- I DO NOT believe that a 'Super Power' has the right to deligate how every other Nation on the Globe should live - by virtue of their Undeniable Superior Stength.

Had your 'Excellent Comment' been the Basis for the USA to overthrow Castro - it could have been done 'Openly' and would have appeared far superior.

My POINT is simply that History AS IT IS - reveals JFK sent American Soldiers to overthrow Castro (in secret) - they were killed or captured and were totally ignored.

I personally consider that way more IMPEACHABLE than bugging some hotel room at Watergate... but this information remained hidden from the American Population.. so we all were allowed to celebrate one that was considered 'perhaps the Greatest President of all'

After totally failing at that -- he got his brother to make Overthrowing Castro as the 'top priority'

I personally DO NOT support Castro (and the things you'd mentioned) ~~ but I equally despise the huge amount of suffering inflicted on Cuba throughout the years by the USA.

Most power grabs are bloody -- but I appreciate your post -- actually more in line with my real beliefs.

[Steadygain]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/kennedys/transcript/ (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/kennedys/transcript/)

Shortly after his election, Kennedy had been told of a secret CIA plan to send an army to overthrow Fidel Castro and rid the western hemisphere of its first Communist regime.

Kennedy saw this as an opportunity to gain a huge Victory in the Cold War against Russia !!!! Politics my friend -- always about Politics

the CIA and Joint Chiefs assured Kennedy the invasion would succeed without revealing United States participation.

Kennedy gave the go-ahead for a landing at the Bay of Pigs to have Castro assassinated. But everything went wrong. When the landing foundered, Kennedy, fearful of revealing American involvement, refused to provide air support. 1,189 men were captured, 114 were killed.


Phil,
It's not me you have an arguement with --- it's simply me bringing to light details of what PBS showed to me.

Trust me - I doubt anyone could have been more 'shocked' than me. But with an open mind I began looking more deeply into the real details of Kennedy's whole life and subsequent Presidents as well.

Sorry Steadygain, but I don't buy the bay of Pigs explanation.

All I can ask is that you be willing to look at the 'real details' - the whole picture as the LINK above reveals.

Kennedy was told something that wasn't true at all.

Kennedy was out to make 'a name' at all costs...

gotta run --- but Phil I respect you and once I respect someone it's pretty hard to lose that

[Steadygain]

Yes. I agree. Causing the deaths of thousands of people is a terrible deed.

Yet for some reason many thousands are not granted the Media esteem... :mad:

It would only be worse if he had created a war against a foreign nation to stay in power, then wasted an enormous amount of money and lives, both in his own country and around the world.

It's very rare -- they would ever 'stay in power' -- because to 'Take Control' means you are 'responsible' for the entire population.

Much better to simply make your 'presense known' - do whatever you want to do - and not have to worry about the population's concerns or the general welfare. When you've done doing 'your thing' you can leave and it's over and done with.

I think it all comes down to MONEY --- as long as MONEY is more important than LIVES --- the world will remain as it has .... :(

[ezmoney]

The Kennedy's were like all politicians for the past fifty years power hungry and manipulative/conniving. Just like the government we have allowed in office the last fifty years. We love torment.:D

[phil]

There's no disagreement. The only part that was the problem was when he was told that this could be accomplished with no further involvement from us. That wasn't true, and the invasion failed. He knew (and here's the good part) that he was being sucked into getting involved in an unwinnable war. He had the brains and the guts to realize we couldn't win this one......and we got out.

He knew when to push (Cuban missile crises) and when to stop.

Phil,
It's not me you have an arguement with --- it's simply me bringing to light details of what PBS showed to me.

Trust me - I doubt anyone could have been more 'shocked' than me. But with an open mind I began looking more deeply into the real details of Kennedy's whole life and subsequent Presidents as well.



gotta run --- but Phil I respect you and once I respect someone it's pretty hard to lose that

[Steadygain]

There's no disagreement.

Thanks for your response

The only part that was the problem was when he was told that this could be accomplished with no further involvement from us. That wasn't true, and the invasion failed.

Actually when you consider how long this plan had been in operation and the number of high 'long standing' significant officials telling him this --- It would be very hard not to believe this.

He knew (and here's the good part) that he was being sucked into getting involved in an unwinnable war.

CLOSE - But you'll be totally floored with what I'm about to tell you. He had every reason to think some pin head sized island right off our coast would have absolutely 'no chance' if push came to shove.

THE 'UNWINNABLE WAR' is the very one he himself decided needed to be actively engaged way over in Vietnam -- to show the world (Russia) we were a credible Nation.

He had the brains and the guts to realize we couldn't win this one......and we got out.

He had the Brains to realize he could use some of the very best Servicemen available to get rid of Castro - overthrow the government and come out looking 'Fantastic and Unbeatable' especially when everything was done under the table.

He had NO GUTS -- to give those Servicemen the help they needed. He could have won - but he refused to give air cover and totally abandoned the men he sent.

I realize you were USMC - but no clue how much actual 'combat' you've actively engaged in. Makes all the difference to me. From my prespective Kennedy deliberately sent 'our best' into battle and completely ignored them when they got in trouble.

My guess is Counter Intelligence tipped them off and they were waiting and they had every right to protect themselves...

He knew when to push (Cuban missile crises) and when to stop.

He was s***ing his pants the whole time ---- and let's hope we never have a Nuclear Stand Off like that again.

Anyway --- good conversation.

Later man -- gotta lot of charts ta catch up on

[phil]

I'm not a believer in delivering democracy.....or whatever from the barrel of a gun. If the Cubans wanted to be free, as you say, then I think they would have already done it, don't you?

After the former Soviet Union became unraveled, why didn't they just collapse.

I think it's probably a little more complicated than that.

[Intrepid_Investor]

Oops, wrong tread.......

[Viva La Migra]

I'm not a believer in delivering democracy.....or whatever from the barrel of a gun. If the Cubans wanted to be free, as you say, then I think they would have already done it, don't you?

After the former Soviet Union became unraveled, why didn't they just collapse.

I think it's probably a little more complicated than that.
Castro confiscated all guns after the revolution, then he made sure his soldiers were the best paid and fed group of people in the country to ensure their loyalty. What would the people do to rise up against him and his well armed military?

[Steadygain]

I'm not a believer in delivering democracy.....or whatever from the barrel of a gun.

Oh my gosh -- I really am beginning to believe you are from another planet ... or have suffered some fairly significant brain damage.

You are something else man.... :rolleyes:

If the Cubans wanted to be free, as you say,
As I say ???

Everyone would like to be FREE - All Americans (N,C,S); Cubans, Hattians; Koreans, Chinese.....

WHO WOULDN'T WANT TO ENJOY 'FREEDOM' ??

then I think they would have already done it, don't you?

No PHIL !! I actually DO NOT believe 'freedom' is merely a process of thought :mad: I do not believe having 'Real Freedom' is that simple a process... I am convinced there are REAL POWERS and FORCES in PLAY -- actively preventing the masses from knowing Freedom.

After the former Soviet Union became unraveled, why didn't they just collapse.

Are you suggesting their unraveling resulted in Freedom and Prosperity for the masses at large ??

Are you saying they 'Sprang to Life' as a result of the 'unraveling'

Enlighten us ---- oh great one ...... fill us in.

I think it's probably a little more complicated than that.

Well you are undoubtedly the only one smart enough to bring the rest of us 'up to par'

Cause we think it's way more 'simple' than 'complicated'

You either have TOTAL FREEDOM - or you don't have FREEDOM at all

So..... hummmm...... what is Freedom ?? Phil ???

Tell us about it my friend .... we are like eager rabbits chomping at the bit...

[phil]

Well thanks for the compliment. Thanks for making it personal. It really reinforces your argument. Total freedom in what sense? Our society is based upon the rule of law, isn't it? No one is totally free at all, as far as I can tell. It seems that we have a disagreement about terms.

The Soviets went into Afghanistan, as they saw it, to liberate the country. Maybe you can tell me what you think is total freedom? Me, I think they were wrong to try to liberate the country at the point of a rifle. Have we not had the same success in countries that we've "liberated"?

Oh, and you're right. It is simple, not complicated. We invaded several countries and tried to impose our will. Freedom for me would be the freedom from having to pay a trillion dollars in taxes and lose thousands of lives. Then again, we learned the same lesson in Vietnam. We were just trying to provide freedom. Look what it got us.

Well you are undoubtedly the only one smart enough to bring the rest of us 'up to par'

Cause we think it's way more 'simple' than 'complicated'

You either have TOTAL FREEDOM - or you don't have FREEDOM at all

So..... hummmm...... what is Freedom ?? Phil ???

Tell us about it my friend .... we are like eager rabbits chomping at the bit...

[WorkFE]

Has anyone seen my dog? I've lost my dog.

[RunningFool]

Has anyone seen my dog? I've lost my dog.

What color is he?

[Steadygain]

Well thanks for the compliment.

No problem honey bunch

Thanks for making it personal.

Don't take anything I say 'personal' take it with a grain of salt...

enjoy me and let me enjoy you ;)

It really reinforces your argument.

I have an 'argument' -- why I find them adversive -- degrading ... insulting....

Man ya got me wrong I'm like Mr Chill to the max..

Total freedom in what sense? Our society is based upon the rule of law, isn't it?
How would I know ???

Not sure what the rule of law is ?? Who brought it into being, who interprets it ?? I mean look at the stuff that goes on here...

No one is totally free at all, as far as I can tell.

Ha haaa -- take that MBers -- there is no such thing as 'Freedom'

It seems that we have a disagreement about terms.

Well tell me what my terms are .... spell them out .... and tell me what yours are and may be we can come to an agreement ...

I'm willing to come half way ... if you are

The Soviets went into Afghanistan, as they saw it, to liberate the country.

Well that's the same ole story --- over and over --- the aggressor usually always 'Says and actually believes' they are doing it for the right reason....:mad:


Maybe you can tell me what you think is total freedom?

Well it will take awhile .... my defination is pretty extensive

Me, I think they were wrong to try to liberate the country at the point of a rifle.

I would say we have to define what 'Liberate' is

Maybe that was not the goal -- maybe the greedy bastards just wanted to take control and pretend it was for their own good.

Have we not had the same success in countries that we've "liberated"?

Again I would have to ask 'What is Liberate' and who have 'we' Liberated ????

Oh, and you're right. It is simple, not complicated.

Thank you honey .... see I knew we could get along :)

We invaded several countries and tried to impose our will.

Not sure how that's 'Liberating them' -- care to explain

Freedom for me would be the freedom from having to pay a trillion dollars in taxes and lose thousands of lives.

OK - Freedom for you is 'lack of taxes and more people living'

I see it as a lot more than that

Then again, we learned the same lesson in Vietnam.

'WE' -- what lesson did 'we' learn ??

We were just trying to provide freedom. Look what it got us.

Are we trying to provide freedom --- eliminate taxes and give them longer lives ????

Or are we determined to take their 'Freedom' at all costs so we can shove our 'agenda' down their throats ???

I can't see.... what did it get us ??

[WorkFE]

What color is he?

Since you asked, he's red, white and blue and he bites realy hard. He's also pretty cuddly and when you don't antagonize him he will do just about anything to make you happy. He runs off alot because he enjoys his freedom. Of course where he is from he's aloud to do that. Must be nice.

[coolhand]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/28262.html

[Buster]

Since you asked, he's red, white and blue and he bites realy hard. He's also pretty cuddly and when you don't antagonize him he will do just about anything to make you happy. He runs off alot because he enjoys his freedom. Of course where he is from he's aloud to do that. Must be nice.
Allow me to make a joke.. in good spirit of course.:D

When I lived back in Indiana on the Ohio river across from Kentucky..There was this Kentucky family of Boys and one sister and their widower Father..One day the sister came home after being on a date with a young fella from across the river over in Hoosierland...well the Family just couldn't cabbage on to the idear that one of their kin folk was minglin with a Hoosier boy..So the Father sent his boys North across the river to teach that Hoosier a lesson or two and to stay away from their kind...And he sent them on their way with a parting word that the boy's name they'd be lookin for was Clarence....an hour or two later the boys returned with long faces and looks of shame...the Father asked if they squared things away with Clarence..they said; "heck NO paw!..When we got to the river, the sign above the bridge said CAUTION: CLEARENCE 16'4"..so we figured we ain't messing with no one that big..."

[PessOptimist]

Allow me to make a joke.. in good spirit of course.:D

When I lived back in Indiana on the Ohio river across from Kentucky..There was this Kentucky family of Boys and one sister and their widower Father..One day the sister came home after being on a date with a young fella from across the river over in Hoosierland...well the Family just couldn't cabbage on to the idear that one of their kin folk was minglin with a Hoosier boy..So the Father sent his boys North across the river to teach that Hoosier a lesson or two and to stay away from their kind...And he sent them on their way with a parting word that the boy's name they'd be lookin for was Clarence....an hour or two later the boys returned with long faces and looks of shame...the Father asked if they squared things away with Clarence..they said; "heck NO paw!..When we got to the river, the sign above the bridge said CAUTION: CLEARENCE 16'4"..so we figured we ain't messing with no one that big..."

Buster, from my time in Hubriar Heights, I love a good briar joke. I have also loved a good many briars. The salt of the earth.

[coolhand]

Geopolitical realities have a way of pushing Presidents towards the center.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/10/14/liberals-growing-frustrated-dismayed-obamas-style-performance/

[Show-me]

Barack Obama: President Pantywaist – new surrender monkey on the block

President Barack Obama (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/) has recently completed the most successful foreign policy tour since Napoleon’s retreat from Moscow. You name it, he blew it. What was his big deal economic programme that he was determined to drive through the G20 summit? Another massive stimulus package, globally funded and co-ordinated. Did he achieve it? Not so as you’d notice.

Barack is not the first New World ingenue to discover that European leaders will load him with praise, struggle sycophantically to be photographed with him and outdo him in Utopian rhetoric. But when it comes to the critical moment of opening their wallets – suddenly it is flag-day in Aberdeen. Okay, put the G20 down to inexperience, beginner’s nerves, what you will.


On to Nato and the next big objective: to persuade the same European evasion experts that America, Britain and Canada should no longer bear the brunt of the Afghan struggle virtually unassisted. The Old World sucked through its teeth, said that was asking a lot – but, seeing it was Barack, to whom they could refuse nothing, they would graciously accede to his wishes.


So The One retired triumphant, having secured a massive contribution of 5,000 extra troops – all of them non-combatant, of course – which must really have put the wind up the Taliban, at the prospect of 5,000 more infidel cooks and bottle-washers swarming into the less hazardous regions of Afghanistan.


Then came the dramatic bit, the authentic West Wing script, with the President wakened in the middle of the night in Prague to be told that Kim Jong-il had just launched a Taepodong-2 missile. America had Aegis destroyers tracking the missile and could have shot it down. But Uncle Sam had a sterner reprisal in store for l’il ole Kim (as Dame Edna might call him): a multi-megaton strike of Obama hot air.


“Rules must be binding,” declared Obama, referring to the fact that Kim had just breached UN Resolutions 1695 and 1718. “Violations must be punished.” (Sounds ominous.) “Words must mean something.” (Why, Barack? They never did before, for you – as a cursory glance at your many speeches will show.)


President Pantywaist is hopping mad and he has a strategy to cut Kim down to size: he is going to slice $1.4bn off America’s missile defence programme, presumably on the calculation that Kim would feel it unsporting to hit a sitting duck, so that will spoil his fun.


Watch out, France and Co, there is a new surrender monkey on the block and, over the next four years, he will spectacularly sell out the interests of the West with every kind of liberal-delusionist initiative on nuclear disarmament and sitting down to negotiate with any power freak who wants to buy time to get a good ICBM fix on San Francisco, or wherever. If you thought the world was a tad unsafe with Dubya around, just wait until President Pantywaist gets into his stride.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/9441479/Barack_Obama_President_Pantywaist__new_surrender_m onkey_on_the_block/

[Show-me]

Barack Obama and the CIA: why does President Pantywaist hate America so badly?

If al-Qaeda, the Taliban and the rest of the Looney Tunes brigade want to kick America to death, they had better move in quickly and grab a piece of the action before Barack Obama finishes the job himself. Never in the history of the United States has a president worked so actively against the interests of his own people – not even Jimmy Carter.


Obama’s problem is that he does not know who the enemy is. To him, the enemy does not squat in caves in Waziristan, clutching automatic weapons and reciting the more militant verses from the Koran: instead, it sits around at tea parties in Kentucky quoting from the US Constitution. Obama is not at war with terrorists, but with his Republican fellow citizens. He has never abandoned the campaign trail.


That is why he opened Pandora’s Box by publishing the Justice Department’s legal opinions on waterboarding and other hardline interrogation techniques. He cynically subordinated the national interest to his partisan desire to embarrass the Republicans. Then he had to rush to Langley, Virginia to try to reassure a demoralised CIA that had just discovered the President of the United States was an even more formidable foe than al-Qaeda.


“Don’t be discouraged by what’s happened the last few weeks,” he told intelligence officers. Is he kidding? Thanks to him, al-Qaeda knows the private interrogation techniques available to the US intelligence agencies and can train its operatives to withstand them – or would do so, if they had not already been outlawed.


So, next time a senior al-Qaeda hood is captured, all the CIA can do is ask him nicely if he would care to reveal when a major population centre is due to be hit by a terror spectacular, or which American city is about to be irradiated by a dirty bomb. Your view of this situation will be dictated by one simple criterion: whether or not you watched the people jumping from the twin towers.


Obama promised his CIA audience that nobody would be prosecuted for past actions. That has already been contradicted by leftist groups with a revanchist ambition to put Republicans, headed if possible by Condoleezza Rice, in the dock. Talk about playing party politics with national security. Martin Scheinin, the United Nations special investigator for human rights, claims that senior figures, including former vice president Dick Cheney, could face prosecution overseas. Ponder that – once you have got over the difficulty of locating the United Nations and human rights within the same dimension.


President Pantywaist Obama should have thought twice before sitting down to play poker with Dick Cheney. The former vice president believes documents have been selectively published and that releasing more will prove how effective the interrogation techniques were. Under Dubya’s administration, there was no further atrocity on American soil after 9/11.


President Pantywaist’s recent world tour, cosying up to all the bad guys, excited the ambitions of America’s enemies. Here, they realised, is a sucker they can really take to the cleaners. His only enemies are fellow Americans. Which prompts the question: why does President Pantywaist hate America so badly?

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/9614177/Barack_Obama_and_the_CIA_why_does_President_Pantyw aist_hate_America_so_badly/

[phil]

My sentiments exactly, and I can see that you agree. We've engaged in a series of foreign adventures that have only served to beggar us completely. Over a trillion dollars spent, and we're less secure today than we were yesterday, by far. Both economically and physically.

There's a great movie (John McCain is in it) called Why We Fight that I think you should watch. It's interesting.

Me, I think that President Obama has quite a lot to take care of here, and it's going to take a long time to make things right.

Are we trying to provide freedom --- eliminate taxes and give them longer lives ????

Or are we determined to take their 'Freedom' at all costs so we can shove our 'agenda' down their throats ???

I can't see.... what did it get us ??

[Steadygain]

My sentiments exactly, and I can see that you agree.

Phi - my friend - of course I agree with many of your views !! :)

I'm glad I didn't chase you away --- honestly.

You asked, 'What is Freedom' and I've given that a lot of thought...

Freedom is the absense of Fear and the Thrill of hope

I believe it has to involve someone esle ....

The absense of FEAR of 'Rejection, Judgement, Hunger .....

The thrill of the HOPE of 'Acceptance, Understanding .....


Phil, the very best we can do is except the fact that our perception of 'Reality' may differ from others .... and it is NOT our place to make everyone else sound like they are 'off' and 'we' are here to set them on the right course.

The BEST we can do is 'except them' as they are and hope they can except us. If anyone tries to come across as 'Knowing what's right' or 'Living in the Truth' or 'Being a Realist' --- that is equally something we can never 'shove down their throats'

First and foremost we need to gain their respect and hope we can earn our own respect. Only after we confront each other in this manner will our conversations be appropriate. Without that it will be bickering -- and opposing parties digging their heels deeper in the sand.

[CountryBoy]

Geithner aides made millions on Wall Street

Mr Sperling’s compensation from Goldman was for work on a philanthropic project. His overall pay, including for his main job at the Council on Foreign Relations, totalled $2.2m in the 13 months to January.

The forms, which were first obtained by Bloomberg, showed that Matthew Kabaker, another adviser in the Treasury, earned $5.8m at Blackstone, the private equity firm, in the two years before joining the administration to work on plans to support banks and spur lending. Much of the compensation was in stock.

Lewis Alexander, another adviser, was chief economist to Citigroup before joining the administration; he was paid $2.4m in the last two years.

Even though some of the officials whose previous salaries were disclosed are senior, many were appointed as “counselors”, meaning they escaped Senate confirmation hearings which could have highlighted their past remuneration and employment at a time of heightened animosity towards the financial industry.


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f012c4b2-b8f6-11de-98ee-00144feab49a.html

Hmmm the "counselors" dodged Senate confirmation, it makes one wonder how dirty the Czars are since they also dodged Senate confirmation and allow the American people a chance to know the type of people that are running the US. You'd be amazed what these "Czars" believe and stand for. :mad:

CB

[Birchtree]

Hey, excuse me but did someone say "he blew it"? That sounds like a politically correct felatio pun - did I get that right? Where is Lewis Sinclair anyway.

[Steadygain]

Geithner aides made millions on Wall Street

Mr Sperling, Matthew Kabaker, Lewis Alexander...

CB - It's even worse than you think ....

They are deeply connected in many ways the average guy like you and me could never even begin to think or imagine...

They have access to things... accounts... priviledges and perks that they alone will ever appreciate and enjoy...

ALWAYS --- looking out for one another

You'd be amazed what these "Czars" believe and stand for. :mad:

CB

They are one and the same to me CB ....

When you 'join the club' then 'The Club' is everything and everything else is completely insignificant. The masses are only there to make it happen -- suffering and pain -- brings endless surplus and delight

[CountryBoy]

They are one and the same to me CB ....

When you 'join the club' then 'The Club' is everything and everything else is completely insignificant. The masses are only there to make it happen -- suffering and pain -- brings endless surplus and delight

You got that right Bud and I see the day that the internet will be under the full control of the Gov't. They'll maufacture some crisis, where they'll say they need to take over for our own good and security. Administrations have been doing this for decades, but I think this time, the result of the phony crisis, Thomas Jefferson's words will prove prophetic.

CB

[grandma]

... The masses are only there to make it happen -- suffering and pain -- brings endless surplus and delight
This link may be more appropriate here, than where I had originally placed it.. It is hard for me to change my belief that `we masses' can bring about change (except at the polls) even with persistent contact with our Reps & Senators. However, there was an article this week about a woman who was visiting the offices of those same folks last month, was verbally treated rudely, even had Security called on her twice (same officer, who treated her kindly.) There was nothing in the article to indicate she was doing anything other than asking the clerks if they would forward her message to the respective office holders.
Using the word `change' is almost divisive to me because of its now `Great Historic Mandate' .... see link....
http://tinyurl.com/yhrw999 (http://tinyurl.com/yhrw999)

[CountryBoy]

This link may be more appropriate here, than where I had originally placed it.. It is hard for me to change my belief that `we masses' can bring about change (except at the polls) even with persistent contact with our Reps & Senators. However, there was an article this week about a woman who was visiting the offices of those same folks last month, was verbally treated rudely, even had Security called on her twice (same officer, who treated her kindly.) There was nothing in the article to indicate she was doing anything other than asking the clerks if they would forward her message to the respective office holders.
Using the word `change' is almost divisive to me because of its now `Great Historic Mandate' .... see link....
http://tinyurl.com/yhrw999 (http://tinyurl.com/yhrw999)

Thanks for the link grandma,

It really puts things out their in the open, and just think, a little research, by individuals and the msm, prior to the election would've brought some of those stances and beliefs to light.

CB

[Steadygain]

This link may be more appropriate here, than where I had originally placed it..

The LINK is a MUST READ !!!

It is hard for me to change my belief that `we masses' can bring about change (except at the polls)
I know what you're saying and it 'sounds good' and something we've all been grounded into believing from birth.

But in my view --- the polls make little to no difference because it's one big circus and the Politicians are pretty much all the same.

even with persistent contact with our Reps & Senators.
I don't mean to discourage ya -- but the same Reps & Senators spin on the Merry Go Round and it just goes on and on ...

a woman who was visiting the offices of those same folks last month,
was verbally (SORRY READ THAT AS VERBALLY ABUSED)
Because she is both 'insignificant' and because she is a 'woman'

treated rudely,
Same reason - and this is NOT my VIEW ---
But if they become 'pests' then they'll be dealt with accordingly

even had Security called on her twice
(same officer, who treated her kindly.) When (and if that gets out) the officer is GONE.

nothing to indicate she was doing anything other than asking the clerks if they would forward her message to the respective office holders.

A decent law abiding 'tax paying' citizen -- can be viewed as a rambling air bag...:mad:

I hope you know I'm only seeing from 'their perspective'
Using the word `change' is almost divisive to me because of its now `Great Historic Mandate' .... see link....
http://tinyurl.com/yhrw999 (http://tinyurl.com/yhrw999)

It is one of the BEST LINKS I've seen since being on the MB -- Birch, Show-me, wow .... tons of others will love it.

BTW --- I remember it like yesterday... was a Tuesday Night when I heard the commotion and witnessed first hand a Rein Deer ran over you. ;)

[coolhand]

This link may be more appropriate here, than where I had originally placed it.. It is hard for me to change my belief that `we masses' can bring about change (except at the polls) even with persistent contact with our Reps & Senators. However, there was an article this week about a woman who was visiting the offices of those same folks last month, was verbally treated rudely, even had Security called on her twice (same officer, who treated her kindly.) There was nothing in the article to indicate she was doing anything other than asking the clerks if they would forward her message to the respective office holders.
Using the word `change' is almost divisive to me because of its now `Great Historic Mandate' .... see link....
http://tinyurl.com/yhrw999 (http://tinyurl.com/yhrw999)

When I saw who wrote this I immediately recognized the name, but couldn't quite put my finger on who she was. Then I looked it up and it hit me. She was the biggest force behind the destruction of NOW and the ERA. I love her writing!

http://www.eagleforum.org/misc/bio.html#

Thanks Grandma

[Viva La Migra]

This link may be more appropriate here, than where I had originally placed it.. It is hard for me to change my belief that `we masses' can bring about change (except at the polls) even with persistent contact with our Reps & Senators. However, there was an article this week about a woman who was visiting the offices of those same folks last month, was verbally treated rudely, even had Security called on her twice (same officer, who treated her kindly.) There was nothing in the article to indicate she was doing anything other than asking the clerks if they would forward her message to the respective office holders.
Using the word `change' is almost divisive to me because of its now `Great Historic Mandate' .... see link....
http://tinyurl.com/yhrw999 (http://tinyurl.com/yhrw999)
Elections would mean more if there was a requirement to prove citizenship and therefore eligibility to vote. As it is now, there is no such requirement, so God only knows for sure if legal and illegal aliens are voting in our elections. For all we know, China could have voted BHO into office!

[grandma]

Elections would mean more if there was a requirement to prove citizenship and therefore eligibility to vote. As it is now, there is no such requirement, so God only knows for sure if legal and illegal aliens are voting in our elections. For all we know, China could have voted BHO into office!
When I vote I have to show my Registration - here we have to register one party or another to get to vote in the Primaries. However, somehow- ter'other the ACLU and other factions decided it was an infringement to ask for picture ID (such as a Driver's Licence) before you can get to the table/booth. :sick:

p.s. - I am glad the link to EagleForum was useful...

[Buster]

Works for me........................................NOT!

AIiMa2Fe-ZQ&feature=related

[CountryBoy]

U.S. troop funds diverted to pet projects

Senators diverted $2.6 billion in funds in a defense spending bill to pet projects largely at the expense of accounts that pay for fuel, ammunition and training for U.S. troops, including those fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to an analysis.

Among the 778 such projects, known as earmarks, packed into the bill: $25 million for a new World War II museum at the University of New Orleans and $20 million to launch an educational institute named after the late Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, Massachusetts Democrat.

While earmarks are hardly new in Washington, "in 30 years on Capitol Hill, I never saw Congress mangle the defense budget as badly as this year," said Winslow Wheeler, a former Senate staffer who worked on defense funding and oversight for both Republicans and Democrats. He is now a senior fellow at the Center for Defense Information, an independent research organization.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/15/troop-funds-diverted-to-pet-projects/

This is disgusting. So much for no Pork.:mad:

CB

[phil]

http://www.costofwar.com/

This is the amout we've spent in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. We're approaching a trillion dollars. We could also consider whether the war in Iraq was even necessary. It didn't serve to weaken Al-Qaeda. We know that now. A trillion dollars seems to me like a lot of money.

[Show-me]

http://www.costofwar.com/

This is the amout we've spent in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. We're approaching a trillion dollars. We could also consider whether the war in Iraq was even necessary. It didn't serve to weaken Al-Qaeda. We know that now. A trillion dollars seems to me like a lot of money.

Phil,

That kind of thinking brought about the idiom "Can't see the forest for the trees." This is why I support the "FairTax" system, third party candidates, and the Tea Party folks.

Wars are expensive and I don't agree with the spending in this war but we need to change the status quo in Washington that $2.3 billion, or what ever, is a drop in the bucket compared to the greater scheme of things. Stop all the pork and make bills singular and stand on their own merits, singularly.

Have a great day.

[Show-me]

Phil,

We NEED change and it ain't BHO. It will be someone outside the two royal family/party system. All we get each election is tit for tat.

[phil]

Well, let's do the math. 2.3 billion is what part of a trillion? A trillion would be a thousand billion, wouldn't it? So this would be about 2.3 out of around a thousand billion that we've already spent on these foreign adventures.

How about let's let the war in Iraq stand on its own merit? I think that would be a much better plan. What we've discovered is that now someone else is building nuclear weapons in the region. My aching back. All that we succeeded in doing by invading Iraq was to make Iran even stronger. Previously, the Iranians couldn't invest in nuclear technology. If they did, then it would probably cause the Iraqis to do something.


Phil,

That kind of thinking brought about the idiom "Can't see the forest for the trees." This is why I support the "FairTax" system, third party candidates, and the Tea Party folks.

Wars are expensive and I don't agree with the spending in this war but we need to change the status quo in Washington that $2.3 billion, or what ever, is a drop in the bucket compared to the greater scheme of things. Stop all the pork and make bills singular and stand on their own merits, singularly.

Have a great day.

[Steadygain]

U.S. troop funds diverted to pet projects

I think that is WONDERFUL !!!

How much more money do 'we need to spend' on Wars with no end simply to prove we are the 'ultimate control freak' and indeed 'we' would have to be considered the 'ultimate terrorists'

Do you see any other Nation doing more at the expense of all other Nations and all other people ---- simply to serve their self interests?

Senators diverted $2.6 billion in funds in a defense spending bill to pet projects largely at the expense of accounts that pay for fuel, ammunition and training for U.S. troops, including those fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to an analysis.

I would say at least $2.6 Billion that apparently went to the cause of the Iraq War was 'never accounted for'.... hummm just disappeared.

Plus why not admit the truth -- We went there wholly for 'our own good' AND not the 'good of the world' AND it was a mistake and appologize to everyone --- admit we do not have the power or the authority to totally change Cultures and People's Lives that are thousands of years older than our own --- and withdraw and try to focus on Smarter Approaches --- instead of always thinking Bombs and Brutal Force are the most superior way ---- ummm the US Way.

Among the 778 such projects, known as earmarks, packed into the bill: $25 million for a new World War II museum at the University of New Orleans

World War II - had some merit to it !!!

Maybe they should have waited another year so no one from that war would be alive to know about it.

and $20 million to launch an educational institute named after the late Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, Massachusetts Democrat.

Education is the LAST THING the USA should be pushing .... you're right CB --- this flies in the face of what we are known for !

While earmarks are hardly new in Washington, "in 30 years on Capitol Hill, I never saw Congress mangle the defense budget as badly as this year," said Winslow Wheeler, a former Senate staffer who worked on defense funding and oversight for both Republicans and Democrats.

Well WINSLOW WHEELER --- No one more presents 'America' as a whole than you. Would it not be a lot cheaper to simply 'Nuke' the whole Mid East and establish ways of taking the OIL without radiation -- or forcing the populations near that area to get it and laugh at them when radiation destroys them?????

How much money does 'The Defense Budget' need to put all people under total control of the USA. How many 'Reservations' can we find throughout the globe to put the 'less deserving' in their place??

He is now a senior fellow at the Center for Defense Information, an independent research organization.

Interesting CB - But it's very obvious where he stands and how his life and carreer shape his thinking.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/15/troop-funds-diverted-to-pet-projects/

This is disgusting. So much for no Pork.:mad:

CB

Well that is a matter of 'opinion' ---- perhaps nothing is either disgusting or not disgusting ---- but is way more a reflection of the way a person thinks.

Me --- I kind of like what you shared :D:D

http://www.costofwar.com/

This is the amout we've spent in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. We're approaching a trillion dollars.

Ohh Phil -- a man of integrity -- who is willing to Stand for Something Better -- even at the risk of rejection.

Phil - I absolutely PROMISE YOU that the MONEY spent in the Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq would be at least 8 to 10 Trillion so far.

Maybe you are simply reflecting on what Obama's Administration has spent. Please PHIL --- I'm begging you --- whenever you talk about what we've spent on those WARS --- you have to include all the Money the BUSH ADMINISTRATION USED.

We could also consider whether the war in Iraq was even necessary.

It was as neccessary as the Previous Big War that lasted forever .... the USA has to show the World at Large... that the Politicians still have the 'Power' to do whatever they want....

And the Good old Wars like Korea -- are a thing of the past Phil. Today is a different day --- a totally different era --- now we engage in Wars that have 'No End' -- where the USA can never say 'We Won'

Winning no longer means anything ---- we are simply out to show our power and push 'our agenda' until we get too tired to do it anymore --- or stop when we are good and ready.

It didn't serve to weaken Al-Qaeda. We know that now.

Well let's just pretend that the Big and Unchallengable Super Power was Pakistan .... and they came over to the Weak and Essentially Defenseless USA and started bombing us and taking whatever they felt like taking and forceing us to change our long standing heritiage to think like them.....

Now let's say that some of us got together and formed groups to resist.... How would those groups be viewed .... Al-Qaeda ??? and the more this Aggressive Super Power went around the world doing whatever they wanted ---- totally at the expense of the world population at large... the more other 'Resistence Groups' would form.

Hostility --- breeds Hostility

A trillion dollars seems to me like a lot of money.

It's nothing Phil and neither is 10 Trillion dollars ---- it does not count for even the slightest amount of worth if it all goes down the drain !!!!

Where has the 10 Trillion gone ..... ???? Have we fully achieved all the 'Wonderful and Long Range' Objectives we've apparently set out to do from the very beginning ????

Or was it all essentially a Waste of Energy (other than the OIL we took and still take) Lives, and Money???

[Steadygain]

Phil,

We NEED change and it ain't BHO. It will be someone outside the two royal family/party system. All we get each election is tit for tat.

You're RIGHT -- Show-me

We NEEDED the Biggest CHANGE We could get

The TOPIC - Phil is stressing had everything to do with Bush

Nothing to do with BHO ---- BHO was the 'one' and about the only one who said NO!!! to the Iraq War.

This NEED for CHANGE is what got him elected....

that is how the American Population as a whole believes

that is more what pushed me to back BHO than anything else.

And yes we all know (all least all of us smart enought to realize that Dem/Rep are all the same)

It is tit for tat --- but it's all WE have to WORK WITH

SO -- THE ONLY CHOICE WE HAD WAS BUSH III
and God knows we had more than enough of BUSH II

or BHO

Thank you -- thank you ladies and gentlemen -- and we hoped you enjoyed the show

[grandma]

Phil - it is painful to realize that your stance is that because you don't approve of US troopers in Afghanistan you would knowingly, willingly, and probably Very Excitably: Throw Them To The Wolves! I know that, because your responses always go back to your LP record of the same thing. I must add that the prayers that are said daily by multiple hundreds of thousands of folks across the planet for troopers' wisdom & discernment in their daily actions, along with their safety, will in the end win out.

"These are the accounts that pay for troop training, repairs, spares and supplies for vehicles, weapons, ships and planes, food and fuel," Mr. Wheeler said.
Raiding those accounts to fund big-ticket projects the military does not want, but that benefit ... " (Senator's home states... I lost the rest of that copy/paste.)

How can you justify taking part in TSP? It is USA. & don't respond calling me names: I've seen the website telling Liberals how to identify those of us who are opposed to much/ or even any of Pres. Obama's plans & how to `deactivate' us. I have also read the quotes on their mailings telling me I am a Nazi, UnAmerican, among other things. I have read their taking as fact any rumor, story, that their kind kind dream up for News Fodder, WITHOUT checking any of it out before blasting away. And before you accuse me, personally, of too much TV, Radio - I have neither one.
I find the newspapers give a vast amount more information (without the facial innuendos) & the By-line lets the reader know where the news is coming from & what to expect in way of personal agenda; and the internet news digest sites give ALL views -

[Steadygain]

Phil - it is painful to realize that your stance is that because you don't approve of US troopers in Afghanistan you would knowingly, willingly, and probably Very Excitably: Throw Them To The Wolves!

Grandma -- forgive me for butting in -- but I have been wondering this very thing and reflected on a lot of what he's expressed.

First -- want ya to know I think you're wonderful !!

The facts pretty much boil down to 2 things -- you can be in the USMC, Army, Navy... and the whole gammit and wind up spending year after year 'simply wearing a uniform' -- but never really know what it is to be a Soldier -- through and through.

Or you can be a Soldier through and through -- and everything else is secondary (the Branch/Uniform) and pretty much meaningless.

I think that's probably why the expressions seem so out of wack.

[CountryBoy]

Sorry Steady,
I don’t find it th
e least bit wonderful that money that was suppose to pay for fuel, ammunition and training for U.S. troops is diverted to launch an educational institute named after the late Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, Massachusetts Democrat. He had the morals of a snake and I find it disgusting that my tax dollars are being directed from the protection of our troops to this monument of honoring a “man” who was a pervert and sexual predator and only dodged prison time because of his name.

These men and women were sent their by politicians of both sides and now to just abandon them and under supply them is beyond the pale. If I had any hand in their reduction in the ability to defend themselves, I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night, but then we know how little our pols think of our opinions or values. When I took my job 25 years ago, I took a pledge to defend the country against enemies of the state, inside and outside and again I wonder who the enemies to our Constitution really are. Yep I've said it again and will continue to voice my opinions as long as we're free from censorship or worse!:mad:

CB

[Steadygain]

Sorry Steady,
I don’t find it the least bit wonderful that money that was suppose to pay for fuel, ammunition and training for U.S. troops is diverted to launch an educational institute named after the late Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, Massachusetts Democrat.

Oh CB --- this would have been so much better --- than being run through the 'ringer'

Ahh my friend I don't think it's wonderful either -- just kind of yanking the chain

He had the morals of a snake and I find it disgusting that my tax dollars are being directed from the protection of our troops to this monument of honoring a “man” who was a pervert and sexual predator and only dodged prison time because of his name.

:D:D Now that's where I had 'the FUN' cause all I had to do was focus on 'The Education' and ignore the name - cause in this situation I knew the 'real focus' was an Educational Institute.

Now bear with me -- for just a moment --- this may turn out to be one of the BEST educational institutes ever made....

BUT --- I do love your description and dag blasted why in the hell they didn't name it after Birch -- I'll never know.

These men and women were sent their by politicians of both sides and now to just abandon them and under supply them is beyond the pale.

CB - If I had anything to do with it no Politician would ever be able to serve as 'a leader' without much better qualifications.

They don't care CB -- never have and never will --- it's all a huge game to them - Power and Control --- and putting on a good image.

If I had any hand in their reduction in the ability to defend themselves, I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night,

JFK would have been pubicly hung with the crap he did.

There's a big difference between you and them -- you are more qualified to be a leader (even if you are a bit of a pansy ass)

but then we know how little our pols think of our opinions or values.

Not true -- as long as they 'get our votes' they'll make our hearts melt

When I took my job 25 years ago, I took a pledge to defend the country against enemies of the state, inside and outside and again I wonder who the enemies to our Constitution really are.

Well you'd probably enjoy my 'real ranting and raving' in another Thread today

Yep I've said it again and will continue to voice my opinions as long as we're free from censorship or worse!:mad:

CB

Worse would be me telling you to 'Shut Up' ----

but there's no way in hell I'll ever do that ;)

Have a great weekend CB

[phil]

How can you justify taking part in TSP?

I can ask you the same. Me? I guess I'm just a fair weather patriot.

It is USA. & don't respond calling me names: I've seen the website telling Liberals how to identify those of us who are opposed to much/ or even any of Pres. Obama's plans & how to `deactivate' us. I have also read the quotes on their mailings telling me I am a Nazi, UnAmerican, among other things. I have read their taking as fact any rumor, story, that their kind kind dream up for News Fodder, WITHOUT checking any of it out before blasting away. And before you accuse me, personally, of too much TV, Radio - I have neither one.

I never make personal attacks. Never have, never will. It just weakens the basis of the argument.

I don't know why, but I find your post......really, really strange.

[Steadygain]

I don’t find it the least bit wonderful that money that was suppose to pay for fuel, ammunition and training for U.S. troops is diverted to launch an educational institute named after the late Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, Massachusetts Democrat. He had the morals of a snake and I find it disgusting that my tax dollars are being directed from the protection of our troops to this monument of honoring a “man” who was a pervert and sexual predator and only dodged prison time because of his name.

POST of the WEEK -- Part II

Heading home..... good night all

[Birchtree]

Dead Ted - may his feet burn for eternity.

[Show-me]

Federal deficit hits all-time high $1.42 trillion

Federal deficit hits record-high $1.42 trillion, expected total $9.1 trillion over next decade


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Federal-deficit-hits-alltime-apf-1559993790.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=2&asset=&ccode=

Who's fault is the next $7.68 trillion?????????? Phil???????

[jimijr]

(Cross posted from my blog at consimworld.com)

If you can't have the real thing, a dream is just as good. Ray Bradbury

Living In Wartime

In the years leading up to my birth our country exploded many fission and fusion bombs in the atmosphere. The total seems to be over a thousand. Assuming we are equal to the rest of the world in this statistic, over two thousand were touched off before 1963 and the test-ban treaty, to which several countries were non-signatories (e.g., France) and continued thereafter.

This was just in time to poison with radio-active strontium the milk I drank.

Within a short time of my birth the Korean War began. Over 50,000 Americans died and we achieved no more than a stalemate. The world's most fortified border still stands.

The terror level ratcheted upward and in school I was taught to "duck and cover." In 1962 the Cold War got pretty hot when we blockaded Cuba. In my neighborhood backyard bomb shelters became the subject of cocktail party talk, and I could point out today two or three homes there with bunkers.

Before I graduated from high school the fighting began in Vietnam, and before I graduated from college I was drafted into the army. (I did not go to Vietnam but I had nothing to do with that decision.) By the time I ETS'd in 1973 over another 50,000 boys died. It would be hard to say our efforts there were successful.

By the time I was out of college and launched on my career, the overt militarisation of space had begun. By treaty this is forbidden.

I was touring the FAA air route control center at Farmington Minnesota when the first Gulf War began in 1991. We watched Wolf Blitzer in Baghdad in the breakroom.

We welcomed the new millenium with the World Trade Center's destruction in 2001, and in 2003 went to war with Iraq, again. Now we're working on Afghanistan though without the same enthusiasm.

Our defense expenditures exceed those of all the rest of the world combined. My life has been dominated by warfare. Is it any wonder that a person of intelligence should turn to the study of the subject? Don't think it's over! Nuclear proliferation is proceeding and we retain tens of thousands of warheads, still on hair-trigger.

Links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_tests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_tests)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_and_cover (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_and_cover)

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/phs159.html (http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/phs159.html)

http://www.centurychina.com/history/krwarcost.html (http://www.centurychina.com/history/krwarcost.html)

http://www.archives.gov/research/vietnam-war/casualty-statistics.html (http://www.archives.gov/research/vietnam-war/casualty-statistics.html)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_casualties.htm (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_casualties.htm)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures)

http://www.thebulletin.org/content/doomsday-clock/timeline (http://www.thebulletin.org/content/doomsday-clock/timeline)

http://www.afspc.af.mil/ (http://www.afspc.af.mil/)

[grandma]

Federal deficit hits all-time high $1.42 trillion

Federal deficit hits record-high $1.42 trillion, expected total $9.1 trillion over next decade





At risk for a landslide of rebuttals I am going to say I Truly, Truly, Truly believe that if the Health Plan would have a clause added that said No U.S. tax money for abortions - air,land, sea, planetary; and a clause for Concientious Refusal by medical people to not take part, there would be more money problems solved than any amount of figuring & refiguring
can demonstrate.

[PessOptimist]

Phil,

Why is it you never address the point being made or answer it with a question or a statement that is related to the subject but not a direct answer?

No radio or TV? Geez, are you living in a cave somewhere? You do seem to have internet access though, things must be looking up!

That was a question, not an attack. Something like Rogatum Hominem I guess. My two years of high school latin have served me...not at all.

[phil]

Could you examine and explain your first question? I'm still confused after I read it. Please edit.

I'll answer your second question. No, I'm not currently living in a cave.

The third is an observation. Thanks for sharing it.

Phil,

Why is it you never address the point being made or answer it with a question or a statement that is related to the subject but not a direct answer?

No radio or TV? Geez, are you living in a cave somewhere? You do seem to have internet access though, things must be looking up!

That was a question, not an attack. Something like Rogatum Hominem I guess. My two years of high school latin have served me...not at all.

[CountryBoy]

Worse would be me telling you to 'Shut Up' ----

but there's no way in hell I'll ever do that ;)

Have a great weekend CB

You have a good week end to Bud. :D When it comes to our troops, that is one thing that does stike a nerve, I will reponse with both barrels and the only person that can call me a pansy ass and get away with it, is my wife. :laugh:

Of course the other thing that fires me up is when anyone denigrates our country, but as Frixxxx told me, some of these folks are just trolls, so I do try to ignore them/

Our daughter is in for the weekend and she is raring to shoot, so pumpkins will die this weekend. :D

Take care,

CB

[coolhand]

This spells trouble and it reflects unhappiness on both sides of the fence.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

[coolhand]

Sure...go after em'. :cheesy:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5grZ9qgSRNN5sAMW8smsQXGMwrwzgD9BDO4AG0

[Steadygain]

Within a short time of my birth the Korean War began. Over 50,000 Americans died and we achieved no more than a stalemate. The world's most fortified border still stands.

Hey JimiJr -- Rock on my friend and anyone with the Spirit of Hendrix is someone I would very much want to be friends with.


Let me tell you -- firsthand my situation with the Korean War.

I know many people that were directly involved with that War.

I know to a very large - real - and firsthand account what S. Korea was like before the war. I know how the general LAND was used and how the people lived as a whole.

I all the more know how S. Korea has changed as a RESULT of that war. There is probably NO GREATER SUCCESS STORY imaginable that the USA was involved with than the Korean War. It is the Ultimate Victory -- TODAY --- now and forever!!

My daugher went to S. Korea with my father in law (a Korean War Veteran) and he was able to elaborate how it was when he was there fighting for their freedom and independence.

That same daughter -- is now in her 2nd full year in S. Korea giving her life to promote God's Love and do whatever she can to promote their welfare, peace, and harmony.

A Korean couple she works with are about to have another baby. They asked their son if he wanted them to have a boy or a girl. The boy told them I want 'An American'. So in her own way Sarah is winning in S. Korea.

It is only because of what the Americans accomplished - that S. Korea is what it is TODAY and that Sarah is there in the capicity she continues to serve.

Sarah was offered 'double the money' from others doing the same job in other parts of the world - because their economy was so much better. She refused -- and felt she deserved no more than anyone else --- so she took half of what they offered.

[coolhand]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/10/18/white-house-escalates-war-fox-news-1925819282/

"While there is undoubtedly a visceral thrill in finally setting out after your antagonists, the history of administrations that have successfully taken on the media and won is shorter than this sentence," Carr wrote over the weekend. "So far, the only winner in this latest dispute seems to be Fox News. Ratings are up 20 percent this year."

He added: "The administration, by deploying official resources against a troublesome media organization, seems to have brought a knife to a gunfight."

[Viva La Migra]

Sure...go after em'. :cheesy:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5grZ9qgSRNN5sAMW8smsQXGMwrwzgD9BDO4AG0
The facade is falling off and people are starting to see the real Obama administration. Petty, self serving, wannabe socialist dictator in the making.

[coolhand]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-tc-nw-alqaeda-11017-1018oct18,0,4121746.story

The complex debate over U.S. policy in South Asia encompasses differing proposals for tactics, troop levels and strategies for contending with the Taliban.

But the Obama administration says it is all driven by a top priority: defeating al-Qaida.

That enemy is on the defensive. Al-Qaida has failed to strike the United States during the past eight years. The network last spilled blood in the West in 2005 when the London transit bombings killed 52 people. Global cooperation and aggressive infiltration by Western spy services have thwarted subsequent plots and sharpened a campaign of drone strikes that has killed veteran bosses.


You mean the Bush administration did something right? :cool:

[eccougar]

76 Days and counting with no decision, maybe November?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6879511.ece

[coolhand]

Note that this is out of Chicago.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/huntley/1834209,CST-EDT-HUNT20.article

[Steadygain]

I will reponse with both barrels and the only person that can call me a pansy ass and get away with it, is my wife. :laugh:

Excuse the interruption -- but realized this morning I forgot to address this..:embarrest:

When I was in the 10th Grade there was a boy in my class that looked like a 'Hardened Criminal' The guy looked years older than the rest of us -- very strong and tough features --- and he seriously looked like he must have gone through a lot to get those looks.

Well - me being the totally crazy -- risk taking -- idiot -- I can be said something to another guy in the class about 'Babyface'....

to which of course he said -- 'Babyface' -- who is that ???

and I pointed to the 'hardened criminal'

Well this guy starts laughing really hard (because he's the last guy in the world you'd ever say something like that about) -- and the guy got up - went over to his desk and looked at him ---

He turned beat red -- never made a peep again.. :embarrest:

The guy glanced at me --- and that was enough.

SO MY FRIEND -- IF YOU'RE STILL AWAKE -- YOU ARE MOST DEFINATELY THE LAST GUY THAT ANYONE COULD CALL THAT.

And if anyone was crazy enough to call ya that I bet he wouldn't do it more than once every 2 to 5 years.... and then it would be hidden in a bunch of other stuff.

[coolhand]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/10/20/tried-steal-election-ny-voter-fraud-case-heats/?test=latestnews

[matrix54]

Peter David Schiff is an American economist, author, commentator and popular video blogger who regularly appears in the role of a bearish pundit on numerous financial news networks. Schiff, president of Euro Pacific Capital, a brokerage firm founded in 1980. His 2008 UTube video prediction of the 2008 market collapse received over 1 million hits.Schiff points to the low savings rate of the United States as its worst malady, citing the transformation from being the world's largest creditor nation in the 1970s to the largest debtor nation by the year 2000. The low savings rate can be attributed commonly to higher inflation and artificially low interest rates by the Federal Reserve. In a 2009 speech in Omaha, Nebraska, Schiff stated that it was impossible for the massive US debt to China to be repaid unless the US Dollar's value was substantially diluted by creating ("printing") new dollars. Schiff believes that gold will reach USD 5000 within a few years and that the 2009 stock market rally will not last.

[Frixxxx]

Wow, if ever the was a case to vote....Just making sure no one does it for you!

I mean come on, it should be a freakin day off! That way, you can talk to people and find out what the hell is on the ballot to begin with.

I was surprised to find out at work (federal employees) that some people are still just learning what "primaries" are.

I'm like," HOLY $H1@T" you don't freakin know? But your 55 years old?"""

Oh well, thanks for the link coolhand!

[phil]

The major operational part of Al-Qaeda was destroyed a couple of months after 9/11, when the CIA dusted off their plans to take out the largest numbers of Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan.

They succeeded in doing just that......then we had Iraq, which was some sort of romantic military adventure that the Neocons in the former administration wanted. The hard reality has been that we actually assisted Al-Qaeda after our Iraqi invasion.

Afghanistan is different. There are insurgency/tribal groups of Pushtoons on both sides of the border, but most of them are not hard Taliban, they're just Pushtoons who want some degree of cultural autonomy inside both countries.

Al-Qaeda was largely destroyed in 2001. However, many other groups outside Afghanistan are making their way into Al-Qaeda in Pakistan now. I'd like to differentiate between the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. The Taliban provided shelter to Al-Qaeda, but I'm not sure they'd do it again. I'm sure that some of the Taliban leaders would like to come out of the cold at some point.

The CIA basically wiped out a large number of Al-Qaeda cadres by using Northern Alliance troops, neutralized a good number of the Taliban commanders, then proceeded to take out quite a few of the hard core foreign fighters from Al-Qaeda along the border with Pakistan.

But after that was over, we transferred our top units out of theater into this bizarre Iraq adventure, and basically created more problems than we needed to.

A fairly good resource for S. Asian terrorism is satp.org (south asian terrorism portal), though I do believe they have anti-Islamic leanings.

It is correct that Al-Qaeda last attacked in the west in 2005, but they probably also did the Mumbai attacks last year in India. Dramatic. That was probably an attempt to cause some reaction in India that failed horribly. I believe that someone wanted India to start trouble along the Pakistani border. That way, the Pakistanis would have to start shifting forces from along the border areas of Afghanistan further south.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-tc-nw-alqaeda-11017-1018oct18,0,4121746.story

The complex debate over U.S. policy in South Asia encompasses differing proposals for tactics, troop levels and strategies for contending with the Taliban.

But the Obama administration says it is all driven by a top priority: defeating al-Qaida.

That enemy is on the defensive. Al-Qaida has failed to strike the United States during the past eight years. The network last spilled blood in the West in 2005 when the London transit bombings killed 52 people. Global cooperation and aggressive infiltration by Western spy services have thwarted subsequent plots and sharpened a campaign of drone strikes that has killed veteran bosses.


You mean the Bush administration did something right? :cool:

[Viva La Migra]

7021
Inside the Intelligence Committee.

[Steadygain]

Schiff points to the low savings rate of the United States as its worst malady, citing the transformation from being the world's largest creditor nation in the 1970s to the largest debtor nation by the year 2000.

Perhaps this is merely a reflection of how wonderful life really is in the USA. The need for a 'painful existence' of the Depression Era has been replaced with a 'painfree existence' and the population has increasingly come to realize that SAVINGS is not nearly as fun as SPENDING.

It's all in how you look at things... :rolleyes: .... and I think it's time to seize the Moment and Live for the Day. Grab all you can my friends and spend like there is no tomorrow .... because you'll have a lot more fun and you'll never lack for anything.

The low savings rate can be attributed commonly to higher inflation and artificially low interest rates by the Federal Reserve.

How incredibly brilliant -- and here I thought it had something to do with how we lived our lives and the choices we make.

impossible for the massive US debt to China to be repaid unless the US Dollar's value was substantially diluted by creating ("printing") new dollars. Schiff believes that gold will reach USD 5000 within a few years and that the 2009 stock market rally will not last.

FACTS ARE FACTS -- and there is NO WAY around them.

Good Post --- and WELCOME to the MB

[Steadygain]

Do you need to be a government employee to have access to this MB to spread whatever message you may have?

No -- what you need is some appreciation for the people that make this site what it is.

If all of us are cannibals -- then you only function as an irritant by telling us over and over that we should not eat humans -- we are cannibals Phil - that is who and what we are.

If all of us are communists -- then you only function as an irritant by trying to constantly shove democrary down our throats.

NOW - PLEASE GET THIS -- You wimpo elitest that lives in the Ivory Tower... You only function as an irritant -- when you constantly badger us about the Money Spent on Iraq/Afgan...:mad:

All of 'us' are good ole Americans with a huge sense of Pride and Honor -- and most of us are willing to 'get our hands dirty' and do whatever it takes to show our Loyality.

It makes absolutely no difference what group was responsible for attacking our Country and especially in association with the Twin Tower Event. Let me make it very clear that I never functioned as an Officer that felt it was more a priviledge to sit back and let others get the job done. I was the one who got the job done. So everytime you rant and rave about 'The Trillion' spent and the WASTE you're only being a major irritant - and directly and indirectly insulting the bulk of people of this MB.

If you're going to spread whatever message you want on this MB at least try to 'get a clue' if your message is appropriate !!!

will continue in the next post.....

[nnuut]

I second that EMOTION!!!!!!!!!:nuts:

[CountryBoy]

A big AMEN, Brother Steady! :D

[Steadygain]

After 9/11 I craved for the Government to seek me out and have me join a Unit to get the group responsible -- would have rather done that than anything thing else - and glady disappeared from the face of the Earth without telling anyone....

My family could find out when I got back...

Regardless of what we may have thought of BUSH -- He very much represented everything most of us (This MB Phil) could have hoped for when he responded to the attack. We needed a Strong Leader who made it Clear -- you will not get by with this -- we will hunt you down and kick your f***ing ass.

I don't need to hear your garbage about WMD -- the Terrorists or whatever. THE FACTS are Saddam openly 'Challenged our Country and His BAD INTENTIONS' are undeniable. In essense he declared 'Come on you pussies, bring it on' -- 'You chicken s*** punks!! cause I'm ready and waiting'....

Amazing how you could forget that Phil. So at a bare Minimum we are dealing with Thousands and Thousands of SOLDIERS that sacrified their LIVES for the HONOR and INTEGRITY of the USA. People that were --AND ARE -- willing to get their hands dirty. That amount of DECICATION can not be measured PHIL -- It's worth more than a Trillion.

We did accomplish a lot -- despite your view -- and many proved they are more than capable of showing themselves approved. Many on this MB are directly connected to that WAR and to the Service of this Country.

So if you want to spread a message -- then spread one all of us; or the overwhelming majority of us can appreciate.

Please remember that most of us -- are deeply loyal and highly committed Americans -- and the LIVES of those decicated to serving their Country means more to us than 'a Trillion Dollars'

[2EASY]

In the words of Rodney King, "can't we all just get along"?:D

[Buster]

http://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_troll.gif

[phil]

There's a process called "reasonable discourse".

Let me make this perfectly clear: I never attack people for their opinions. Their experiences are their own. This is your opinion. Mine is completely different. But before you EVER try to judge me about my experiences, pal, you've not walked one single day in my shoes. Period.

I speak from personal experience, not from some tower. Get a clue.


No -- what you need is some appreciation for the people that make this site what it is.

If all of us are cannibals -- then you only function as an irritant by telling us over and over that we should not eat humans -- we are cannibals Phil - that is who and what we are.

If all of us are communists -- then you only function as an irritant by trying to constantly shove democrary down our throats.

NOW - PLEASE GET THIS -- You wimpo elitest that lives in the Ivory Tower... You only function as an irritant -- when you constantly badger us about the Money Spent on Iraq/Afgan...:mad:

All of 'us' are good ole Americans with a huge sense of Pride and Honor -- and most of us are willing to 'get our hands dirty' and do whatever it takes to show our Loyality.

It makes absolutely no difference what group was responsible for attacking our Country and especially in association with the Twin Tower Event. Let me make it very clear that I never functioned as an Officer that felt it was more a priviledge to sit back and let others get the job done. I was the one who got the job done. So everytime you rant and rave about 'The Trillion' spent and the WASTE you're only being a major irritant - and directly and indirectly insulting the bulk of people of this MB.

If you're going to spread whatever message you want on this MB at least try to 'get a clue' if your message is appropriate !!!

will continue in the next post.....

[grandma]

Somebody called Bob Livingston said this:
http://www.personalliberty.com/images/emails/hr.jpg



http://www.personalliberty.com/images/emails/hr.jpgQ: Dear Bob, Was the passing of the $700 billion bailout the right thing for America's ailing financial markets?

A: Actually the government doesn't bail anybody out. They simply create credit and make it available to those on the inside. Unknown completely to the American people, every "bailout" cost every dollar holder because it dilutes their dollars and the result is reduced purchasing power. They steal trillions of dollars this way and they will finally reduce the middle class in the US to poverty.

There is plenty of precedent and history. It happened in Germany in 1923 and ruined most of the German people. Only those who bought gold and foreign currencies preserved their savings.
http://www.personalliberty.com/images/emails/hr.jpg


sorry about the display - I couldn't make it copy only what I wanted......... My question is: is this response `right on the money'?

http://www.personalliberty.com/images/emails/hr.jpg

[phil]

So, let me get this straight: we were attacking Iraq because of SH's bad intentions? Was he having some thoughtcrimes about the U.S.?

There was no WMD, no connection to Al-Qaeda, so we attacked Iraq because we thought that they might someday attack us? We attacked Iraq because people in the administration wanted to, not because it was necessary. The end result has been to strengthen Al-Qaeda, not weaken them. Were we trying for the full-employment economy, consisting of us going around the world, creating enemies, then attacking them? Sounds like it to me. So now, if people think bad thoughts about the US, we get to attack them?

Well, I envision busy times for the war industry, if that's the case.

Actually, we need a strong leader to keep us out of war, not get us in one. We don't need further military involvement around the world, more adventures, more deaths for our young men and women, more misery.



After 9/11 I craved for the Government to seek me out and have me join a Unit to get the group responsible -- would have rather done that than anything thing else - and glady disappeared from the face of the Earth without telling anyone....

My family could find out when I got back...

Regardless of what we may have thought of BUSH -- He very much represented everything most of us (This MB Phil) could have hoped for when he responded to the attack. We needed a Strong Leader who made it Clear -- you will not get by with this -- we will hunt you down and kick your f***ing ass.

I don't need to hear your garbage about WMD -- the Terrorists or whatever. THE FACTS are Saddam openly 'Challenged our Country and His BAD INTENTIONS' are undeniable. In essense he declared 'Come on you pussies, bring it on' -- 'You chicken s*** punks!! cause I'm ready and waiting'....

Amazing how you could forget that Phil. So at a bare Minimum we are dealing with Thousands and Thousands of SOLDIERS that sacrified their LIVES for the HONOR and INTEGRITY of the USA. People that were --AND ARE -- willing to get their hands dirty. That amount of DECICATION can not be measured PHIL -- It's worth more than a Trillion.

We did accomplish a lot -- despite your view -- and many proved they are more than capable of showing themselves approved. Many on this MB are directly connected to that WAR and to the Service of this Country.

So if you want to spread a message -- then spread one all of us; or the overwhelming majority of us can appreciate.

Please remember that most of us -- are deeply loyal and highly committed Americans -- and the LIVES of those decicated to serving their Country means more to us than 'a Trillion Dollars'

[Steadygain]

There's a process called "reasonable discourse".

Which can only happen if both parties -- are reasonably open to understanding. You however are convinced Your Way is the only way and the rest of us are too blind to see it.

Let me make this perfectly clear: I never attack people for their opinions.
You attack almost every person on this MB - and many of their family -- almost every time you make a post

Their experiences are their own.
Some choose committment - some chose sacrifice - some actually let dedication; honor, integrity rule their lives

This is your opinion. Mine is completely different.
Of course it's different Philly Boy -- my whole point

But before you EVER try to judge me about my experiences, pal, you've not walked one single day in my shoes. Period.
My 'judgement' towards you is based on the way you have openly expressed yourself to many people on this MB.

BUT if you don't like it -- I guess you can always leave

I speak from personal experience, not from some tower. Get a clue.

Whatever YOU ARE -- clearly comes out in your expressions -- and there is No Mistake -- about who and what you are

[2EASY]

Mike Tyson vs Evander Holyfield - Round 4 - here we GO!:nuts:

[Steadygain]

So, let me get this straight: we were attacking Iraq because of SH's bad intentions?

No Baby Scoots -- we attacked Iraq because the Commander in Chief took a stand and went to war.

That's how it works Baby Beaver and if that is too much for you to handle then go to another country.

There was no WMD,
None you know of -- which means much to me.
no connection to Al-Qaeda,
None you know of -- which means nothing to me
so we attacked Iraq
Were you involved Phil ??? In any manner have you directly been on the Battle Field -- been involved with Covert Operations and had to deal first had with death?

Until - You know what it is to be a Soldier -- don't waste your breath on anyone on this MB

We attacked Iraq because people in the administration wanted to, not because it was necessary.

Getting close Phil -- damn -- it's hard to me to think you really do have a clue. We attacked Iraq because the Administration CHOOSE to

and that made it Necessary -- Mr USMC -- that's how it works.

The end result has been to strengthen Al-Qaeda, not weaken them.
Many have been hit -- and many more are being exposed.

That's your opinion Phil -- Arms/Ammo People need to make a living and no better way to do it than WAR.

Were we trying for the full-employment economy,
It's a good dream Phil -- who is we?

consisting of us going around the world,
Where have you been outside of the USA that you didn't wet your diapers ??

creating enemies, then attacking them?
It's almost impossible for me to believe you were doing this -- let alone attacking them.

Consciencious Objector ?? or just Pansy Ass??

Sounds like it to me. I bet it does Phil -- you keep beating a dead horse -- why not leave it alone and move on to something else

or just move on .........

So now, if people think bad thoughts about the US, we get to attack them?
It not 'Our Call' -- Phil -- do you understand how the Military Works?

Well, I envision busy times for the war industry, if that's the case.
It is a hugely profitable business --

Actually, we need a strong leader to keep us out of war, not get us in one.
That is your constant and repeated message Phil -- but we have never ever had the ability to determine the strength or weakness of any leader until after they are 'elected'

If WAR is ongoing -- it's beyond us Phil

We don't need further military involvement around the world,
AND as long as 'military involvement' continues then you will do everything possible to 'persuade' everyone -- how dumb we are to hold the views we do... you want Frixxxx, Birch, Me, and the overwhelming bulk of MB members to 'REPENT' and be like you.

more adventures, more deaths for our young men and women, more misery.
Maybe this more than anything else will get through to you. If you care at all about their deaths - their misery - and whatever they have to endure...

then make the rest of your POSTS -- honoring the committment and dedication of all those serving with Honor, Integrity, and Pride.

[Steadygain]

Mike Tyson vs Evander Holyfield - Round 4 - here we GO!:nuts:


Actually - I'm feeling GREAT -- compared to this morning... ;)

[phil]

Wow. I guess name calling is standard with you. I must be dead right. On the money. Why don't you make the rest of your posts about something real? I can't wait.


Maybe this more than anything else will get through to you. If you care at all about their deaths - their misery - and whatever they have to endure...
?
then make the rest of your POSTS -- honoring the committment and dedication of all those serving with Honor, Integrity, and Pride.

[Viva La Migra]

So, let me get this straight: we were attacking Iraq because of SH's bad intentions? Was he having some thoughtcrimes about the U.S.?

There was no WMD, no connection to Al-Qaeda, so we attacked Iraq because we thought that they might someday attack us? We attacked Iraq because people in the administration wanted to, not because it was necessary. The end result has been to strengthen Al-Qaeda, not weaken them. Were we trying for the full-employment economy, consisting of us going around the world, creating enemies, then attacking them? Sounds like it to me. So now, if people think bad thoughts about the US, we get to attack them?

Well, I envision busy times for the war industry, if that's the case.

Actually, we need a strong leader to keep us out of war, not get us in one. We don't need further military involvement around the world, more adventures, more deaths for our young men and women, more misery.
I believe we attacked Iraq for repeated UN Resolution violations. We went in without the "blessing" of the UN, but we did go in there to enforce UN resolutions.

[Show-me]

You mean that toothless tiger the UN?

[phil]

So, let me get this right. We went into Iraq because the UN ORDERED us to go in?

That's pretty funny. What other resolutions are we going to enforce?

What do we do if they order us to go somewhere else?

[Show-me]

Just the ones we think will serve our citizens security and safety?

[Viva La Migra]

You give up? Then I'm the last man standing.

Me, I'm just trying to keep our troops and my country safe from people who want to take advantage of their patriotism, and put them at risk for no reason.

Lessons learned from Iraq and Vietnam: Don't invade a country, especially if they haven't done anything to you. Don't spend money you don't have.

So, after 20 years of military involvement in Vietnam, what do we have to show for it?
I'm too young to remember Vietnam...but wasn't our involvement only ten years?

Having read the history of that conflict, I opine that the U.S. could have won that war had it not been for the liberal left. People like:
7046
Hanoi Jane Fonda and the Hollywood Liberal Elite

[KevinD]

I believe we attacked Iraq for repeated UN Resolution violations. We went in without the "blessing" of the UN, but we did go in there to enforce UN resolutions.

Who said you could cloud the issue with facts? :confused: :D

[phil]

Our involvement was much longer in Vietnam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

The war exacted a huge human cost in terms of fatalities, including 3 to 4 million Vietnamese from both sides, 1.5 to 2 million Laotians (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Lao_people) and Cambodians (http://www.tsptalk.com/wiki/Cambodians), and 58,159 U.S. soldiers.

What's that worth? What did we gain from it?

[Buster]

I'm too young to remember Vietnam...but wasn't our involvement only ten years?

Having read the history of that conflict, I opine that the U.S. could have won that war had it not been for the liberal left. People like:
7046
Hanoi Jane Fonda and the Hollywood Liberal Elite


Great post Viva;)

Phil...http://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_attention.gif

[Viva La Migra]

So, let me get this right. We went into Iraq because the UN ORDERED us to go in?

That's pretty funny. What other resolutions are we going to enforce?

What do we do if they order us to go somewhere else?
No offense, but I think you would be well served if you took a little extra time to read the posts and understand what you are reading before replying. I said we went in to enforce UN Resolutions, but we did so without UN blessings. I know that is one of your issues with going in to Iraq; the fact we did so without "permission" of the UN.

[grandma]

No doubt the Vietnam Veterans will agree on the liberal item. During a previous Presidential campaign there was a veteran's organization (Winter something, I think) down at UT, Austin, searching through the stored documents placed there afterwardthe fighting. Among other things, they found documents (& pictures, I do believe) of John Kerry, Jane Fonda having secret meetings in Paris with the Viet Cong. I'd search out these places, but my computer is being very contrary and doesn't want to let me do searches - when ththththis hahahappens to the rererest of you, then we will kkKNOW for sure, that the IRS has taken over the Internet !!!:p

[phil]

No offense taken. Well, let's read what you said:

I believe we attacked Iraq for repeated UN Resolution violations.

So, then you stated that we went in at the behest of the UN....without their blessing. Isn't that a contradictory statement? I went into the room at your behest, without your blessing.

We went in without the "blessing" of the UN, but we did go in there to enforce UN resolutions.

Here's a bonus question for you. How, exactly did we know that SH had chem/bio weapons? What did we do, after we learned that he'd used them repeatedly?

Answer:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum/03/sp_world_battle022703.htm

[phil]

I guess I'm just trying to insert some realism that you may be lacking.

AND as long as 'military involvement' continues then you will do everything possible to 'persuade' everyone -- how dumb we are to hold the views we do... you want Frixxxx, Birch, Me, and the overwhelming bulk of MB members to 'REPENT' and be like you.

[Viva La Migra]

No offense taken. Well, let's read what you said:

I believe we attacked Iraq for repeated UN Resolution violations.

So, then you stated that we went in at the behest of the UN....without their blessing. Isn't that a contradictory statement? I went into the room at your behest, without your blessing.

We went in without the "blessing" of the UN, but we did go in there to enforce UN resolutions.

Here's a bonus question for you. How, exactly did we know that SH had chem/bio weapons? What did we do, after we learned that he'd used them repeatedly?

Answer:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum/03/sp_world_battle022703.htm
I never said we went in at the behest of the UN. You're misinterpreting the plain language of my post to infer something that is neither stated, nor implied.

No doubt we knew what Saddam was during the Iran/Iraq war. File this one under "The enemies enemy is my friend" file.

[phil]

Well, let's read what you said:

I believe we attacked Iraq for repeated UN Resolution violations.

We went in without the "blessing" of the UN, but we did go in there to enforce UN resolutions.

Okay, here's your post. How do I say this better?


I never said we went in at the behest of the UN. You're misinterpreting the plain language of my post to infer something that is neither stated, nor implied.

[Steadygain]

Wow. I guess name calling is standard with you.

Good Morning Phil :)

I had kind of a restless night last night due to the 'ridiculous tension' that has come about between us. I realize some of the names I used could be considered insulting, degrading, or offensive and I'll try to avoid that in the future.

Neither one of us has to reduce ourselves to a 'Lesser Standard'

I must be dead right. On the money.

Phil -- and seriously I will do my best to stick with that name unless you ask me to call you something else. 'Baby Scoots' is one of those random names I might call my dog Ella and there is probably nothing on Earth I love more than her. So some of my names were actually meant to keep things flowing more 'lightly'.

But beyond on the names -- were very serious questions that are very important in understanding your connection with the Iraq War and with the Military in General.

If you would honestly elaborate on those questions then everyone on the MB - and you yourself - would have a greater appreciation of how 'qualified' you are in dealing with WAR and all that is involved.

Why don't you make the rest of your posts about something real?

I can't wait.

I would love that Phil -- and honestly most of the questions I asked you are not only REAL -- but they are very pertinent to the Subject Matter.

We know 'your view' on the Iraq War --- and in all sincereity most of your comments are like an 'Old Newspaper' -- we've been through all that stuff -- your major points -- years back with Bush.

[QUOTE=phil;236302]
There was no WMD,
no connection to Al-Qaeda,
OK - Phil - seriously let's really try to get along.

Whenever a WAR is waged -- it has to be substantiated with some kind of 'Threat' -- always (and forever) this is how it will be.

So with Iraq -- I (and you) and everyone else REALIZE that the basis for the WAR was mainly WMD. Also of course -- the Stage of Terrorism was constantly flooding every Media Source possible.

So I am with you on this -- and so is everyone else -- all of us know this and it's OLD INFORMATION. Many actually talked about impeachng Bush for doing this.

NOW --- Let's deal with REALITY. The USA is hugely dependent on Foreign Oil and that mainly comes from that particular sector of our Globe. OUR STANDARD -- fair or unfair -- is FAR ABOVE the rest of the world. The USA uses from 50% to 90% of the world's resources. We as a country - live like Kings and Queens compared to essentially every other person on Earth.

sorry got a meeting and will get back ....

PEACE MAN

[2EASY]

Let me call the presesident and set up a bear summit for you 2 guys :D

[Viva La Migra]

Let me call the presesident and set up a bear summit for you 2 guys :D
I don't know about a bear summit...but a beer summit might be nice!:nuts:

[Viva La Migra]

Well, let's read what you said:

I believe we attacked Iraq for repeated UN Resolution violations.

We went in without the "blessing" of the UN, but we did go in there to enforce UN resolutions.

Okay, here's your post. How do I say this better?


I never said we went in at the behest of the UN. You're misinterpreting the plain language of my post to infer something that is neither stated, nor implied.
The United States is a member of the UN Security Council and was aware that Iraq was violating certain UN Resolutions. The UN Security Council seemed unwilling to do anything about it, so the U.S. gathered a "Coalition of the willing" and went into Iraq in order to enforce UN Resolutions. That was the "official" reason for attacking Iraq. Whether that was the real reason will be the subject of debate for years to come.

Does that clarify my point a little?

[2EASY]

The United States is a member of the UN Security Council and was aware that Iraq was violating certain UN Resolutions. The UN Security Council seemed unwilling to do anything about it, so the U.S. gathered a "Coalition of the willing" and went into Iraq in order to enforce UN Resolutions. That was the "official" reason for attacking Iraq. Whether that was the real reason will be the subject of debate for years to come.

Does that clarify my point a little?

I hear you, but that was not the main point said on national TV. The Pres, VP, Sec of State, NSA, CIA all said on national TV - "WMD". And the citizens of the U.S. said "go get them, George!" I honestly believe to this day that is the main reason Powell resigned. He llost a lot of credibilty, and felt bad about it.

[Steadygain]

I guess I'm just trying to insert some realism that you may be lacking.


AND as long as 'military involvement' continues then you will do everything possible to 'persuade' everyone -- how dumb we are to hold the views we do... you want Frixxxx, Birch, Me, and the overwhelming bulk of MB members to 'REPENT' and be like you.

Phil,
I believe you really are attempting to establish some recognition and respect; that to some degree this is a way to make a good name for yourself. You are 'it appears' attempting to make known the injustices of WAR - and in particular why our involvement in Iraq was/is wrong.

The reason why - the way you have communicated has bothered me so much is because I have personally been insulted by a lot of your comments and all the more see how Frixxxx, Birch, Show-me, Nnutt, Viva La Migra, Coolhand ... and many others on this MB could feel hugely insulted and so much of my anger and resentment was based on what I know about them.

Frixxxx is actively involved in the Military and he has more than proven the highest level of committment and dedication. He does not scrutinize what his superiors tell him and how they direct him; but he knows everything he does is part of a PLAN -- a PLAN whereby he is actively using his life for the Best Interests of our Country. When he is called he served to the highest degree possible and his reputation is well known.

Viva La Migra - not only served for the USA in the same manner as Frixxx but he was actively involved with a WAR and 'sacrificed' his life on behalf of our Nation. He does this in the job he has with the Federal Government on a daily basis - he puts his life on the line - and he takes the illegals back 'home'.

Birch -- and many others -- have earned 'The Combat Badge'. They not only sacrificed their life on behalf or our Nation -- but they went through mountains and mountains of horrible tragedies and experienced incredibly 'traumatic events' -- all for the sake of serving our Nation with Integrity, Honor, and Pride.

When we talk about REALISM - in regards to WAR - in regards to Combat Situations where either you succeed or you don't come back that is something I do not lack. In fact in all sincereity this more than anything else makes me wonder about you; what kind of 'soldier' you were; what Combat Experience you had and to what level of committment you served your Country.

So Phil -- I will be very honest with you. My life and the lives that many on this MB have lived; and the mindset we developed and how that 'Shaped our Lives' and our outlook ~~~~ that more than anything else is why most of your posts have bothered me. Frequently it appears your comments are directed against who we are and as insults to our Integrity, Honor, and Pride.

I guess I'm just trying to insert some realism that you may be lacking.

Thank you for taking the time to do this Phil, not only for me, but for everyone else on the MB. I would say that is exactly what I'm trying to do with you.

[Steadygain]

There was no WMD,
no connection to Al-Qaeda,
OK - Phil - seriously let's really try to get along.

Whenever a WAR is waged -- it has to be substantiated with some kind of 'Threat' -- always (and forever) this is how it will be.

So with Iraq -- I (and you) and everyone else REALIZE that the basis for the WAR was mainly WMD. Also of course -- the Stage of Terrorism was constantly flooding every Media Source possible.

So I am with you on this -- and so is everyone else -- all of us know this and it's OLD INFORMATION. Many actually talked about impeachng Bush for doing this.

NOW --- Let's deal with REALITY. The USA is hugely dependent on Foreign Oil and that mainly comes from that particular sector of our Globe. OUR STANDARD -- fair or unfair -- is FAR ABOVE the rest of the world. The USA uses from 50% to 90% of the world's resources. We as a country - live like Kings and Queens compared to essentially every other person on Earth.

sorry got a meeting and will get back ....

PEACE MAN

OK - Phil - this by far would be the most important message I could write in regards to your collective posts.

Let's go over the BASICS of WAR.
1. The President is the Commander in Chief and he is 'priviledged' to information the general population usually never knows about. If a President would 'inact a WAR' - knowing the American Lives he is sacrificing and the COST involved -- and all the more knowing how the rest of the entire world is going to heavily scrutinize this action.

It is HIGHLY unlikely that any President would do this as an 'Ego' thing -- as some personal vendeta -- this is way too big and way to serious to take lightly. In this day and age (Bush Administration) it would have to be on a Magnitude of National Castropy.

I fully understand YOUR ARGUMENTS -- and what the Press (and Congress) were forced to make 'public' - as we went to WAR.

BUT PLEASE -- be willing to have an open mind -- and at least consider that the overwhelming basis of the Iraq War was wholly founded on something altogether different from the 'publicized' WMD.

There could easily be something completely Equalent to WMD that would thoroughly DISRUPT the USA and everything associated with it. We are a Country that is based on 'Cheap Oil' and there is absolutely NO DOUBT that we are dependent on Foreign Oil and it's continual - and UNINTERRUPTED SUPPLY.

The HINT of an OIL EMBARGO against the USA in the 70s immediately resulted in a major disruption -- with very long lines of traffic to every available gas station.

PLEASE AT LEAST CONSIDER THIS PROBABILITY -- AND THERE IS A HIGH HOPE YOU WILL SEE 'IT WAS NOT ONLY A VERY NECCESSARY WAR' -- BUT ONE IN WHICH NO LIVES WERE WASTED.

I love ya as a friend Phil -- hope you can tell I'm seriously striving to have a very good dialoge with you

[mayday]

Steadygain: I agree wholeheartedly with your 2 most recent posts. I served 5 years in the military myself. I believe phil is not mocking the military but the commander in chief. President Obama last I checked.

[Steadygain]

Steadygain: I agree wholeheartedly with your 2 most recent posts. I served 5 years in the military myself. I believe phil is not mocking the military but the commander in chief. President Obama last I checked.

Thanks man !!

You would definately be included with the others mentioned.

In retrospect I realized I was taking it way too personally; but what really got me fired up is thinking about all the others and the ones actively serving.

Anyway - much appreciated. :)

[coolhand]

Okay you liberals (you know who you are) :D, when are you going to renounce your affinity for the current administration? You don't want to be the last one to the party, do you? :laugh:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/6409721/Barack-Obama-sees-worst-poll-rating-drop-in-50-years.html#

[coolhand]

What one preaches and what one does are two different things. :rolleyes:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/23/czar-war-escalates-between-congress-white-house/

[coolhand]

Okay you liberals (you know who you are) :D, when are you going to renounce your affinity for the current administration? You don't want to be the last one to the party, do you? :laugh:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/6409721/Barack-Obama-sees-worst-poll-rating-drop-in-50-years.html#

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/trust_on_issues

Need more proof? :D

[coolhand]

Start circling the wagons. :cool:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/28638.html

[coolhand]

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/trust_on_issues

Need more proof? :D

I really like Peggy. She's knows how to drop ordnance on target. ;)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704224004574489530713762884.html

[mayday]

Okay you liberals (you know who you are) :D, when are you going to renounce your affinity for the current administration? You don't want to be the last one to the party, do you? :laugh:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/6409721/Barack-Obama-sees-worst-poll-rating-drop-in-50-years.html#

Funny that Charles Gibson on that propaganda news channel said just the opposite right at the opening of the broadcast just the other night. I was LMAO I like to see what the liberals like to push on all us dumb sheep.:)

[Viva La Migra]

Funny that Charles Gibson on that propaganda news channel said just the opposite right at the opening of the broadcast just the other night. I was LMAO I like to see what the liberals like to push on all us dumb sheep.:)
When they skew the results to favor their opinion, it's a small wonder they don't say the POTUS has a 100% approval rating!:D

[CountryBoy]

Okay you liberals (you know who you are) :D, when are you going to renounce your affinity for the current administration? You don't want to be the last one to the party, do you? :laugh:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/6409721/Barack-Obama-sees-worst-poll-rating-drop-in-50-years.html#

Approval through silence? Kinda like approving of the attempt to censor the free speech of Fox. ;) Heck even his own party are getting tired of his thuggish Chicago politics and hit hit/enemy list.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/28638.html

Of course those are the moderate Dems and not the true believers of his socialistic agenda.

[phil]

To be real: If you're a patriotic American, then you really should have questioned why the war was going on, why we were trying to get involved. Anything else is moral cowardice. Now, so many people want to simply cover up the mistakes that went on. If that's so, then it probably means they're going to support the next unneccessary war, a war that could destroy our country.

As to my own experiences....no thanks.

Just to let you know, I oppose our military involvement in many places around the world. Any rational person would. As to people being personally insulted by my comments....I don't see it.

There's a difference between a patiot and an operator. And no, I completely support the initiatives of the current administration.
There's a reason why our president received the Nobel Peace Prize. He's trying to do the right thing around the world, but most of the people here seem not to appreciate his efforts. Why?

Phil,
I believe you really are attempting to establish some recognition and respect; that to some degree this is a way to make a good name for yourself. You are 'it appears' attempting to make known the injustices of WAR - and in particular why our involvement in Iraq was/is wrong.

The reason why - the way you have communicated has bothered me so much is because I have personally been insulted by a lot of your comments and all the more see how Frixxxx, Birch, Show-me, Nnutt, Viva La Migra, Coolhand ... and many others on this MB could feel hugely insulted and so much of my anger and resentment was based on what I know about them.

Frixxxx is actively involved in the Military and he has more than proven the highest level of committment and dedication. He does not scrutinize what his superiors tell him and how they direct him; but he knows everything he does is part of a PLAN -- a PLAN whereby he is actively using his life for the Best Interests of our Country. When he is called he served to the highest degree possible and his reputation is well known.

Viva La Migra - not only served for the USA in the same manner as Frixxx but he was actively involved with a WAR and 'sacrificed' his life on behalf of our Nation. He does this in the job he has with the Federal Government on a daily basis - he puts his life on the line - and he takes the illegals back 'home'.

Birch -- and many others -- have earned 'The Combat Badge'. They not only sacrificed their life on behalf or our Nation -- but they went through mountains and mountains of horrible tragedies and experienced incredibly 'traumatic events' -- all for the sake of serving our Nation with Integrity, Honor, and Pride.

When we talk about REALISM - in regards to WAR - in regards to Combat Situations where either you succeed or you don't come back that is something I do not lack. In fact in all sincereity this more than anything else makes me wonder about you; what kind of 'soldier' you were; what Combat Experience you had and to what level of committment you served your Country.

So Phil -- I will be very honest with you. My life and the lives that many on this MB have lived; and the mindset we developed and how that 'Shaped our Lives' and our outlook ~~~~ that more than anything else is why most of your posts have bothered me. Frequently it appears your comments are directed against who we are and as insults to our Integrity, Honor, and Pride.

I guess I'm just trying to insert some realism that you may be lacking.

Thank you for taking the time to do this Phil, not only for me, but for everyone else on the MB. I would say that is exactly what I'm trying to do with you.

[phil]

I'll just let your own words speak for you on this post. I don't have to add a thing.


OK - Phil - this by far would be the most important message I could write in regards to your collective posts.

Let's go over the BASICS of WAR.
1. The President is the Commander in Chief and he is 'priviledged' to information the general population usually never knows about. If a President would 'inact a WAR' - knowing the American Lives he is sacrificing and the COST involved -- and all the more knowing how the rest of the entire world is going to heavily scrutinize this action.

It is HIGHLY unlikely that any President would do this as an 'Ego' thing -- as some personal vendeta -- this is way too big and way to serious to take lightly. In this day and age (Bush Administration) it would have to be on a Magnitude of National Castropy.

I fully understand YOUR ARGUMENTS -- and what the Press (and Congress) were forced to make 'public' - as we went to WAR.

BUT PLEASE -- be willing to have an open mind -- and at least consider that the overwhelming basis of the Iraq War was wholly founded on something altogether different from the 'publicized' WMD.

There could easily be something completely Equalent to WMD that would thoroughly DISRUPT the USA and everything associated with it. We are a Country that is based on 'Cheap Oil' and there is absolutely NO DOUBT that we are dependent on Foreign Oil and it's continual - and UNINTERRUPTED SUPPLY.

The HINT of an OIL EMBARGO against the USA in the 70s immediately resulted in a major disruption -- with very long lines of traffic to every available gas station.

PLEASE AT LEAST CONSIDER THIS PROBABILITY -- AND THERE IS A HIGH HOPE YOU WILL SEE 'IT WAS NOT ONLY A VERY NECCESSARY WAR' -- BUT ONE IN WHICH NO LIVES WERE WASTED.

I love ya as a friend Phil -- hope you can tell I'm seriously striving to have a very good dialoge with you

[Steadygain]

To be real:

I'm so glad you came back before I left for the weekend.

I can tell you in all sincerity that I love you and accept you for who you are Phil. You don't need to make any kind of changes for me and nor would I want you to.

I simply have to accept you 'as you are' and be content with that.

So I'm not trying to argue with you -- or create any kind of tension.

If you're a patriotic American, then you really should have questioned why the war was going on, why we were trying to get involved.

I have questioned it over and over Phil and if you look over my previous posts you'll find many that express your sentiments.

In the end I have concluded it was all about OIL and I fully understand the central importance it plays in the USA.

I have worked directly with many of the ones that were initially sent over there and some that have just returned.

BUT BELIEVE - what you want Phil -- you have a right to believe whatever you want and I have no place to say you are right or wrong.

Anything else is moral cowardice. Now, so many people want to simply cover up the mistakes that went on.

I'm not here to judge anyone Phil -- I did enough of that with you recently and I regret that - and I absolutely refuse to get back in that kind of game.

If that's so, then it probably means they're going to support the next unneccessary war, a war that could destroy our country.

I believe in something greater than the President and any and all people on Earth. If a war ~~ or some other event destroys our Country ~~ I would have to believe a Greater Power was behind it.

As to my own experiences....no thanks.

THANK YOU !! for at least considering it. Actually your 'Soldier experiences -- and anything connected to the Military' no longer make any difference to me.

I promise that's true -- I don't need anything to 'judge you by'

I simply accept you as you are -- and I'm at peace with you Phil.

Just to let you know, I oppose our military involvement in many places around the world.

I think you're a 'good man' Phil -- I just totally misunderstood you

Any rational person would.

Perhaps your right. I'm honestly not going to argue with you and I think it's bad -- want to let everything go and have nothing weighing me down or holding me back.

As to people being personally insulted by my comments....I don't see it.

I was wrong Phil -- and I admitted that to both you and Mayday.

Since writting you earlier today -- I do feel a lot better. I don't feel the tension and all the more 'The BAD KARMA' and the way I treated you -- are a thing of the past.

Have a Wonderful Weekend Phil !!!

Peace -- Love -- Rock n' Roll

[Steadygain]

I'll just let your own words speak for you on this post. I don't have to add a thing.

Thanks Phil :)


Hopefully we're cool :cool::cool:

I hope we are


Later Man -- heading home

[PessOptimist]

I believe we attacked Iraq for repeated UN Resolution violations. We went in without the "blessing" of the UN, but we did go in there to enforce UN resolutions.

So, let me get this right. We went into Iraq because the UN ORDERED us to go in?

That's pretty funny. What other resolutions are we going to enforce?

What do we do if they order us to go somewhere else?

Phil, this is what I am talking about when I say your answers are not answers.

VLM said "I believe we attacked Iraq for repeated UN Resolution violations. We went in without the "blessing" of the UN, but we did go in there to enforce UN resolutions."

You replied "So, let me get this right. We went into Iraq because the UN ORDERED us to go in?

That's pretty funny. What other resolutions are we going to enforce?

What do we do if they order us to go somewhere else?"

Where did VLM say the UN ordered us to go to Iraq?

Please answer this question and do not refer to a nonexistant "previous post".

And keep it simple, so a second grader can understand it.

[coolhand]

There's a reason why our president received the Nobel Peace Prize. He's trying to do the right thing around the world, but most of the people here seem not to appreciate his efforts. Why?

OMG. There's going to come a time when you're going to realize that BHO is in many way no different that GWB. They're both politicians. They're both constrained by the same geopolitical dynamics. Do you understand what that means at their level? Why do you think the American public at large is giving a thumbs down? Not just this MB Phil, for crying out loud the dissatisfaction is ringing from coast to coast; liberals, conservatives and everything in between. There are no saviors. They're are no untouchables. They are all pulled into the machine and ground up like anyone else. I'm not pushing a conservative agenda here, only a realist one.

[James48843]

OMG. There's going to come a time when you're going to realize that BHO is in many way no different that GWB. They're both politicians. They're both constrained by the same geopolitical dynamics. Do you understand what that means at their level? Why do you think the American public at large is giving a thumbs down? Not just this MB Phil, for crying out loud the dissatisfaction is ringing from coast to coast; liberals, conservatives and everything in between. There are no saviors. They're are no untouchables. They are all pulled into the machine and ground up like anyone else. I'm not pushing a conservative agenda here, only a realist one.


His job ratings are still in positive territory.

http://pollingreport.com/obama_job.htm

I think, for what was handed to him, he's doing well. That's my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[PessOptimist]

FWIW and expressing no particular opinion of my own, since Ms Fonda was brought up a few posts ago, a fact about a local veterans organization.

In the men's comfort facility there are mats in the urinals to place the good smelling "cakes" upon so they don't fall down the drain. Each of these mats has a likeness of Ms Fonda in her fitness teacher days. On further examination you will find a sticker in each urinal that has the same likeness. Apparently these veterans don't approve of Ms Fonda in some way.

Myself, of course, always pea on the floor to avoid the appearance of making any statement of any kind lest I be construed as a misogynist.

The people who run the post are getting a little pissed at me:nuts:

[nnuut]

It's is my opinion that we had to take Saddam out of power because:

1. We put him into power, he was our BOY!

2. He became too powerful!

3. He rebelled against authority, became a merciless Tyrant, was threatening to take over the Middle East (including Israel).

4. Was Killing at random in order to control the people of Iraq, which included genocide.

5. There have to be more reasons, but everyone is not privy to that kind of classified info, maybe some time in the future the truth will come out?

6. He shouldn't have pissed off Bush!

7. I agree with that decision. :cool:

[alevin]

Show-I agree with some of the above. He WAS our boy during the Iran-Iraq war. (I had no idea that was true back then, I just knew they were fighting and killing each other-no idea we were involved in the background-probably like many many other US citizens).

We made him promises back then (access to a seaport) but never followed through (I didn't know that either back then). HE got pissed and went to go get his promised seaport (in Kuwait). I didn't comprehend his motivation until I read about that unfulfilled promise just a few years ago. Didn't agree with his solution then or now, but I now get why he did it.

I was one of the most disappointed and uncomprehending when we didn't drive all the way to Baghdad the first time and get it over with (topple him and replace the government), It's like Orwell's 1984-one week somebody's our enemy, next week they're our friend, the following week they're our enemy. If enough time passes, the people forget we ever had the alternate relationship.

I did not agree with the trumped-up rationale the 2d time around-never did believe that was the real reason.

[coolhand]

His job ratings are still in positive territory.

http://pollingreport.com/obama_job.htm

I think, for what was handed to him, he's doing well. That's my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

The real point of the polls, is that they are dropping hard and fast. Obviously some folks will continue to support him even as he betrays their expectations. I wish I could post some of the stuff I get from stratfor, because it reveals foreign policy has not changed much under the BHO administration. Which shouldn't be particularly surprising to anyone who looks at politics from a face value perspective.

"From what was handed to him". That's the same problem Peggy Noonan pointed out in my previous post. At some point you own it. You made a pitch to the American people that you were going to effect change and they bought it. But there seems to be a lot of backsliding going on. Rhetoric has met reality and rhetoric blinked.

It is not my intention to disparage the President. I am only posting news articles and opinions from various mainstream sources. But much of what I'm reading I'm agreeing with. I didn't care much for the Bush administration either. But I can be an equal opportunity political basher with no problem, and that's where my milage varies. It's like stocks. I don't trust any of them.

[phil]

Was this the non-existent previous post that you mentioned? I was still trying to figure out what you were asking in the first question, but you never got back to me.

The relevance of the statements I made stands. On the one hand, we can't hide behind the UN figleaf to offer any justification to our actions in Iraq, then blame the UN for our problems. This seems to be standard throughout this MB. To say that we went in to Iraq because of a UN resolution on the matter is a complete falsehood.

Just to let you know, our real problems in Iraq began after the Jordanian Embassy and the UN compound were destroyed by truck bombs in Iraq. It also killed the number 3 person at the UN at the time, de Mello.

I encourage you to actually find out the truth about what a debacle Iraq was, and why it became that way.

Is this language simple enough?


Phil,

Why is it you never address the point being made or answer it with a question or a statement that is related to the subject but not a direct answer?

No radio or TV? Geez, are you living in a cave somewhere? You do seem to have internet access though, things must be looking up!

That was a question, not an attack. Something like Rogatum Hominem I guess. My two years of high school latin have served me...not at all.

[phil]

This is right. The other thing we didn't do, until much later, was to condemn his actions when he used poison gas on Iran and the Kurds. In fact, some evidence indicates that there was a lot of pressure not to do that at all.

Thanks for saying this. It provides context to our longer involvement in the region. It's much more complex than what people think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein_%E2%80%93_United_States_relations



Show-I agree with some of the above. He WAS our boy during the Iran-Iraq war. (I had no idea that was true back then, I just knew they were fighting and killing each other-no idea we were involved in the background-probably like many many other US citizens).

We made him promises back then (access to a seaport) but never followed through (I didn't know that either back then). HE got pissed and went to go get his promised seaport (in Kuwait). I didn't comprehend his motivation until I read about that unfulfilled promise just a few years ago. Didn't agree with his solution then or now, but I now get why he did it.

I was one of the most disappointed and uncomprehending when we didn't drive all the way to Baghdad the first time and get it over with (topple him and replace the government), It's like Orwell's 1984-one week somebody's our enemy, next week they're our friend, the following week they're our enemy. If enough time passes, the people forget we ever had the alternate relationship.

I did not agree with the trumped-up rationale the 2d time around-never did believe that was the real reason.

[James48843]

Okay you liberals (you know who you are) :D, when are you going to renounce your affinity for the current administration? You don't want to be the last one to the party, do you? :laugh:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/6409721/Barack-Obama-sees-worst-poll-rating-drop-in-50-years.html#


I resemble that remark.

Sorry I'm posting late, but I just saw this. So here goes.

You ask if I am going to renounce my affinity. Nope, not yet. I still have HOPE that things in general are going to get better.

Now, you point out that job approval rating have fallen. Yes, thats true. It's fallen from 63% to 52%.

"Worst drop in 50 years.....?" Well, I'll say that the alternative isn't desirable either. You remember the event, and the President, who gave us the "Best rise in 50 years?" It was G.W., after the Sept 11th attack. His job rating soared after 19 people flew planes into buildings. Using your argument, if someone flew a plane into a building today, and Obama climbed up on top of a pile of rubble and used a bullhorn to declare revenge, I would think his poll numbers would climb as well. However, I would not advocate someone fly a plane in to a building in order to score poll points.

He's got a tough job to do. Yes, at some point, the policies in place become his own. And you'll never get everyone to think he's doing a great job. For now, he has a lot on his plate. I just hope he is able to move Congress forward through his leadership.

Although that is a lot like hearding cats.

[coolhand]

I resemble that remark.

Sorry I'm posting late, but I just saw this. So here goes.

You ask if I am going to renounce my affinity. Nope, not yet. I still have HOPE that things in general are going to get better.

Now, you point out that job approval rating have fallen. Yes, thats true. It's fallen from 63% to 52%.

"Worst drop in 50 years.....?" Well, I'll say that the alternative isn't desirable either. You remember the event, and the President, who gave us the "Best rise in 50 years?" It was G.W., after the Sept 11th attack. His job rating soared after 19 people flew planes into buildings. Using your argument, if someone flew a plane into a building today, and Obama climbed up on top of a pile of rubble and used a bullhorn to declare revenge, I would think his poll numbers would climb as well. However, I would not advocate someone fly a plane in to a building in order to score poll points.

He's got a tough job to do. Yes, at some point, the policies in place become his own. And you'll never get everyone to think he's doing a great job. For now, he has a lot on his plate. I just hope he is able to move Congress forward through his leadership.

Although that is a lot like hearding cats.

Yes. There is still hope, I can agree with that. The job is very tough, monumental even, which is why it's so hard for me to see anyone stepping in and "fixing" it while at the same time galvanizing all political parties. Your reference to herding cats is on target.

[grandma]

all political parties. Your reference to herding cats is on target.

7062

7063
You'llletmeknowifIdidtheattachmentswrong ??

[coolhand]

I've always gotten a kick out of the first one. :D

[coolhand]

Double post.

[PessOptimist]

Was this the non-existent previous post that you mentioned? I was still trying to figure out what you were asking in the first question, but you never got back to me. Is this language simple enough?

No, Phil, I was referring to a post made you. Not me.