Christianity vs Islam [Archive]

Steadygain

11-08-2008, 11:46 AM

First let me start with Christianity vs Islam gives the appearance that a person has to choose one against the other; that one is right and one is wrong; that it is a struggle or war between the two.

As with the RAPE SITUATION - I think you meant well but this could very much turn into a huge battle and cause a lot of deep friction and even create some wounds. So let's get that out of the way to begin with.

I do not pretend to be the authority on this subject but I can honestly say that the Spirit of Christ has flooded throughout my being and remained with me over the many years since I gave everything over to Him. The Bible is first and foremost the Living Word of God and can only be appreciated in terms of His Spirit working in your life and revealing the deeper truths. Dwelling on, and re-reading many passages brings out the substance of what God intended to be incorporated in your life and shape your beliefs.

The Bible can only be understood by reading and knowing the whole book. Again, I don't pretend to be any more equiped to know it better than anyone else but I have been through many Bible Studies over the years and have a very solid understanding of the entire book.

I have left many churchs because of what they have added to the Bible and expected me to proclaim teachings that diminish the Cross and supercede it with a doctrine of their making to give their chruch a special identity. I will not spit in God's Face.

The main drawback to this discussion is the fact that numerous Scriptures are used as weapons to attack various people or groups of people and I have heard many ministers over the years declare their hatred and total intollerance towards this group (gay) or that (women) by taking a few passages and distorting them to convince everyone that God hates them and we should all the more hate them and treat them indifferently.

HERE THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT IS KNOWING THE MESSAGE OF THE BIBLE - and not taking a few passages to foster our own prejudical views.

THE MESSAGE IS GOD IS A GOD OVER AND ABOVE THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE and everything within the universe is wholly by His doing. We exist only because of Him. GOD CONSIDERS RELATIONSHIPS TO BE THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF OUR EXISTENCE AND MAKES HIS GRACE AVAILABLE TO ALL PEOPLE AND ALL THINGS. Jesus is the beginning and the end - He everything and He embodies God's Message of Love and Service to everyone and His sacrifice was for every injustice ever committed by anyone. SO THE MESSAGE IS TO LOVE ALL PEOPLE AND EXTEND THE GLORY AND GRACE OF GOD (IN YOUR LIFE) TO EVERYONE REGARDLESS OF GENDER, RACE, SEXUAL PREFERENCE, NATIONALITY, OR RELIGION. Any person led by God's Spirit would work towards this endeavor.

As for the Bible being the only "HOLY BOOK" - I respectfully disagree. The Cost of Discipleship by Bonhoffer (and many other books) have convinced me that thousands of other books have the potiential to exemptify God's Holy Spirit and bring it to life just as strongly.

For those interested in discovering the difference the best thing to do is research the everything about the Founders (Jesus Christ and Mohammad). One had many prophetices written about him hundreds of years before his birth - look at his life and how he lived it - and the way His Spirt changed people. Then look at the other - how he incorporated various religions to form his own; look at the motives behind his actions and see how he lived his life. SO TO A LARGE DEGREE IT IS NOT THE KORAN VS THE BIBLE; It is much more Jesus or Mohammad - and here I would encourage anyone to be as open as possible to allowing God Himself to guide you into knowing which one most represents His Spirit and how that Spirit should be lived out in us and be the basis of our RELATIONSHIPS. Which one represents God's Love - God's Glory - and God's Grace wholly and completely. iF YOU FIND THE ANSWER AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD LIVES IN YOU AND YOU LEARN HOW TO MAKE HIS GLORY KNOWN AND DEMONSTRATE HIS LOVE - THEN REACH OUT TO OTHERS IN THAT SPIRIT AND LET THEM WITNESS GOD'S LOVE

Buster

11-08-2008, 12:18 PM

It is all about belief and faith. The story about Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar is the one I like the most because I can relate it to the current events. Jews, Muslims, and Christians all have the same Father but they can not see past their noses or their own need to dominate the world with their beliefs.

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~wldciv/world_civ_reader/world_civ_reader_1/abraham.html Excellent SM..I was raised Catholic and often pondered the truth if this story of Abraham and his sons and mistress and learned from being open minded that the Christians, Jews and Muslims have so much in common, it must make God very weary at all the conflict...but that's why we are mortal and lack the wisdom of the Divine..

But I thought this was a topic that needs to be discussed civilly because there is so much we misunderstand about these one almighty GOD based religions

Silverbird

11-08-2008, 12:28 PM

Errr...someone who knows more about Islam can contradict me here. However, I heard one of the fundamental differences have to do with the crucifixion and the resurrection. From what I understand, under Islamic belief, God would not have let that happen and there was a substitution.

This is similar to the beliefs under the mystic Gnostic branch of Christianity. The Gnostic branch went out of favor under Constantine (it probably didn't help that they believed Mary Magdaline was the first Disciple). Christianity on the whole moved away from the Gnostic branch, and I believe it's going to be wellnigh impossible for Islam and Christianity to meet on the subject of Jesus with this difference in belief about the Crucifxion and the Resurrection, since that is now the basis of Christian belief. Since under Islamic belief Jesus is a Prophet, such substitution would be within the privledge of God to do, and there are many instances in the Bible of such subsitutions. However, a substitution or a rescue is not a sacrifice of the Son for our sins. Although understandable that God would not stand for such a humiliting sacrifice it looks like a bit of retributive trickery in comparison done by the Son of God if put against the mirror of Crucifixion and Resurrection.

Some of the Gnostic texts were discovered recently, not in good shape. Causing much concernation in Christian circles.

Buster

11-08-2008, 12:42 PM

It has been noted and claimed in many texts as well, that the Jew Altered and corrupted some of the books of the Bible, to suit them as in the case of Abraham and his sons, as to which one was offered to God for sacrifice..

http://www.answering-christianity.com/isaac_and_ishmael.htm

And you guys thought politics was a touchy subject:rolleyes:...please keep in mind folks when discussing this topic, that beliefs run fundamentally deep..so be respectful.

Show-me

11-08-2008, 02:04 PM

Let's go one branch farther. I knew a Viet. Vet that spent some studying Buddhism and made the claim that is was very possible that Jesus visited the East and influenced Buddhism or is Buddha.

Google "Jesus lost years visit Buddhist" and see the hits you get.

http://www.thezensite.com/non_Zen/Was_Jesus_Buddhist.html

Show-me

11-08-2008, 02:12 PM

I hope no one gets offended by this discussion. I am against discussion politics and religion and I have been sucked in by the debate.

Here is one thing that comes to mind back in the day. Remember this game, Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon?

Now imagine it called Six Degrees of Jesus Christ.

Rod

11-08-2008, 03:10 PM

I too struggle with which books of the Bible should or should not be there. The Catholic Church being the first Church had much to do with which books are in the Bible.

Yes, The Roman Catholic Church finanlized the Biblical canon at The Council of Trent in 1546.

As a Christian, one must conclude that the Holy Spirit's work in this matter was not "flawed".

Therefore, we must essentially, by faith, place our trust in the Roman Catholic Church's ability to set in stone, thee definitive Biblical canon for the Christian Church.

But, ever since, 33,000+ protestant denominations have been detracting certain books from the Biblical canon because they don't fall in line with their particular theologies.

Christians should remain open to reading/studying the original Biblical canon, and refuse to be brainwashed into thinking it is/was flawed simply because the Roman Catholic Church finalized it.

Especially, since it is our belief that the Holy Spirit was at work during the finalization of the Biblical canon.

If He wasn't at work, then we are still without a Biblical canon.

Bottom line- The books which belong in the Christian Bible have been established at the Council of Trent. So, are we going to rely upon and trust that The Church "got it right" with the Biblical canon, or are we going to detract from it as has been going on for centuries throughout the 33,000+ protestant denominations?

I'd much rather choose the former so I can settle the matter within my own soul, thus keeping myself from becoming "a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind" because of the doubts that would constantly arise. James 1:6.

Steadygain

11-08-2008, 05:11 PM

Christians should remain open to reading/studying the original Biblical canon, and refuse to be brainwashed into thinking it is/was flawed simply because the Roman Catholic Church finalized it.

Especially, since it is our belief that the Holy Spirit was at work during the finalization of the Biblical canon.

Thanks Rod - I believe the Cannon was established in 367

But the point remains unchanged - in that we need to believe it was the Holy Spirit at work in the entire process. The Old Testament hugely magnifies the New Testament.

Again the Bible can only be understood in terms of it's underlying message and that is God's LOVE for us demonstated through Jesus Christ and if it does not point to Jesus and God's Grace and Glory and His Love actively working in our lives for others THEN IT COUNTS FOR NOTHING.

So no matter what the religion (Cath - Prot) if the Bible is not interpreted in light of the previous paragraph then the entire significance of God's Message to everyone is lost.

For the members who are not Christian (or have no belief in God) or somehow believe that your church uniquely qualifies you to have "a real walk with God" - I AM NOT SAYING ANYTHING TO CRAM DOWN YOUR THROATS.... BUT TRUE CHRISTIANITY IS HONESTLY MEANT TO BE A VERY SIMPLE RELIGION BASED PURELY ON LOVING AND ACCEPTING ALL PEOPLE AND EXTENDING GOD'S LOVE TO EVERYONE.

FUTURESTRADER

11-08-2008, 05:25 PM

At least start with Constantine's Council of Nicaea, AD 325

"There seem to be a number of legends about the First Council of Nicaea (325AD) in circulation on the internet, presented as fact. Some people seem to think that the council, which was the first council of all the Bishops of the Christian Church, either invented the New Testament, or edited it to remove references to reincarnation (or whatever) or burned large numbers of heretical works, or whatever. These are in error. This page documents the problem and provides links to all the ancient source material in order to allow everyone to check the truth for themselves. "

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/nicaea.html

Rod

11-08-2008, 09:22 PM

Why sure, there were already accepted books throughout The Church prior to the Council of Trent. But, one of the Council's goals was to officially recognize and finalized those books into a canon- especially in light of the Reformation which was causing quite a stir. Isn't it quite ironic the Council session for the canon took place 2 months after Martin Luther died? Coincidence??? I think not.;)

For the record, I grew up Roman Catholic, then became a Roaming Catholic, then became a Protestant, then contemplated returning to the Roman Catholic Church. But, for more reasons than one, I now simply wish to be known as a Christian.

Steadygain

11-08-2008, 10:23 PM

But, for more reasons than one, I now simply wish to be known as a Christian.

Amen !! Brother

There is one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism; Having Faith and letting that Faith transform your life where we trust only in the Spirit of our Lord and Savior and strive to obey His Leading with a broken and yeilded spirit.

It honestly makes little difference what church we go to; as our journey is deeply personal and without the inward commitment and true longing to yeild ourselve to His Glory - all the outward acts are pretty meaningless.

I have been part of many denominations and have been more and more convinced that the trivial doctrines that give each it's distinction - are garbage and meaningless compared to the core doctrine of Christ and all He represents. He is the church.

Buster

11-09-2008, 12:15 AM

wv-girl

11-09-2008, 12:22 AM

Amen !! Brother

There is one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism; Having Faith and letting that Faith transform your life where we trust only in the Spirit of our Lord and Savior and strive to obey His Leading with a broken and yeilded spirit.

It honestly makes little difference what church we go to; as our journey is deeply personal and without the inward commitment and true longing to yeild ourselve to His Glory - all the outward acts are pretty meaningless.

I have been part of many denominations and have been more and more convinced that the trivial doctrines that give each it's distinction - are garbage and meaningless compared to the core doctrine of Christ and all He represents. He is the church.

He is the church.

Amen, Steady. I was at one time attending a church and was in prayer when GOD showed me how sad he was that he couldn't find his light in very many people. HE not only showed me the congregation that I was in but all around the world. There were other points of light but compared to the darkness in people it was very few. So please look inward to find your answers and do not rely solely on any written word. GOD put the truth in our hearts when we were baptised in HIS name. You might be suprised how much you know without ever having read it in the Bible(even tho you can find it there).

fabijo

11-09-2008, 12:50 AM

fabijo

11-09-2008, 01:28 AM

Islam:

Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus. The son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of those nearest to Allah. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be of the righteous."

She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?"

He said: "Even so. Allah createth what He willeth. When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!"

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?"

He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right. Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden."

Christianity:

"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am."

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

XL-entLady

11-09-2008, 09:26 AM

Politics wasn’t controversial enough so we opened a religion thread?? :blink: Wow!

I’d like to humbly posit that my studies of several Christian church theologies suggest to me that it boils down to three ideas:

(1) Love God.
(2) Love my neighbor.
(3) Love myself.

As to the first item, I prefer to believe that a Supreme Power, whatever you believe that to be, will represent everything that is good and light giving. Is it hard to love that kind of a concept?

Regarding the second rule, who is my neighbor? It seems to me that a loving Deity would tend to be inclusionary rather than exclusionary. So maybe my neighbor is everyone who isn’t me. As a side note, I find it interesting (in a terrifying way) that more wars have been fought and more people killed in the name of religion than for any other reason. I really don’t think that’s what Deity had in mind when religious precepts were introduced to us…. :worried:

I think we have trouble remembering the third rule. My observations make me think that there are a lot of folks out there who don’t like themselves very much. On the days I’m feeling love for myself, I choose healthy lifestyle choices. I choose to behave in ways that won’t bring me retribution down the road somewhere. And I treat my neighbor with kindness, knowing that most people treat me the way I train them to treat me. :)

It doesn't matter to me what name a church goes by, or if it is Christian, Jewish, Buddism, Islam. That is a meaningless label to me. If any church makes me a better person then it’s a good thing. If a church makes me hate my neighbor then it is not, in my humble opinion, what my idea of Deity represents. That to me is the true test.

Is that opinion anathema to you? If I offend, then I apologize, not for the views because I do not change them, but for the disharmony that I have brought into your day.

Can we have discussions on this thread as respectful members of a loving but diverse family? I hope so, because I believe that is what we are. And I’m glad to be back among my family. :cool:

Lady

Rod

11-09-2008, 09:36 AM

Amen !! Brother
It honestly makes little difference what church we go to...

Or, if one even goes to a church.

I am a free agent in Christ. No one "church" has control over me.

Steadygain

11-10-2008, 06:20 PM

Or, if one even goes to a church.

I am a free agent in Christ. No one "church" has control over me.

You and Lady have a very similar message.

GOD IS LOVE - therefore LOVE should be the ground of our existence and most define our relationship to GOD and how we live our lives; This LOVE should be the most central aspect of our relationships with one another and undoubtedly be the basis of how we perceive ourselves.

Who could possibly argue against SUCH LOVE - for this is the most basic defination of TRUE RELIGION

Guest2

11-10-2008, 07:21 PM

Religion has ruined Spiritual Belief. I believe
in God, I just don't believe in Religion. :suspicious:

Rod

11-10-2008, 11:06 PM

Religion has ruined Spiritual Belief. I believe
in God, I just don't believe in Religion. :suspicious:

Religion along with 'church' has ruined most spiritual lives. Or in the very least, impeded one's spiritual growth.

Be your own person, and do not allow anyone or any institution that we call 'church' mold you into their image.

Can you tell that I do not advocate organized religion in any way, shape, or form... be it Judaism, Islam, Catholic, or Protestant?

I've come a long long long way since I've proclaimed to have been "saved" on April 6, 1995. Since then I have discovered that I've always been "saved". It just took a rough road to hell and back through orgainzed religion to wake me thee hell UP!

alevin

11-11-2008, 01:25 AM

Quote from Koran, Surah 5:17

OK, time to step in, not to argue but to edify. Having had a number of Muslim friends and associates during an academic period of my life, and as a practicing Christian, I made extensive study of differences and similarities years ago to help me when the subject came up with any of them. I don't claim to be an expert, but I will take this particular issue on.

The reason the Koran denies Jesus as God and son of God, is that Mohammed was exposed to a garbled verbal explanation of Christianity by a family member. There was no written scripture available to them at the time for them to validate what was passed along verbally. Mohammed got the major misunderstanding and impression that Christianity taught that God literally had physical sex with Mary-which completely appalled and horrified him. and so the denial in the Surah is a rebuttal of the claim of physical sex between God and Mary and Jesus being physical son of physical God. And the misunderstanding continues today.

A Somali friend of mine told me many years ago how they explain Jesus' birth without a known father, to a virgin girl in Somali stories. As he told it, a man took a pee/wank alongside the road, wiped himself with a wad of cotton which he then tossed on the ground. Mary came along, did the same bodily function same place (must have been some good brush hiding cover or something), picked up the cotton and reused it and got pregnant from residual active sperm left on the cotton from the previous traveller. Pretty hokey? They think we think God had physical sex with Mary and that's not only hokey to them, but blasphemous to boot. The Koran is trying to set the record straight about God not being a man, and Jesus therefore not god's son. They're trying to set the record straight about Mary and God and who did what when and how. All because they didn't have the written Bible available to check the story and get it straight. Not their fault, they reacted to verbal misinformation about the nature of God. If they'd had the written scripture, the misunderstanding would never have happened and Islam and the Koran would be very different than they are today and our centuries of history with them would be very different than it is.

fabijo

11-11-2008, 09:29 AM

Thanks for the explanation, alevin. But, doesn't the Koran claim to be a clearer revelation to mankind from Allah? Allah would certainly know whether Jesus is His son or not.

alevin

11-11-2008, 09:53 AM

That's what they believe, based on Mohammed's fundamental misunderstanding of what Christians believe-to them the Koran corrects Christian inaccuracies about nature of God, based on the verbal 3d hand garbled version he got from illiterate family member. I'm not defending the Koran as true understanding of God or valid correction of Christian scriptural teachings, just the opposite. If he'd had a copy of scripture-New Testament documents specifically, in his own language, Mohammed would not have perceived any need for Koran as supplement/correction.

Steadygain

11-12-2008, 10:37 AM

Religion along with 'church' has ruined most spiritual lives. Or in the very least, impeded one's spiritual growth.

Sounds like someone needs to blame something instead of taking responsibility for themself. Anyone who depends on a religion, minister, or church to supply your 'Spiritual Needs' and keep you in the proper mindset can not possibly know God on the level that God desires. If you want to be Spiritual then YOU HAVE TO MAKE A POINT of offering your life to God and letting GOD fill you and direct you in every facet of your life. THE CHURCH is nothing more than a body of believers that are all flawed to the core and will remain flawed. But if they inspire each other to dig deeper and find the greater truths and work together for God's Glory then that is the kind of CHURCH where a believer should strive to encourage and support.

Be your own person, and do not allow anyone or any institution that we call 'church' mold you into their image.

Unless that image is the TRUE IMAGE of CHRIST and the LOVE that purely stems from God's Grace and Glory and is truely to his honor. Here you will see God at work - reaching out to others in a true spirit of yearning and sacrifice.

Can you tell that I do not advocate organized religion in any way, shape, or form... be it Judaism, Islam, Catholic, or Protestant?

I can tell you are bitter and somehow blame organized religion for misunderstanding the TRUE NATURE OF GOD and GOD's LOVE FOR YOU AND HOW IT WAS MEANT TO WORK IN YOUR LIFE. But I can not change what has happened and how you perceived it. I can only say I'm sorry it happened.

I've come a long long long way since I've proclaimed to have been "saved" on April 6, 1995.
From what were you saved? From bitterness that seeps deeply inside you? From anger towards how you felt deceived? From having to experience hardships and misundertandings and having the stench attached to them totally taken away?

Were you brought into a better understanding where by God took you to a different plain? Where His Love and Life filled you and made you realize that His Spirit blending with Yours are the only thing that really matter? Have you honestly learned true FORGIVENESS through His Grace or do you insist on holding on to negative aspects that work against that Grace?

Since then I have discovered that I've always been "saved".
If you have always been saved, then why would there ever have been a need for God?? ALWAYS BEEN SAVED - implies you never had a need for salvation. You were always whole; always perfect in every way possible.

It just took a rough road to hell and back through orgainzed religion to wake me thee hell UP!

Please know that I'm not out to be your enemy and I'm honestly not trying to embarrass you or make you mad or anything like that. If you make comments like this on an open forum then I hope you respect someone like me to ask questions or make comments; because what you have expressed is associated with a lot of anger and resentment and you've made some very bold statements. So I'm respectfully confused.

That's what they believe, based on Mohammed's fundamental misunderstanding of what Christians believe-to them the Koran corrects Christian inaccuracies about nature of God, based on the verbal 3d hand garbled version he got from illiterate family member.

I sincerely appreciate your input and this helps me a great deal in understanding this aspect by which they hold their belief.

From my perspective it doesn't make any difference wheather you believe everything was created in 6 literal days; if Mary was a virgin...

The only thing that really makes a difference is the Spirit of God becoming the most dominate aspect of our existence. If such a Spirit brings us in Harmony with the Spirit of Christ and the LOVE by which He is Known then everything else is meaningless and I would not waste my time arguing with someone on more trivial matters. Would that make me love them any less at this point in time NO.

The focus should be God's LOVE and the ability to assimilate that LOVE to every person we encounter.

I'm not defending the Koran as true understanding of God or valid correction of Christian scriptural teachings, just the opposite. If he'd had a copy of scripture-New Testament documents specifically, in his own language, Mohammed would not have perceived any need for Koran as supplement/correction.

You're wonderful ! What you are trying to do is help us to appreciate how another religion can hold equally 'sacred views' and how a better understanding can dispel friction and bridge harmony.

Rod

11-12-2008, 07:51 PM

Please know that I'm not out to be your enemy and I'm honestly not trying to embarrass you or make you mad or anything like that. If you make comments like this on an open forum then I hope you respect someone like me to ask questions or make comments; because what you have expressed is associated with a lot of anger and resentment and you've made some very bold statements. So I'm respectfully confused. [/B]

There's no need for you to be confused. But, there is a need for you to understand where I am coming from. My bottom line is there is no need for organized religion to nurture my spiritual needs. There are those who are emotional needy creatures, and need to be spoon fed by a local church with all of its "spiritual" thrills and frills. But unfortunately, they will only open themselves up to spiritual abuse and control once they become a member.

The abuse and control can become so subtle and deceptive that the member is blind to it until they eventually (and hopefully) have the veil lifted from their face. One example of such control is with one's finances, and how much they should "bring into the storehouse".:rolleyes:

It's funny how someone like myself is "bitter" because I do not participate or advocate participating in organized religion, and call it out for what it is.

There are plenty of Christians out there who feel the same way I do. I'm simply bold enough to speak out.

Organized religion always has a "hidden" agenda (33,000+ individual agendas). And you're only fooling yourself if you disagree.

Me and a few friends who come together within the privacy of our own homes, or wherever, to worship our God do not.

Buster

11-12-2008, 08:04 PM

There are those who are emotional needy creatures, and need to be spoon fed by a local church with all of its "spiritual" thrills and frills. But unfortunately, they will only open themselves up to spiritual abuse and control once they become a member.
There are plenty of Christians out there who feel the same way I do. I'm simply bold enough to speak out.
.

Amen Brother...

Jim Jones' comes to mind..Kool-aid anyone?

wv-girl

11-12-2008, 11:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steadygain http://www.tsptalk.com/mb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.tsptalk.com/mb/showthread.php?p=193717#post193717)
Please know that I'm not out to be your enemy and I'm honestly not trying to embarrass you or make you mad or anything like that. If you make comments like this on an open forum then I hope you respect someone like me to ask questions or make comments; because what you have expressed is associated with a lot of anger and resentment and you've made some very bold statements. So I'm respectfully confused. [/b]

There's no need for you to be confused. But, there is a need for you to understand where I am coming from. My bottom line is there is no need for organized religion to nurture my spiritual needs. There are those who are emotional needy creatures, and need to be spoon fed by a local church with all of its "spiritual" thrills and frills. But unfortunately, they will only open themselves up to spiritual abuse and control once they become a member.

The abuse and control can become so subtle and deceptive that the member is blind to it until they eventually (and hopefully) have the veil lifted from their face. One example of such control is with one's finances, and how much they should "bring into the storehouse".:rolleyes:

It's funny how someone like myself is "bitter" because I do not participate or advocate participating in organized religion, and call it out for what it is.

There are plenty of Christians out there who feel the same way I do. I'm simply bold enough to speak out.

Organized religion always has a "hidden" agenda (33,000+ individual agendas). And you're only fooling yourself if you disagree.

Me and a few friends who come together within the privacy of our own homes, or wherever, to worship our God do not.

Gentleman:
"When two or more are gathered in HIS name, HE is there." .

Steadygain

11-13-2008, 08:03 AM

There's no need for you to be confused. But, there is a need for you to understand where I am coming from. My bottom line is there is no need for organized religion to nurture my spiritual needs.

My brother and friend - without understanding there is confusion.

You and I are on the same page my friend. I despise the Idiosyncrasies that give each of the thousands of churches their distinction. These doctrines are MEANINGLESS - and often DESTRUCTIVE - and I have left many churches because of that.

One church that had the most beautiful and openly authentic worship to God - with the Spirit of God moving in mighty ways turned out to be perhaps my biggest disappointment. They called me into the higher leadership of the church and it was during that meeting that I discovered "I had to proclaim that being Baptised in their water was a requirement for Salvation; in otherwords the Spirit of God could not/and would not enter any person apart from that".

I told them that destoys everything Christ stands for and to preach such a message would be 'spitting into the face of God'. So now I see your anger is not directed at God - but against the many structures (churches) in the name of GOD - that undermine the true message of Grace and somehow impede TRUE SPIRITUAL LIFE and CELEBRATION and GROWTH.

Now I see that your primary message is the same as mine: That being filled with God's Spirit and Grace and letting His Love dominate your life - HAS TO BE A PERSONAL ENDEAVOR - and you will find more freedom to discover God in your own home - than simply going to church and following the crowd.

May we stand strong and give all glory to Christ alone.

Buster

11-13-2008, 08:18 AM

I must say...this has turned into a wonderfully enlightening and beautiful thread and topic...If I do say so myself:D

Keep it going this way

God Bless:)

Steadygain

11-13-2008, 08:26 AM

I must say...this has turned into a wonderfully enlightening and beautiful thread and topic...If I do say so myself:D

Keep it going this way

God Bless:)

We can take NO credit for this - other than the simple acknowledgement of TRUTH.

WV-girl said it all and that is everything.

"When two or more are gathered in HIS name, HE is there." .

When we simply except GOD for who and what He represents and focus only on that He gathers us in His Spirit and we acknowledge His abundant Grace.

Thank you Debbie ;)

Frixxxx

11-13-2008, 09:04 AM

Quote:
Gentleman:
"When two or more are gathered in HIS name, HE is there." .
Amen!

One church that had the most beautiful and openly authentic worship to God - with the Spirit of God moving in mighty ways turned out to be perhaps my biggest disappointment. They called me into the higher leadership of the church and it was during that meeting that I discovered "I had to proclaim that being Baptised in their water was a requirement for Salvation; in otherwords the Spirit of God could not/and would not enter any person apart from that".

May we stand strong and give all glory to Christ alone.
They were like lost sheep that were in need of a shepherd!

I must say...this has turned into a wonderfully enlightening and beautiful thread and topic...If I do say so myself:D
Keep it going this way
God Bless:)

My belief is that a church is parts that make up the whole. Evil exists everwhere good exists. It is up to us to vanquish evil even unto the holy places. I go to church to profess my love and speak of my salvation. I do this because I was asked to do so.

And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. Acts 10:42 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=10&verse=42&version=9&context=verse)

Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.1 Corinthians 14:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=19&version=9&context=verse)

Steadygain

11-13-2008, 09:28 AM

I go to church to profess my love and speak of my salvation. I do this because....

I do it mainly because the fellowship of other believers is essential to our Spiritual Growth and helps us bask in the presense of God's Spirit and we share our lives in a manner that keeps us in God's Word and living in His Spirit.

My friend Tom who passed away began a 'firewood ministry' on God's leading and donated everything to build homes for those in need. He (and others working with him) had gathered over $75,000 which was wholly for God's Glory. We have a food pantry for those in need; we go in groups around the world to help restore areas hit with natural disasters and support churches in places like Russia. Many of us (such as my daughter in Korea have their own unique ministry - and serve God with all their heart and by the life they live) and it is largely this sharing with one another and praying for each other that keep us more in Touch with His Spirit.

I go to both feed and be fed. I give 10% off the top in an offering and simply trust that God will use it as He sees fit. The church I attend is now my family. It is a United Methodist Church but I do not claim to be a 'Methodist' - for the doctrines are trival and essentially meaningless. So I am like Rod - in that I refuse to be pinned in by any doctrine apart from Christ - yet I reap the benefits of being a part of a wonderful group of people.

Rod

11-13-2008, 03:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by wv-girl
Gentleman:
"When two or more are gathered in HIS name, HE is there." .

I concur. That's even further evidence of no need for organized congregations.;)

Heck, when you think about it, and the experiences you have had personally, He is even there when you are simply alone with Him.

Rod

11-13-2008, 03:14 PM

My brother and friend - without understanding there is confusion.

You and I are on the same page my friend. I despise the Idiosyncrasies that give each of the thousands of churches their distinction. These doctrines are MEANINGLESS - and often DESTRUCTIVE - and I have left many churches because of that.

One church that had the most beautiful and openly authentic worship to God - with the Spirit of God moving in mighty ways turned out to be perhaps my biggest disappointment. They called me into the higher leadership of the church and it was during that meeting that I discovered "I had to proclaim that being Baptised in their water was a requirement for Salvation; in otherwords the Spirit of God could not/and would not enter any person apart from that".

I told them that destoys everything Christ stands for and to preach such a message would be 'spitting into the face of God'. So now I see your anger is not directed at God - but against the many structures (churches) in the name of GOD - that undermine the true message of Grace and somehow impede TRUE SPIRITUAL LIFE and CELEBRATION and GROWTH.

Now I see that your primary message is the same as mine: That being filled with God's Spirit and Grace and letting His Love dominate your life - HAS TO BE A PERSONAL ENDEAVOR - and you will find more freedom to discover God in your own home - than simply going to church and following the crowd.

May we stand strong and give all glory to Christ alone.

We are in agreement.:)

Rod

11-13-2008, 03:18 PM

So now I see your anger is not directed at God - but against the many structures (churches) in the name of GOD - that undermine the true message of Grace and somehow impede TRUE SPIRITUAL LIFE and CELEBRATION and GROWTH.

YES, YES, and YES!

XL-entLady

11-13-2008, 03:37 PM

Has anyone on the MB read "Jesus: A Story of Enlightenment" yet? This is religious fiction by Deepak Chopra.

Just curious.

Lady

Rod

11-13-2008, 03:44 PM

I must say...this has turned into a wonderfully enlightening and beautiful thread and topic...If I do say so myself:D

Keep it going this way

God Bless:)

I normally stay away from such topics (especially after debating theology online for years, for which I became burned out).

But, one thing that debate is healthy for is causing you to dig deeper into your soul and the Scriptures to find the reasons WHY you believe the way you do. As the Bereans were wise to do, we are to follow their example:

They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth. Acts 17:11

Because of these many debates and countless hours in the Scriptures, I now have a better understanding of why I believe and do not believe certain doctrines. For example, I used to tithe simply because I was taught that I was robbing God if I did not. Then I studied the context and historical significance of tithing (both inside and outside of the Scriptures), and the context that Jesus condoned it- only in the context of the law-keepers- the Pharisees. Then the Apostle Paul vidicated what I believed to be accurate and true,

You should each give what you have decided in your heart to give. You shouldn't give if you don't want to. You shouldn't give because you are forced to. God loves a cheerful giver. 2 Cor 9:7

Just because it comes from the pulpit, or is written within doctrines and decrees doesn't make it Gospel.

In context, what do the Scriptures teach?

Buster

11-13-2008, 06:32 PM

In context, what do the Scriptures teach?

One word...TRUTH!

Buster

11-13-2008, 06:35 PM

Has anyone on the MB read "Jesus: A Story of Enlightenment" yet? This is religious fiction by Deepak Chopra.

Just curious.

Lady
Wasn't he the rapper that was assasinated in Vegas?

wv-girl

11-13-2008, 07:38 PM

Heck, when you think about it, and the experiences you have had personally, He is even there when you are simply alone with Him.
Yes, I have found that is very true. However, that is a whole other conversation and would not have addressed the debate :)

XL-entLady

11-13-2008, 07:53 PM

Has anyone on the MB read "Jesus: A Story of Enlightenment" yet? This is religious fiction by Deepak Chopra.
Just curious.
Lady

Wasn't he the rapper that was assasinated in Vegas?
Do we need the "tongue in cheek" emoticon again? :confused:

Just in case that was a serious question, the answer is, "No!" The longer answer is that he is an Indian (as in, from India) medical doctor who once stated, "It’s time to rescue "intelligent design" from the politics of religion. There are too many riddles not yet answered by either biology or the Bible, and by asking them honestly, without foregone conclusions, science could take a huge leap forward." :)

Lady

Rod

11-13-2008, 08:46 PM

One word...TRUTH!

Yes, one will come to truth if the Scriptures are studied within their context. And I'm not simply talking about taking the surrounding text into account. I'm talking about taking culture, tradition, history, etc. etc. into account.

FWIW,

Who did Christ come to save?

He came to save His people, the Jews. Unless you are Jewish, Christ did not initially come to save you- a Gentile. Shocked???

As a Gentile, you were eventually "grafted" in because of Israel's unbelief that Jesus came to save them from their sins. God used Gentiles to stir up envy within the apple of His eye, Israel!

That, my friend, is the grace of God!

Here are some key Scriptures, in no particular order:

She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.

These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come and has redeemed his people.

Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and talked abusively against what Paul was saying.

Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first (the Jews). Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
" 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth."

On arriving there, they gathered the church together and reported all that God had done through them and how he had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.

This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Knowing that Christ initially came to save His people, the Jews, makes me that much more appreciative of God extending His grace to me, a Gentile.

Rod

11-13-2008, 08:48 PM

However, that is a whole other conversation and would not have addressed the debate :)

It was a thought. That's what it was, whether it addressed the debate or not.:toung:

;)

PessOptimist

11-13-2008, 10:16 PM

A Somali friend of mine told me many years ago how they explain Jesus' birth without a known father, to a virgin girl in Somali stories. As he told it, a man took a pee/wank alongside the road, wiped himself with a wad of cotton which he then tossed on the ground. Mary came along, did the same bodily function same place (must have been some good brush hiding cover or something), picked up the cotton and reused it and got pregnant from residual active sperm left on the cotton from the previous traveller. Pretty hokey? They think we think God had physical sex with Mary and that's not only hokey to them, but blasphemous to boot.

No wonder muslims laugh at us. Mary, practically deified in some christian faiths, was the issue of some wanker.

This thread has devolved to the point of proselytism by members of one faith who believe in one book, the authorship and authenticity of which are open to debate.

OK, I'm sure i am going to...whatever you believe.

Started out as a good thread.

Buster

11-14-2008, 05:55 AM

No wonder muslims laugh at us. Mary, practically deified in some christian faiths, was the issue of some wanker.

This thread has devolved to the point of proselytism by members of one faith who believe in one book, the authorship and authenticity of which are open to debate.

OK, I'm sure i am going to...whatever you believe.

Started out as a good thread.

Until you started your criticism of these opinions and views..You have corrupted this thread now...So, GO AWAY!!!

XL-entLady

11-14-2008, 07:22 AM

Buster

11-14-2008, 07:30 AM

Unfortunately, my suspicions are confirmed. Given the human condition, it may be impossible to have an extended conversation about religion without bringing negative feelings into the mix. I thought the concept of Deity is supposed to make us better not more argumentative. But the subject devolves into rancor in my "other" world as well. :rolleyes:

"You cannot antagonize and persuade at the same time." -John Knox
:)
Lady
It's okay Lady...only one negative comment...so maybe we can continue the original course of discussion, without further degradation.

And yes, my tongue was firmly in cheek on my earlier post to you:D..you should know me by now.:cheesy:

Rod

11-14-2008, 07:58 AM

This thread has devolved to the point of proselytism by members of one faith who believe in one book, the authorship and authenticity of which are open to debate.

OK, I'm sure i am going to...whatever you believe.

Started out as a good thread.

OK, let's get the thread back on topic... "Christianity vs. Islam".

Buster

11-14-2008, 09:23 AM

OK, let's get the thread back on topic... "Christianity vs. Islam".
Which is why I considered this topic..it all boils down to who was the son of Abraham to be Sacrificed to show his love of God..Isaac or Ishmael?

Islam (Mohammad) believes it was Ishmael..Christians/Jews believe it was Isaac..This is the root of the differences as I've come to learn.

wv-girl

11-14-2008, 09:36 AM

Which is why I considered this topic..it all boils down to who was the son of Abraham to be Sacrificed to show his love of God..Isaac or Ishmael?

Islam (Mohammad) believes it was Ishmael..Christians/Jews believe it was Isaac..This is the root of the differences as I've come to learn.
Maybe it was just following what the Lord said and that is the lesson? Could it be that he loved both sons equally? And the true test was obedience instead of which son? As a parent could you choose? Would you choose?

XL-entLady

11-14-2008, 09:45 AM

Islam (Mohammad) believes it was Ishmael..Christians/Jews believe it was Isaac..This is the root of the differences ....
And it's been a lethal case of sibling rivalry ever since. Too bad we can't be "Christianity & Islam" instead of "Christianity vs Islam". :worried:

"Not one of you is a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself." Islam. Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 13

"If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen." 1 John 4:20

:)
Lady

FUTURESTRADER

11-14-2008, 09:48 AM

And it's been a lethal case of sibling rivalry ever since. Too bad we can't be "Christianity & Islam" instead of "Christianity vs Islam". :worried:

"Not one of you is a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself." Islam. Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 13

"If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen." 1 John 4:20

:)
Lady

I was thinking the same thing, Lady. Change the thread header.

Buster

11-14-2008, 09:54 AM

And it's been a lethal case of sibling rivalry ever since. Too bad we can't be "Christianity & Islam" instead of "Christianity vs Islam". :worried:

"Not one of you is a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself." Islam. Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 13

"If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen." 1 John 4:20

:)
Lady
Problem is..Islam, at least the fundamental fanatics...exercise the broadest sense of hypocrisy of any religion...
If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar..I don't think I need to point out any examples..9-11 was a pretty good one..:(

Buster

11-14-2008, 09:57 AM

I was thinking the same thing, Lady. Change the thread header.
Then that would mean there is no strife...and that isn't the case by a long shot..There is plenty of hate and strife and differences..Not in the sense we are playing a ball game either, but a holy battle for world domination..I don't think Modern Christians and Jews are trying to dominate by force and death to non believers..At least I haven't heard of any beheading lately in the name of God..

Buster

11-14-2008, 10:05 AM

Maybe it was just following what the Lord said and that is the lesson? Could it be that he loved both sons equally? And the true test was obedience instead of which son? As a parent could you choose? Would you choose?
That was the fundamental message there...But beyond the point of the story....Islam wants credit for it and Christians wants credit for it as to which spawned the later foundation for either's religions..Go back and read the first post in this Thread.. or this.. http://www.bible-koran.com/English/Articles/Isaac_or_Ishmael/isaac_or_ishmael.html

Koran = 19:54 “Also mention in the Book [the story of] Ishmael: He was [strictly] true to what he promised, and he was a messenger [and] a prophet”.

Bible = Genesis 16:12 “And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him”

There in lies the root of the problems we are seeing today between the two religions..

FUTURESTRADER

11-14-2008, 10:29 AM

Then that would mean there is no strife...and that isn't the case by a long shot..There is plenty of hate and strife and differences..Not in the sense we are playing a ball game either, but a holy battle for world domination..I don't think Modern Christians and Jews are trying to dominate by force and death to non believers..At least I haven't heard of any beheading lately in the name of God..

lately??...beheadings occurred just a few years ago, which might as well be yesterday on a biblical timeline.

XL-entLady

11-14-2008, 10:29 AM

Problem is..Islam, at least the fundamental fanatics...exercise the broadest sense of hypocrisy of any religion...
Quote:
If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar
..I don't think I need to point out any examples..9-11 was a pretty good one..:(
So there aren't any Christian fundamental fanatic wackos who don't abide by the "love thy brother" precept? I'm so happy to hear that! :blink: I feel much better now. :rolleyes: ;)

Lady

Buster

11-14-2008, 10:35 AM

So there aren't any Christian fundamental fanatic wackos who don't abide by the "love thy brother" precept? I'm so happy to hear that! :blink: I feel much better now. :rolleyes: ;)

LadySarcasim is not your best suit....http://www.hummeraddicts.com/Smileys/Lots_O_Smileys/nono.gif

But to answer your question..I think the cells of the Christian fundumental fanatics are a far and few compared to the Isalmic factions..and a good example is the KKK...So yes, there is radicals in every religion, just not as many as in Islam.

Buster

11-14-2008, 10:50 AM

lately??...beheadings occurred just a few years ago, which might as well be yesterday on a biblical timeline.
HUH, really? When and where (keeping in it the 20th or 21st century if you can), in the name of Christianity?..:confused:

FUTURESTRADER

11-14-2008, 10:57 AM

HUH, really? When and where (keeping in it the 20th or 21st century if you can), in the name of Christianity?..:confused:

sorry, my bad. I was only giving the arguement half the attention some think it's due :D

Steadygain

11-14-2008, 11:06 AM

There in lies the root of the problems we are seeing today between the two religions..

I wish it were that simple my friend but I think it's much more complicated. We (as citizens of the United States - and as Christians) have largely been deeply grounded in prejudical views of the Islam religion. It is almost impossible to view them as our brothers and sisters; and wanting essentially the same peace and harmony. We think of mainly the 'radical extremists' and lump almost everything in that light. Sarah is the one who encouraged Abraham to have a child with Hagar and subsequently he was indeed his first son. It's a tough situation when you look at how Sarah treated Hagar after she bore a son for Abraham and largely forced Abraham to take them out in the desert and abandon them.

BUT the main point behind all this was GOD meant for them to know that he intended for Sarah to bear the son - and subsequently this came to pass.

Personally I don't think we should let something as trival as that devide us; it may be that the only way Christians or Islams can bring the other to their side is by demonstating a better love. Whoever lives their lives reflecting God's Grace and Glory will ultimately show the other a better way.

fabijo

11-14-2008, 10:11 PM

Koran, Surah 5:51

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

Buster

11-14-2008, 10:15 PM

Koran, Surah 5:51
Pretty much says it all don't it..?

Buster

11-14-2008, 10:23 PM

I wish it were that simple my friend but I think it's much more complicated. We (as citizens of the United States - and as Christians) have largely been deeply grounded in prejudical views of the Islam religion. It is almost impossible to view them as our brothers and sisters; and wanting essentially the same peace and harmony. We think of mainly the 'radical extremists' and lump almost everything in that light. Sarah is the one who encouraged Abraham to have a child with Hagar and subsequently he was indeed his first son. It's a tough situation when you look at how Sarah treated Hagar after she bore a son for Abraham and largely forced Abraham to take them out in the desert and abandon them.

BUT the main point behind all this was GOD meant for them to know that he intended for Sarah to bear the son - and subsequently this came to pass.

Personally I don't think we should let something as trival as that devide us; it may be that the only way Christians or Islams can bring the other to their side is by demonstating a better love. Whoever lives their lives reflecting God's Grace and Glory will ultimately show the other a better way.
I'm not saying there isn't more to it than just that..I'm saying this is where it all started..the basic fundamental ROOT cause where the differences begin...they take on monstrous proportions after this time of Abraham and his family of course..

And Yes, YES to the comments below about the title of this thread..I do too wish it could be Christians and Muslims living along side each other, happily ever after..but we all know that's how a fairy tale ends too...See Fabijo post..
O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

fabijo

11-14-2008, 10:26 PM

Pretty much says it all don't it..?

It's crazy. Someone gave me this Koran years ago, but since this thread started, I decided to flip through it to see what it says. It's pretty quick and easy to find references to Jews and Christians; Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc... I still don't quite get what the Koran is supposed to be. I don't know if it is supposed to be considered the Word of Allah, or the words of Mohammad, speaking what he thinks of Allah.

Buster

11-14-2008, 10:37 PM

It's crazy. Someone gave me this Koran years ago, but since this thread started, I decided to flip through it to see what it says. It's pretty quick and easy to find references to Jews and Christians; Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc... I still don't quite get what the Koran is supposed to be. I don't know if it is supposed to be considered the Word of Allah, or the words of Mohammad, speaking what he thinks of Allah.
Isn't it funny though..In the Bible (King James) I see nothing referencing hating, disliking or killing others that are non believers, nor does it specifically name any one religion to stay away from... I know it won't mention the Islamic faith, as it wasn't invented yet while the Bible was being written..

But I think Mohammad did too much Hashish to tell you the truth..

Some American Indians performed religious ceremonies and incantations while spiritually engaged with peyote buttons..(Read http://peyote.com/carlos-castaneda/index.html)

alevin

11-15-2008, 12:56 AM

Isn't it funny though..In the Bible (King James) I see nothing referencing hating, disliking or killing others that are non believers, nor does it specifically name any one religion to stay away from... I know it won't mention the Islamic faith, as it wasn't invented yet while the Bible was being written..

But I think Mohammad did too much Hashish to tell you the truth..

Sorry Buster, don't believe he has ever been connected with the substance. You're probably thinking of the Hashashin (the Assassins), who were a branch of the Shia, which split from the Sunni's after Mohammed died. The Shia and Sunni disagreed on who should follow Mohammed as leader after he died. The Hashashin disappeared as a political/religious sect in the late 13th century due to religious/political strife with neighbors and Mongol invaders, and may have had nothing to do with hashish, according to Wiki article on Hashashin.

Fab, as far as Koran goes, it was written down after Mohammed died, and is a collection of his spoken edicts and revelations/visions he talked about during his life. His spoken communications got more legalistic and prescriptive as time went on after he started building a monotheistic empire and society by conquering all the neighboring pagan people who worshiped many gods. He was known to have "fits" or "spells" even before he started having experiences he thought were angel Gabriel talking to him. May have been epilepsy, schizophrenia, something else entirely.

Ordinary Muslims are not encouraged to study the Koran and think about what it says in the same sense we think of Bible study. They are encouraged to memorize so they can "recite" passages.

Rod

11-15-2008, 10:25 AM

Isn't it funny though..In the Bible (King James) I see nothing referencing hating, disliking or killing others that are non believers,

At least you did not declare that the Bible does not speak of such things, but only said you did not see anything. That said, I will point out some Scripture...

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Deut 13:6-11

Within this context, God does not command the killing of a non believer for the sake of being a non believer, but one who tries to lead astray a believer. Even if the non-believer was family, they were to be killed.

If there be found among you...man or woman...(that)hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven...Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Deut 17:1-5

Remember, God IS A JEALOUS GOD.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jesus- Mark 16:16

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Jesus- Mat 10:14-15

And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Peter- Acts 3:23

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ...

Romans 16:17,18

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

2 Cor 6:14-18

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

2 John 9-11

Christians must disassociate themselves with non believers. Yes, believers are to proclaim the Gospel. But believers are not to maintain close relationships with anyone who is a non believer.

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jude 1:5

It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:31

This is but a sampling.

Note that I used the KJV since that is the version you referenced.

Bottom line is that even in light of "The Golden Rule", the Bible clearly teaches intolerance for the non believer.

Are you now going to strictly define your definition of "non believer"? ;)

Peace:cool:

Buster

11-15-2008, 01:10 PM

Are you now going to strictly define your definition of "non believer"? ;)

Peace:cool:
Yes..in regards to the KJV Bible..the non believe is one that worships false gods and those that try to corrupt and sway those that believe in the one Almighty God, those messengers of Satan should be put to death...

But My point was that Islamic Koran commands their kind to KILL, SLAY those that are NON Believers in their BOOK..Koran..Christians and Muslims do share the same GOD, so that ain't the issue, The Bible is about believing in false deities and corrupting God's believers in him. Muslims, they believe NON believers in their religion should be killed..period..

Anyways, that's the way I see it and I will stone you if you try to change my mind..:D

fabijo

11-15-2008, 01:33 PM

Rod - thanks for the verses. However, there are people who dispute Paul's apostleship status. Jesus never mentions him. The only testimony about Paul's encounter with Jesus is from Paul himself. Paul's own testimony about conversion happened without any believers around. Jesus did speak with Peter and even said that upon Peter, the church shall be built. But for some reason, Paul's letters make up most of the New Testament. Paul even gives his testimony differently to different people (In one account, he says Jesus told him that he'd go to the Gentiles while he was on the road to Damascus. In another account, he says that Jesus didn't tell him that until 3 years later, when he was praying). Sure, he preached the gospel, but he also said some things that were contrary to the way Jesus taught and acted.

alevin

11-15-2008, 07:52 PM

I will point out some Scripture...

Christians must disassociate themselves with non believers. Yes, believers are to proclaim the Gospel. But believers are not to maintain close relationships with anyone who is a non believer.

Bottom line is that even in light of "The Golden Rule", the Bible clearly teaches intolerance for the non believer.

Peace:cool:

Rod, the Bible says many things. And you were very much on-track the other day when you emphasized the need to consider context and history associated with the verses referenced. A reminder here,
"And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband..." I Corinthians 7:13-14a. ,

however....if the spouse doesn't want to stick around.... I Corinthians 7:15 says, "But if the unbelieving depart, let him [her] depart."

So, there is a time and place for everything, including relationships to the extent that genuine relationships are possible. It's tough to have really close relationship with someone when something so important is not shared, which is why it's a whole lot easier to marry someone who shares that faith fromthe getgo. That's also why we are called to love people and interact with them in our daily lives, so they can see Christ in us and be drawn into relationship with Him-on God's timetable, not ours.

"Be in the world, not of the world"-means don't get sucked into values and attitudes of the world around us that would be displeasing to God who loves all people despite themselves, it doesn't mean crawl into a hole and only associate with other believers. Paul told Timothy not to neglect gathering together with other believers, which tells me it's something we need to do, it doesn't mean its the only thing we're supposed to do.

He doesn't want groundhog followers, but there is recognition that we are human and can be unduly influenced by values and attitudes that dishonor God if we do not balance how we spend time and who we spend it with and why. that balance in expenditure of life energy goes for books and TV and radio and video games etc. too, in my way of thinking. Peace.

fabijo

11-16-2008, 12:09 AM

alevin

11-16-2008, 10:49 AM

I've heard that phrase many times - Be in the world, not of the world - but it's not in the Bible. The closest I found it is where Jesus is praying for His disciples.

My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. - John 17:15-16

Absolutely correct, Fab. My quote is a paraphrase used for application to daily living, not exact quote. ;)

Who did Jesus spend time with? kids (no social standing in their society) and sinners like tax collectors (some of the most despised people in their society at the time), lepers and other "unclean" people, non-monogomous women, people who doubted or were confused but who were trying to understand or willing to listen at least, non-Jews (Roman officer), heretics (Samaritans), other people shunned by Jewish society at the time. In fact the rule-following religious people chastized and judged him for spending time with all the "wrong" people.

He spent time with the "wrong" people and their lives were transformed by spending time with Him, he didn't avoid them or judge them like everyone else did, his attitude towards them moved them to want to be different.

So if Jesus asked God the Father not to rescue his followers out of the physical world filled with trials and tribulations, enemies and unlikeable people like Romans and tax collectors etc. (ie to Heaven the perfect place), where does that leave us? Here in the everyday world for a purpose, Gods purpose, without living by the world's values and attitudes. Thats my understanding and my point.

fabijo

11-17-2008, 12:06 AM

Amen, alevin. And that's what I was trying to say earlier about some differences between Paul and Jesus. For some reason, people treat Paul's words as God's words - even when they differ from our Lord Jesus and the way Jesus acted. Paul was a brother in the Lord, but I think we've taken it too far by equating Paul's words with God's words. Paul himself even says in a few instances that he is speaking, not the Holy Spirit.

alevin

11-17-2008, 07:36 AM

For some reason, people treat Paul's words as God's words - even when they differ from our Lord Jesus and the way Jesus acted. I think we've taken it too far by equating Paul's words with God's words. Paul himself even says in a few instances that he is speaking, not the Holy Spirit.

You are not the first to question Paul's role and writings, and you probably won't be the last, Fab. all the more reason to continue studying the Bible as a whole with a teachable mindset. Have you considered what Peter had to say on the subject? Peter had an attitude adjustment curve about Paul's place too if you trace the development of their relationship through the NT.

Peter eventually had this to say..."our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him...His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, that ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other scriptures, to their own destruction." (2 Peter 3: 15-16). Peter ultimately acknowledged Paul's legitimacy and his writings as authoritative for believers. That's how they ended up in the NT. As far as the "people" he was referring to-read the rest of the letter for context, as in all other study of scripture, historical context matters as Rod said.

If the word destruction bothers you, consider people who smoke, even after it starts affecting their health, despite all the written warnings, until their disregard and refusal to believe the truth about the dangers of tobacco use ends up destroying them. Nobody else did it to them.

Headed out of town for a couple days, will be away from keyboard. Much to do yet before heading out, so signing off for now. Peace, brother.