Let me know what you think

[mattdog240]

I am currently commiting 14% to my TSP. I was thinking of bumping it down to 5%. My reasoning behind this is I also have a ROTH IRA. Wouldn't it be smarter for me to put the max into my ROTH IRAand just get that free 5 % in my TSP? I mean if my money is tax free when with drawen in the ROTH why not right??

Let me know what you think... I am new in the game

mattdog240 wrote: I am currently commiting 14% to my TSP. I was thinking of bumping it down to 5%. My reasoning behind this is I also have a ROTH IRA. Wouldn't it be smarter for me to put the max into my ROTH IRAand just get that free 5 % in my TSP? I mean if my money is tax free when with drawen in the ROTH why not right??

Let me know what you think... I am new in the game
Welcome mattdog240
It depends on what you can anticipate for your retirement income - will it be higher or lower than your present income (as related to your tax bracket now vs. retirement)?
There are many other issues to take into consideration. Others probably can highlight them better than I can. You can also do a search on this forum for "IRAs" and find out what has already been said and explained.

Hi Mattdog, welcome.

We have "discussed" this before, here is the link:

http://www.tsptalk.com/mb/forum19/724.html

You are right, if you don't draw on it until your 59 and a half, a ROTH makes sense to me. Tax free then. Income then makes no difference. Sorry W_W, don't mean to go against what you said.........actually, yes I do......:P

Just remember though, there are limits as to how much you can put into a ROTH each year, and it's up to you to keep track of it. You can however have more than one ROTH.

Hope this helps,

Good luck

mlk_man wrote: Hi Mattdog, welcome.

We have "discussed" this before, here is the link:

http://www.tsptalk.com/mb/forum19/724.html

You are right, if you don't draw on it until your 59 and a half, a ROTH makes sense to me. Tax free then. Income then makes no difference. Sorry W_W, don't mean to go against what you said.........actually, yes I do......:P

Just remember though, there are limits as to how much you can put into a ROTH each year, and it's up to you to keep track of it. You can however have more than one ROTH.

Hope this helps,

Good luck

Oops, you already mentioned the max, your on the right track. As far as I'm concerned anyway. :^

M_M

mlk_man wrote: Sorry W_W, don't mean to go against what you said.........actually, yes I do......:P

Why are you giving me the tongue?
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cus/e_1_40.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZN)

[mattdog240]

Thanks guys and girls! :^

Wonder Woman wrote: mlk_man wrote: Sorry W_W, don't mean to go against what you said.........actually, yes I do......:P

Why are you giving me the tongue?
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cus/e_1_40.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZN)Oops, sorry, not our 2nd date yet.............:u

[Mike]

Hehehe... thinking back to one of Tom's posts... "two members for the price of one..." :D

mattdog240 wrote: I am currently commiting 14% to my TSP. I was thinking of bumping it down to 5%. My reasoning behind this is I also have a ROTH IRA. Wouldn't it be smarter for me to put the max into my ROTH IRAand just get that free 5 % in my TSP? I mean if my money is tax free when with drawen in the ROTH why not right??

Let me know what you think... I am new in the game

Another thing matt, I believe you'll have to pay taxes on any "pre-tax contributions" you made to your TSP if you transfer to a Roth. You will also first have to transfer into a regular IRA and then transfer that into a Roth. All money contributed to a Roth has to be "post-tax". It still works out for the best in the long run.......

If you don't have a lot in your TSP right now, it's no biggie. But if you do, could be a lot of taxes to pay up front...........check with a broker to be sure about this. I'm going through this now with a friend of mine's retirement funds. She only has $5000 total in three different retirement funds so it's not a biggie. I'm not sure how we will know how much tax she has to pay though. I'm thinking when her money gets transfered from her retirement funds, one 403B, one IRA, and one insurance annuity, they will let Scottrade know how much she has contributed pre-tax. Then when we transfer it into a Roth, they will tell us how much.

Also, there is no time frame for transferring into a Roth once you have your regular IRA set up. Once the money is there, you can transfer at anytime.

Good luck,

M_M

[Spaf]

mattdog240

I contributed money to TSP. And it was shear dumb luck that it wasen't all wasted in the stock market wars and ignorant allocations. There are over 3 million participants in TSP.
Stay tuned, educate yourself, know how the system works, otherwise we will all be needing the Chaplain! Cause I put the TSP system and empty boots on the same page.

The Roth is much wisdom. However, the TSP doesn't charge to move money around (yet). Also, it is often better to work your tax money now, and likely pay a lower tax rate upon retirement. Plus, you can borrow against it if you absolutely must. Once you give it up to the tax man, is hard to get it back. $$$ :-) Probably a matterto discuss with a professional as part of your overall retirement strategy. :u

[Spaf]

Mattdog240

TSP has employer matching grants up to what is it 5%. That is hard to beat and not something that an IRA has. I am sure you can find a financial professional somewhere, maybe yes, maybe no. I heard that the rich and famous have their money mannaged by professionals, but can you afford that?

Why don't you become the professional? It's your soul, it's your money, and it's gonna be your retirement some day.

First off - how do I sign up for the tongue thing? I have postage stamps that need licking.

Better to max the TSP. Take the tax cut now. Would be a bummer five years from now we are on the flat tax and your lose the tax cut now.

Get my drift? I do not have time to explain now. But the flat tax will be on what you consume buy so you will lose your tax cut now and later on you will have to pay tax on what you purchase later.

:shock:

[mattdog240]

All good ideas but now you are confusing me. Is there anyone that is in my boat. I have my TSP @ 5 % and I have a seprate ROTH IRA that I am putting the yearly max in. The roth IRA has about $10,000 mixed in with mutral funds. All good ones, five stars, with 5yr returns of 11% or more..ect ect So does anyone think this is a good idea to keep going down this road at my old age of 25, or should I put more into my TSP?:D

[coolhand]

Mattdog240,

Here is a different angle and one that I go by. I am contributing the maximum amount to my TSP (14%). I did that as soon as I started my TSP accountso I wouldn't get used to having any extra money laying aroundas itmight get spent instead.I also have a ROTH, although it's a little difficult for me to max it out at the moment.

However, since I am already contributing the maximum amount to the TSP, any pay raises I get or promotions can be used to immediately fund other savings vehicles such as the ROTH. You see, I want the best of both worlds. It may require you to lower yourstandard of living somewhat, but once you get used to a set income, it gets easier.

I actually prefer to max out my TSP before the ROTHfor another reason.I have a lot more control over it. The tax advantage of the ROTH may not be able to offset the money you could make in the TSP, taxes or no taxes. (I really don't think it can come close if you know what you are doing).

Additionally, five star ratings are never a guarantee of future earnings. The rating can fluctuate over time due to many factors (i.e. change in fund manager, market conditions as they affect a given market sector, etc.).

Another lesson I learned not too long ago concerns mutual funds. Specifically,what they are costing you.Many financial institutions charge a pretty good fee (5 - 6% typically) to contribute new money, not to mention annual operating expenses. I gave that up a few years back because for far too many funds itis a steep hill to climb. I nowinvest with no loadfunds like Vanguard.You may already be doing this, but I thought I'dbring it up anyway since I'm on a roll ;).

Oh yeah, one more thing. MarketTimer has a real good point. Tax laws change. I know, I used to be a tax consultant. Don't go by the current tax law situation. It'll change many times before you have a chance to retire.

[neirbod]

Coolhand,

FYI, in 2005 the max percent contribution for TSP is bumped up to 15%. I believe there is another week or so of TSP open season, so you can still make the adjustment if you want. Hope this doesn't complicate your strategy!

Dave

[mattdog240]

Ya you guys have me thinking now. I am going to put it at 10% and see if I can even do both my ROTH IRA and TSP and live happy. I currently have 50% IN C and 50% in S. New question now... I am looking to be aggressive and I know G isn't for me. What about I??? Maybee I will dip into that too..

It may not be so much a matter of how aggressive one is, but rather how adept and shrewd. Read here daily, use other resources that you will learn to use, then make your decisions based on your goals for retirement, your risk tolerance, market trends and technical analysis. Try to make your decisions based on strategies you will develop or follow rather than emotion, but you will occasionally need to follow your gut. Then there is luck.

And overall, almost any effort to manage your TSP will produce better results than the G fund. If you follow M_M, MT and TspTalk's daily analysis, not to mention the apt research and reflection of Smedlap, W_W, Spaf and Coolhand, their diversity of opinion and insight will surely put you on your way. :)<><

[coolhand]

neirbod wrote: Coolhand,

FYI, in 2005 the max percent contribution for TSP is bumped up to 15%. I believe there is another week or so of TSP open season, so you can still make the adjustment if you want. Hope this doesn't complicate your strategy!

Dave

I'm glad you brought that up Dave, you are absolutely correct :^. I changed my contribution to 15% in October just so I wouldn't forget.It won't take effect until the first pay periodof thenew year (or right around there). That's a great time for it to happen because that's when we typically get a pay raise.Increasing our contribution at that timeusually doesn'treduce our current disposable income. In fact, I usually have something left over.

Good catch!

mattdog240 wrote: All good ideas but now you are confusing me. Is there anyone that is in my boat. I have my TSP @ 5 % and I have a seprate ROTH IRA that I am putting the yearly max in. The roth IRA has about $10,000 mixed in with mutral funds. All good ones, five stars, with 5yr returns of 11% or more..ect ect So does anyone think this is a good idea to keep going down this road at my old age of 25, or should I put more into my TSP?:D
Matt, I'm with you ............as long as you actively manage your Roth once in awhile. You can make a lot more money in your Roth by playing inverse and 2X funds..........And the 5-6% fees? Never seen any funds that charge that much.. I only play the funds that track the indices...........are you actively moving things around in your TSP or are you just a buy and holder. Does make a difference. Remember, after you turn 59 and a half, you can take money out of your Roth at anytime tax and penalty free. Also, if you leave the TSP in the future and decide to roll it over into a Roth, you'll have to pay taxes on every dollar you put in your TSP that was tax deferred. I'd stick with 5% in your TSP, and 10% in your Roth even if your buy and hold. Lots of funds out there to invest in. This year a REIT (real estate) would of been a good one. Just have to do your homework. If the markets down in TSP, all we have is F and the stinkin' G. I hope one day we might get an inverse fund.........

Good luck,

Mike

[coolhand]

mlk_man wrote: And the 5-6% fees? Never seen any funds that charge that much

Mike

Mike

Perhaps I used the wrong term. The fee I am refering to is the load.A one time "fee", but money out of ones pocket none the less. There are a lot more loaded funds than no-load correct? Of course there are thousands of funds to choose from, but I think you know more about how to pick them than I do.

coolhand wrote: Mike

Perhaps I used the wrong term. The fee I am refering to is the load.A one time "fee", but money out of ones pocket none the less. There are a lot more loaded funds than no-load correct? Of course there are thousands of funds to choose from, but I think you know more about how to pick them than I do.
Ah, gotcha.........:^

[Rod]

mlk_man wrote: Also, if you leave the TSP in the future and decide to roll it over into a Roth, you'll have to pay taxes on every dollar you put in your TSP that was tax deferred.
Currently, we can not roll our TSP into a ROTH. But we can roll it into the Traditional. Then from there roll it into a ROTH.

Just wanted to clarify this. :)

[coolhand]

Boy, this is great. This is what this website is all about. Helping each other out! We all learn something everyday. Thanks everyone! :^

Rod wrote: mlk_man wrote:
Currently, we can not roll our TSP into a ROTH. But we can roll it into the Traditional. Then from there roll it into a ROTH.

Just wanted to clarify this. :)




TY Rod, that's actually what I've written before............:^But you don't roll it over into a Roth from an IRA, you convert it...............:PGoing through this now............

[Bear]

The other deal is the make up contributions for those who are 50 or will be 50 in 2005.:D

mattdog240 wrote: All good ideas but now you are confusing me. Is there anyone that is in my boat. I have my TSP @ 5 % and I have a seprate ROTH IRA that I am putting the yearly max in. The roth IRA has about $10,000 mixed in with mutral funds. All good ones, five stars, with 5yr returns of 11% or more..ect ect So does anyone think this is a good idea to keep going down this road at my old age of 25, or should I put more into my TSP?:D
Matt,

Sorry. MAX OUT YOUR TSP first. Reason if we go to flat tax you will lose your ROTH IRA tax free. Flat tax means that you pay tax on what you buy (consumption). Meaning...that your future TSP contributions will not lower your taxable income BECAUSE there will be no income tax. Max out TSP then pay off credit cards and then pay off unsecured loans and PLEASE PLEASE if you have an ARM get a fixed rate mortgage ASAP.

Like most of the policies this administration is passing it only helps the rich/corporations. The social security reform will be boon to the financial houses. Do not get me started :cool:. Flat tax is going to crush us...soon there will be two classes rich and poor and no middle class.

OK bash me....but I know where to invest to be on the rich side.

God bless.

Bill

Also that means that fat write off you get for mortgage interest will go away also....say pop to the housing bubble....I get about a 3% write off for my mortage now...also flat tax will be a 23% tax on all goods and services.

MarketTimer wrote: Matt,

Sorry. MAX OUT YOUR TSP first. Reason if we go to flat tax you will lose your ROTH IRA tax free. Flat tax means that you pay tax on what you buy (consumption). Meaning...that your future TSP contributions will not lower your taxable income BECAUSE there will be no income tax. Max out TSP then pay off credit cards and then pay off unsecured loans and PLEASE PLEASE if you have an ARM get a fixed rate mortgage ASAP.

Like most of the policies this administration is passing it only helps the rich/corporations. The social security reform will be boon to the financial houses. Do not get me started :cool:. Flat tax is going to crush us...soon there will be two classes rich and poor and no middle class.

OK bash me....but I know where to invest to be on the rich side.

God bless.

Bill

Spoken like the true hedge fund manager..............doom and gloom.............

I think either you'r econfused about the flat tax or I'm off my rocker.............isn't a flat tax an income tax that is the same for everyone across the board? I"m all for that. They are not going to do away with income tax, you kidding me? I not gonna tell you what I'm thinking right now............:P

Even if they do extinguish income tax, Texas and Florida have no state tax, they haven't fallen to the depths of Hell yet...................higher property tax yes. Why you think they have so many mobile homes..............:^

No this is a flat tax on consumption NOT income. Flat tax is also called National Sales Tax.

You may want to bone up on that stuff because if it comes down the pike that would greatly hurt your budget.

I do not like to be dome and gloom but I got to call it like I see it...I make more money in the bear market because you just short the indexes....a bull market is harder for me to pick stocks....

National Sales Tax will be very bad for low/middle income folks:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20041126-121743-1974r.htm

and I have to call that like I see it.

That means no write off for TSP, mortgage interest, etc, etc.

MarketTimer wrote: I do not like to be dome and gloom but I got to call it like I see it...I make more money in the bear market because you just short the indexes....a bull market is harder for me to pick stocks....

National Sales Tax will be very bad for low/middle income folks:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20041126-121743-1974r.htm

and I have to call that like I see it.

That means no write off for TSP, mortgage interest, etc, etc.
Thanks for the article, I'm all for it.

If you figure out your taxes...you will probably be paying double in taxes then you are now.

Consumption tax in which consumers would pay taxes based on the amount of goods and services they buy, with a maximum tax of 23 percent on goods and 25 percent on services.


You really need to look into this...IT IS NOT a good deal. Remember you will still have your state taxes to deal with....this is only replacing Fed taxes.

[Mike]

FWIW, "the flat tax" is a phrase that is associated with a flat income tax. A national sales tax is a whole other animal.

Steve Forbes came up with the phrase first, I think - he was using it as his campaign centerpiece when he tried to run for the GOP nomination a few years ago.

A simplified tax system would be a good thing - though I am not sold on a sales tax of 23% being a good thing. It might result in an economic slowdown as people curb consumption to avoid the tax.

Mike wrote: FWIW, "the flat tax" is a phrase that is associated with a flat income tax. A national sales tax is a whole other animal.

That's what threw me off.................:^I like the idea of a flat tax with no deductions.

[Dakota]

I think we just dipped to the bottom and it is time to go all in. I will be fully invested monday probably 100% s if not I wii post and be 25g 25c 50s come on what do yall think. go sooners

Dakota wrote: I think we just dipped to the bottom and it is time to go all in. I will be fully invested monday probably 100% s if not I wii post and be 25g 25c 50s come on what do yall think. go soonersTime will tell................Go Longhorns.................

[Dakota]

mlk_man wrote: Dakota wrote: I think we just dipped to the bottom and it is time to go all in. I will be fully invested monday probably 100% s if not I wii post and be 25g 25c 50s come on what do yall think. go soonersTime will tell................Go Longhorns.................
I like the horns too, make it to austin lots, love it good luck MM

only two kinds of people Texans and those who would like to be

[grandma]

Dakota wrote: mlk_man wrote: Dakota wrote: I think we just dipped to the bottom and it is time to go all in. I will be fully invested monday probably 100% s if not I wii post and be 25g 25c 50s come on what do yall think. go soonersTime will tell................Go Longhorns.................
I like the horns too, make it to austin lots, love it good luck MM

only two kinds of people Texans and those who would like to be

N-aw-t hardly, Dakota, not hardly........

Mike wrote: FWIW, "the flat tax" is a phrase that is associated with a flat income tax. A national sales tax is a whole other animal.

Steve Forbes came up with the phrase first, I think - he was using it as his campaign centerpiece when he tried to run for the GOP nomination a few years ago.

A simplified tax system would be a good thing - though I am not sold on a sales tax of 23% being a good thing. It might result in an economic slowdown as people curb consumption to avoid the tax.

Our fixed income folks are going to get crushed. Those in the 0, 15 and 20% tax brackets are not going to fare very well either. My tax rate goes from 35 to 23%. However with all the tax write offs, mortgage, 401/TSP, children...very few people are now paying 23% tax. I bet if you put pen to paper you are probably paying under 18% now with the write off that are going to go away. Remember 25% on services...such as eating out, haircuts, etc, etc.

Something to think about. Like I said we are going to have a upper and lower class soon and the middle class is going away. Think I am crazy? Your Grandparents probably only had one person working in the family and were doing fine. Now both parents work and are barely getting by. My grandma retired in 1975 and only needed 100K to get a good fixed income return. On 100K you will be luckly to get fixed income needed to live for ONE MONTH. Inflation is running us all ragged but since food and energy is not counter towards inflation anymore. Even thou that is probably in your top two expenses each month. But hey computer prices are down 18% so inflation is low!!!

Good luck!

bill

mlk_man wrote: Mike wrote: FWIW, "the flat tax" is a phrase that is associated with a flat income tax. A national sales tax is a whole other animal.

That's what threw me off.................:^I like the idea of a flat tax with no deductions.
The new system is being called a lot of things, flat tax, value added tax and national sales tax. You will see it should be called the stick it to the middle class tax.

But keep wearing the rosy color glasses. I got a PhD in mathematics and have crushed the numbers....squeeze, squeeze, squeeze. Keep in mind the states will want their taxes also that will not change.

Good luck!

Bill

grandma wrote: N-aw-t hardly, Dakota, not hardly........
Ut oh, an Arkansanian.......................welcome grandma..............

Dakota wrote:
I like the horns too, make it to austin lots, love it good luck MM

only two kinds of people Texans and those who would like to be
I grew up in a small town about 60 miles north of Austin called Lampasas. Had lots of fun road trips to Austin. Also like Marble Falls, Burnet, and lets not forget the lakes............ahhhh, memories....................now I got that damn song in my head! Thanks................:^

Flat tax, consumption tax... another problem. We will stilllikely keepsome agency to account for, manage, assess and distribute tax relief to those at or under the poverty (there will also have to be accountants to determine who is eligible) line.

If much of the rational is to accrue savings from reducing the sizeof gov't., we will find that these $ are elusive.

However, it would be nice to find a way to tax the underground economy, i.e. drug traffickers, etc. :)

Does the wink really mean, taxing the oldest profession? When we start collecting taxes from drug dealers I am leaving this country. Hey this is not Afganistan.

bill

Chaplain wrote: Flat tax, consumption tax... another problem. We will stilllikely keepsome agency to account for, manage, assess and distribute tax relief to those at or under the poverty (there will also have to be accountants to determine who is eligible) line.

If much of the rational is to accrue savings from reducing the sizeof gov't., we will find that these $ are elusive.

However, it would be nice to find a way to tax the underground economy, i.e. drug traffickers, etc. :)
I believe this is the reasoning behind the consumption tax. These guys aren't reporting it on their income tax, but they do buy things.............:^

Overlooking it is condoning it.

Bottom line: The people that have little extra cash are the ones that are going to pay the highest ratio of tax...lower/middle class. The upper class do not live from check to check. Say your grocery bill is $1000 a month. With the new tax your grocery bill will now be $1230 as an example. Like the two party system we now have...we will go to the two classes of people. Scrappers and Winners.

Good luck!

[Spaf]

HeyMT I need some humor! PS: Enjoyed your posts :)

How about this: We might as well tax the drug dealers and the oldest profession cause they will be the new middle class. Sorry, but U can't leave the country with the $ in the toilet. Maybe, we could be part time tax collectors, "Officer I was only........
Don't worry about Afganistan, they will apply for statehood, just any time now.

MarketTimer wrote: Overlooking it is condoning it.

Bottom line: The people that have little extra cash are the ones that are going to pay the highest ratio of tax...lower/middle class. The upper class do not live from check to check. Say your grocery bill is $1000 a month. With the new tax your grocery bill will now be $1230 as an example. Like the two party system we now have...we will go to the two classes of people. Scrappers and Winners.

Good luck!

MT, I believe you said that 23% is the "max". Do you really think someone living pay check to pay check is going to be paying 23%? Also, are you sure groceries will be included in this tax? I'm sure there will be some "provision" where you get a "grocery credit" or something for each child you have.............

Just my opinion......................I have a little more confidence in our govt., key word: little..............:^

[Wheels]

MarketTimer wrote: Think I am crazy?

Yes. And a bullshitter too.

Dave

[Mike]

One unintended consequence of a 20+% income tax rate on everyone: it would strongly encourage us to pay closer attention to what the idiots in Congress are doing with our money. Millions of people currently pay no federal income tax or very little. These people have no real incentive to scrutinize what the government is doing with tax dollars (since the gov't doesn't have their tax dollars). This would probably change quite drastically as soon as these people suddenly see nearly 1/4 of their money vanish before they ever see their checks.

So perhaps a tax hike for a lot of people is a good thing... because in the long term, we'd probably end up with lower tax rates, lower spending, and greater civic involvement. Maybe.

Wheels wrote: MarketTimer wrote: Think I am crazy?

Yes. And a bullshitter too.

Dave



HEHEHEHEHEHEH http://www.smileys.ws/sm/action/00000070.gif

Yeah and there is money in the G Fund too. That has all been cleared out to pay for treasury bondinterest along with the social security "lock box".

Wheels yourcreative one lines are not appreciated if you add NOTHING to conversations. It is probably you that is going to be hardest hit by the national sales tax...my tax rate is going going down by nearly half. Yours is probably doubling. You may want to be prepared for this.

Good luck!

:D

Wheels wrote: MarketTimer wrote: Think I am crazy?

Yes. And a bullshitter too.

Dave






Dave,

Amazing. You made three grammatical mistakes in a one liner. Keep up the great work! Your idiotically input isappreciated by all.

Crunch your own numbers. The rich are getting another massive tax cut on the backs of the lower/middle income class.

I am just trying to help people on this board to realize the implications of the national sales tax on their budget. The numbers speak for themselves. If you would take the time to figure it out for yourself you will see what I mean. But I guess that would mean you would have to do something foreign to you and think for yourself. Which it probably very hard for you.

Your personal attack on meare fine. However,please do not use that type of language on this board.

Have a great day!

Bill

I changed my stance on the National Income Tax Legislation...I am all for it 100% . Dear Santa I want a 50% tax cut!!!!

I bring up a topic that is extremely important to this board and get this kind of crap from the One Liner Brothers.

I hope it passes quickly and is retroactive to 1 January 2005.

Like I have been saying and getting bashed for it is; pay off consumer debt and build an emergency fund and start crunching numbers for your budgets.

TSP will be totally worthless to you because you will not have the funds for investing...your expendable income will evaporate with a stoke of a pen because your tax rate will double.

Hehehehe

:shock:



mlk_man wrote:


Wheels wrote: MarketTimer wrote: Think I am crazy?

Yes. And a bullshitter too.

Dave



HEHEHEHEHEHEH http://www.smileys.ws/sm/action/00000070.gif

[Wheels]

1. I was a member on this board from the beginning when Tom, and I, and Eukrate, and Zbwmy, and many others were exchanging valid and useful ideas. It is you that adds nothing to the conversation.

2. You accusing anyone of making grammatical or spelling errors is absolutely laughable. You are a fool.

3. I apologize for the language. I will re-state it. You are a liar.

Dave

Feel free to beat your chest all you like now. I will not respond further.

[Show-me]

:end:but that's the way we like it. Just be glad we have freedom to complain.

Wheels wrote: 1. I was a member on this board from the beginning when Tom, and I, and Eukrate, and Zbwmy, and many others were exchanging valid and useful ideas. It is you that adds nothing to the conversation.

2. You accusing anyone of making grammatical or spelling errors is absolutely laughable. You are a fool.

3. I apologize for the language. I will re-state it. You are a liar.

Dave

Feel free to beat your chest all you like now. I will not respond further.



No need to beat my chest because I know I am not a fool or a liar.

Have a good time in the matrix. Everything is great!

However if I can be the white rabbit and help someone become a Neo that will be great.

Bash me all you what. Take the blinders off and think large picture. There a couple people here that are doing that now with my posts.

[ducklips]

I think everyone needs to go to fairtax.org and make their own minds up about the proposal,but 1 thing I will add.All goods and services will be reduced by 23-25% when they eliminate all the hidden taxes that are included in the costs of those goods.Also I listen to talk radio a great deal.1 of the sponsors of the bill was on Allan Combs and stated that you actually would pay closer to 30% sales tax under the fair tax plan.Lastly we all would receive a monthly rebate based on the poverty level for your size family(Family of 4 would get roughly $450/per month based on 24,000 income) for ecential goods and services.I hope this clears up some questions.Excuse my poor spelling.Dave

Dave,

Is ducklips like cameltoe?

You are onboard for the rebate system? If you do everything right and check all the boxes correct we will GIVE YOUR money back??? That is socialism my friend. We are changing our system to be more like the European system - with their 0% growth rate and double digit unemployment - that makes sense to me!!!

What will the cost of doing tax returns 12 times (each month) instead of once??? Do you think you will get your rebate in a timely fashion???

If you factor in all the increases (services are 25% and the increased property tax liability) you are looking at 50% tax increase.

Oh yeah, never use one source to gather info. You need to check out more sites on this issue then fairtax.They will have the point of view of their donar base. Never, never trust a donar based site - that is a lobby group.

Morpheus

:x

[smedlap]

Market Timer, what say you? Please go to: http://www.taxfoundation.org/pressroom.htmlif taxes are the discussion. Forty Nine % of Americans pay no federal income tax and the wealthy bear the preponderance of that liability. It's a great website anyway!

Mr Luffer (O'Reily joke)

Like most things the pendulum is going to swing the other way.

There is a reason there is a poverty line. It is not fair to hurt those people.

Morpheus

[pyriel]

smedlap wrote: Market Timer, what say you? Please go to: http://www.taxfoundation.org/pressroom.htmlif taxes are the discussion. Forty Nine % of Americans pay no federal income tax and the wealthy bear the preponderance of that liability. It's a great website anyway!
Hmmmm.... I don't know about the wealthy bearing the preponderance of the tax liability. Although, the wealthy do pay taxes, the IRS is on their side. They are able to deduct just about everything and whatever's left is what they pay for taxes. I would have to say that the poor and middle class is the one that is paying the brunt of the taxes here in US. But then again, working class such as us is in a disadvantage because of the rules in IRS. This is what I think, no matter what kind of tax scheme they pull off in Congress, the rich will always find a way to go around it (they been doing it for hundred of years) and we will get hit big time on it.

Pyriel

[MohammadXX]

It's hard to define "middle-class" To me, you are only wealthy if you can maintain your current lifestyle when thepaychecks stop. How many of us couldafford to miss one or two months pay?

Also, the cost-of-living varies greatly depending where you live. Crummy homes go for$300,000 and up in NJ, and property taxes areoutrageous--that's why we have locality pay. But it still makes it hard to create a fairnational tax system.

[smedlap]

Hi MohammadXX. Have not seen your postbefore but welcome as Tom and others always greets every new member.Nice post! And pyrid - again nice comments. WhileI agree with your opinion, did you actually read the site data I posted or are you providing your founded opinion? It takes time to study the site factual data. The point of this site datashould contributetoan understanding of higher income tax brackets so thatwhenone retiresand achieves TSP success from this board, That person will be leading others in providing accurate info vice personal opinions. Facts are facts. Returns and wealth are the same!By your participation, it appears you intend to retire comfortably! As to you MohammadXX, I feel your pain as I am in New York and I think from the website I posted, I pay higher income taxes then you. I think Conneticut is #1, NY - # 2 and NJ with a supplemental strip search with each highway stop- #3. As to Phoenix, Arizona - the 5th fastest growing area in the US, my house there compared to my house in New York is 0.33 in taxes - same assessed value. I drive at 85 mph around Phoenix on hwy 110 and the people are wonderful!!! I hear in NJ that when stopped, one is asked for 3 pieces of information: driver's license, current auto insurance and vehicle registration. Is it true thatt if you do not produce any of these items on site you are assessed $150 per? Your comments!

[grandma]

pyriel wrote: . This is what I think, no matter what kind of tax scheme they pull off in Congress, the rich will always find a way to go around it (they been doing it for hundred of years) and we will get hit big time on it.

Pyri
Is the death tax that was mentioned earlier the same as the inheritance tax??

A retirement seminar I attend a couple of years ago brought out the information that the Very Wealthy had an `extra hidden' legal way to avoid the inheritance tax, can't remember the wording - the point was that this tax is a death knell to small, family-owned business, an problaby to the survivors themselves; that the wealthy don't end up having to pay it anyway.

Maybe Sen Kennedy will share his secret when he does his living autobiography.......

[ducklips]

markettimer those are good points to ponder,but we have been living in a socialized climate for the last 50 years.That is why we need such drastic change in our tax system.I would prefer to keep all my federal tax money and just pay tax on what i consume wouldn't you? There's too much gov't in my daily life and anything to get them out of my business is great.Yes fairtax.org is a lobbyist so I always take their opinion with a grain of salt.but I believe the approach is a good idea.I only mentioned them because I assumed most people didn't know that much about the issue and their webpage is a good place to start becoming familiar with the concept.I would like to hear your rational on why our taxes would go up 50% under a national sales tax or why some believe that the burden of the tax would fall unfairly on the middle class and poor.

[Mike]

MT is engaging in rampant speculation. Until we see an actual bill under consideration in Congress, none of us know for sure what rate they are pursuing or what exemptions (if any) will exist under the new tax law.

As for taxes and how they impact different groups, that is really a study of economics. The current system is defined as progressive because you pay more as you earn more (unless you are able to take advantage of the various areas of the tax code that provide deductions / credits / shelters). A sales tax by definition is regressive because the lower your income, the higher the percentage of that income is devoted to buying things... and is thus taxed accordingly.

If the rate they pursue - assuming this gains any traction on the Hill - is low enough, I will support the bill. I already know what my expenditures are on a monthly basis, and I know what my income tax liability is. So, it won't take me long to figure out whether or not the new system is favorable to me or not... and in any case, if it appears the reform will pass Congress, I'll get as many major purchases out of the way as I can before that tax takes effect. :^

[zoeb]

Nothing wrong with a little speculation...it gives everyonea chance toprepare for the future considering different scenarios.

The bad thing about a flat tax is that it loses the upper most bracket and the lowest bracket for one that everyone will pay evenly...say 23%. Now that's a little high for those well paid Wal-Mart employees so the new tax code will have to exempt those livingat aworking poverty level. Add that exemption to the mortgage and retirement savings deductions and the tax simplification plan becomes more complicated. Add hundreds of lobbied deductions and you just have a new tax plan levied at the middle class. Remember, Steve Forbes championed this tax plan and that doesn't bode well for the middle class.

A straight consumption or sales tax would be even more impossible to levy due to the complexities of what services, products andsalariesshould beexempt. This kind of tax would hurt the economy the most as people would do without or make do to avoid paying the tax.

But you might see a combination of both systems to make the increases to middle class less visible. Just my $.02!:^

[pyriel]

Mike wrote: As for taxes and how they impact different groups, that is really a study of economics. The current system is defined as progressive because you pay more as you earn more (unless you are able to take advantage of the various areas of the tax code that provide deductions / credits / shelters). A sales tax by definition is regressive because the lower your income, the higher the percentage of that income is devoted to buying things... and is thus taxed accordingly.


Hi Mikey!

I am neither against nor for the bill. However, I do know that whether we change our tax system or not, the rich will always get away with it. Here is why... Rich usually have businesses that allows them to deduct most if not all of what we (poor and middle class)would call expenses. I know of a guy that has acompany here that drives a nice car but he is not paying for it; his business is paying for it. His internet service, his garbage collection fee, the place he is staying at, his gas, his nanny, his insurance, etc. etc. etc... Get the picture? For us we call these expenses, but for the rich, they call these deductions. So either way, we lose....... UNLESS, we follow what they do.:^ You know what? they actually work!:dude: