Retirement and Sick Leave

In the Feb 21, 2005 Federal Times, there is an article by Reg Jones that'sinteresting. He mentions that CSRS employees are allowed to have their unused sick leave added to their earned service time when they retire, so as to increase the amount of their annuities. FERS employees do not have this luxury.Interestingly, the sick leave perk was only added in 1969, in order to reduce the use of sick leave among employees approaching retirement. A recent study shows that FERS people use substantially more sick leave, particularly when nearing retirement. It's becoming a problem. At the same time,it's being noted that many private corporations credit leave. Such a policy is now being reconsidered for FERS...

[Montana]

Yeah, I'mSICK of being penalized for being HEALTHY. :!

[Mike]

I deal with most of the lab's sick calls when I'm working, and to say it's abused is an understatement. :shock:

I told the supervisors that these people are lucky I am not in charge and have the authority to fire because I would certainly do that if I could. :s:s:s

[poor-nurse101]

OUCH!! Sick time is a benefit to be used Mike...A benefit of employment just like TSP;)

[Mike]

I know for a fact that people are using it extensively when they aren't sick.

That's unprofessional and is a horrible disservice to the veterans whose medical care falls in part under the jurisdiction of these people.

[Montana]

I'm with you Mike. I just wouldn't feel good about myself if I lied about being sick even though I see it being abused by virtually all my co-workers. If we got credit for it, I don't think it would be as abused.

[azanon]

I have to put at least half of the blame on those that changed sick leave in FERS. If you're not going to give the employee any credit for not using their sick leave, then wth do you expectemployees to do?

If i call in sick, what are you going to do, call me a lier? Quit penalizing people, in effect,for not using sick leave, andthey'llquit calling in sick.

The current system penalizes the honest and the healthy. What's wrong with this picture besides the obvious? Worse, the honest are having their heart strings tugged at to even "donate" their AL for those that abused their SL in the past and thus have none to use for a chronic illness.

[Spaf]

azanon wrote: I have to put at least half of the blame on those that changed sick leave in FERS.
The current system penalizes the honest and the healthy.
My list of being penalized gets longer each day. It starts with FERS and keep right on going. My discrimination meter blew a fuse. The misuse and abuse lights burned out years ago.


Rgds :X Spaf

[Mike]

Yes, the lack of compensation for unused leave is certainly a major problem.

However, I still do not believe that is sufficient cause to justify abusing the leave. That's unprofessional and a gross disservice to those we are supposed to be helping.

BTW, I would have no qualms about calling certain people liars. Getting "sick" every couple of weeks year-round? I don't buy it.

[Show-me]

Spaf wrote: azanon wrote: I have to put at least half of the blame on those that changed sick leave in FERS.
The current system penalizes the honest and the healthy.
My list of being penalized gets longer each day. It starts with FERS and keep right on going. My discrimination meter blew a fuse. The misuse and abuse lights burned out years ago.


Rgds :X Spaf

Amen!

People will always abuse any system and yes we are getting the short end of the stick in FERS.

Point is you never plan onbeingsick or in a accident. Bank your sick leave ( 6 months or more) while you are young and in good health because you have a good chance of being sick when you get older. I have seen it to many times in our office.

For those who "burn" their SL for long weekend, time off, and because of "use it or lose it". So sorry you did not use the system to plan for your future. I will not donate one fraction of a hour to you when you get ill. You had the same opportunity to protect yourself as the rest of us. (Sound like the people who don't PLAN for retirement.) You want to burn some fine, save some first!

Protect you and yours because no one else will.

[Mike]

We can be the ant or the grasshopper...

Ants are industrious and strong, so I think I side with them. Besides, women generally like those qualities. :^

azanon wrote: I have to put at least half of the blame on those that changed sick leave in FERS. If you're not going to give the employee any credit for not using their sick leave, then wth do you expectemployees to do?

If i call in sick, what are you going to do, call me a lier? Quit penalizing people, in effect,for not using sick leave, andthey'llquit calling in sick.

The current system penalizes the honest and the healthy. What's wrong with this picture besides the obvious? Worse, the honest are having their heart strings tugged at to even "donate" their AL for those that abused their SL in the past and thus have none to use for a chronic illness.
Absolutely. I never understood donating leave either..

[cowboy]

Hopefully they will realize this and change it so we get credit for being good employees. SL abuse is getting worse, and for those that are abusing it, they also know they can go on the donated AL program. The bleeding heart, sounds like social security doesn't it.

[Mike]

I wouldn't consider donating leave - unless the worker was young, early in federal service, and had something terrible happen... i.e. have to work a few shifts with me. :l

[azanon]

BTW, I would have no qualms about calling certain people liars. Getting "sick" every couple of weeks year-round? I don't buy it.

Well, getting sick every couple of weeks is one thing. But just here and there? If that's the best you had, just a feeling they're lying, thenwinning that grievancewould be a walk in the park.

Cheat or get cheated. Fun choice eh?

cowboy wrote: Hopefully they will realize this and change it so we get credit for being good employees. SL abuse is getting worse, and for those that are abusing it, they also know they can go on the donated AL program. The bleeding heart, sounds like social security doesn't it.
Exactly..that's why I mentioned it...it's analogous...

[Wimpy]

Re: Sick Leave Abuse

I look at this way. Everyone has a different pain/sickness threshold. For some the number3 on a scale of 1-10 might be enough to call in sick. Others, might be able to wait until hitting number 8 before calling in. And that threshold could change over the years. Ifone was young and didn't have much sick leave,one might be willing to endure a little more discomfort before making that call. On the other hand, ifone had an abundance of sick leave on the books, they weren't going to get reimbursed for in retirement, they might make the call a little sooner...or a lotsooner.

In any case, pain threshold is personal. No one can judge for the other how much pain or discomfortone shouldendure before making the call. It is up to each of us to manageOURbenefits for our overall comfort and long-termwell being. Given the incentives or lack of incentives under FERS for sick leave reimbursement, it is understandable that people have varied opinions on its proper usage. But those opinions are still personal and they don't apply to anyone other than themselves...in theory and operationally.

The key to narrowing the disparity, operationally speaking, in how sick leave is used is by providing incentives to save it. We can ALL buck up a notch or two on the pain threshold scale if given the right kind of incentive. And those incentives would certainly cost less than what it costs under the current system. Until then...

[Dave M]

Mike, I am surprised to hear you say you would not donate leave. That is not the way Minnesotans behaved toward one another when I lived there.

It is the duty of your supervisor to detect and correct abuse of sick leave. He/she shouldrequire a signed slip from an MD for any leave exceeding 3 days, and can do so forleave of any lengthif abuse is suspected.If he is not doing this, you ought to let him know you intend to contact his superior.

In my office it goes the other way. In order to show their dedication, folks come in and spread their germs all over the place when they clearly should be home getting better. This results in MORE leavebeing used, in the end.

Dave

[fendertweed]

I don't condone sick leave abuse (I'm a middle manager), but OTOH the list of nicks & nickels & dimes taken out of Feds' hides including the FERS sick leave shortchanging convinces me that if one is doing their work conscientiously, it's entirely possible & reasonable to use (need to use) a "mental health" day now & then, perhaps several a year. I and my colleagues are sick & tired of hearing we'll do "more with less" and the fact is we are at the point of doing less with less. And that includes making ourselves sacrificial lambs, even as we do a professional and conscientious job.

I'm kicking in about 20%+ of my gross the max. plus catchup to TSP and several $K elsewhere (no Roth, got capped out of that unfortunately).

Jon

[yakers]

I'm under CSRS and I save about half my sick leave. You never know if you will need it near the end of your career like my boss with heart surgery or others with car accidents. So its good to save up for those possibilities. But now that I have a lot of hours in I use sick leave for doctor or dentist appointments rather than searching out the limited times after work or on weekends.Â*So I guess FERS "abuse" would have to occur near careers end. I would say just use it reasonably. And if you feel sickÂ* at work, well then you could go home. Coworkers may appreciate not getting your germs.Â*

[Dave M]

We earn 4 hours SL per pay period which equates to around 100 hours per year. After 19 years I have over 1600 hours which works out to about 85% of my total accrual.

In five years when I am eligible, I willhave around 2000 hours.Were I in CSRSI would thus have about one year's service time credited for my balance. As I am in FERS I guess I get nothing. (Since service time gets us only 1% per year, crediting us for unused SL would not be all that expensive for Uncle Sam. I bought two years service credit for my military time and it cost me only $600 which is a nice offset for the above.)

Yetitseems prudent to let it accumulate. I can think of lots of things that would require an extensive period of leave. For instance we may take family-leave to care for our aging parents; I believe up to 16 weeks may be authorized.

Here's a story: In the 80's a young female intern withless than one year's service timein our office got into the habit of using SL whenever she felt bloated or had a hangover. Then she wrecked her car and required extensive therapy, had a metal rod in her leg, that sort of stuff. Naturally she wound up on the leave-donation list. I donated her one pay period's worth of AL, 4 hours for me at the time, figuring that if we all did the same, she would get a week's worth out of us at least, our fair share. When shereturned to duty, she told me I was the only one in our office who gave her any leave. I thought this was a disgrace.Yes, I disapproved of her bad habits but at least I still had a little ordinary human compassion and what harm did it do me? None.Today she is a middle-manager and runs the Louisville office I believe.I suppose I could transfer there anytime I wanted, heh.

Dave

[Mike]

There are very few people that I would consider as worthy of receiving donated leave from me.

If you want to know why this is the case, you can PM me for the answer. I won't go into it in an open forum.

[sammyshanker]

According to K. Wayne MacLeod, President of Federal Employees Benefit Group (http://www.febg.com), the Government will be offering thesame sick leave benefit to FERS employees as soon as 2011. He stated that due to the rising cost of FERS employees using their sick leave prior to retirement and the fact that almost all CSRS employees will be retired by 2011 it will cost the Government approximately one (1) billion dollars per month in lost productivity if nothing is done. He added that Congress is already aware of this problem and plans to take action. I just don't know if it is worth giving 2000 hours of sick leave for one percent in additional retirement.

If you are a current Federal Employee and youhave not experienced a FEBG seminar, I would highly recommend it. MacLeod was extremely knowlegable and did not lay on the sales pitch. He focuses on reducing your tax liability in retirement so you can enjoy more to the money you saved. No I willnot be paid for giving FEBG a positive plug here, I just really appreciated thehonest assessmentprovided to me during the seminar I attended in May 2005.

[mlk_man]

Thanks for the info Sammy. And welcome to the board!

M_M

[vic]

The system lends itself to abuse. Every one has an FMLA packet on file. Private industries have the same problems. Isave my sl and hope I never have to use it. It is a good feeling to know if any thing happens I will collect my paycheck for over a year. How much would an insurance policy for that type of coverage cost? SL is there to be used if needed, not to be considered a "I" will loose it when I re tire.

[azanon]

According to K. Wayne MacLeod, President of Federal Employees Benefit Group (http://www.febg.com (http://www.febg.com/)), the Government will be offering thesame sick leave benefit to FERS employees as soon as 2011. He stated that due to the rising cost of FERS employees using their sick leave prior to retirement and the fact that almost all CSRS employees will be retired by 2011 it will cost the Government approximately one (1) billion dollars per month in lost productivity if nothing is done. He added that Congress is already aware of this problem and plans to take action. I just don't know if it is worth giving 2000 hours of sick leave for one percent in additional retirement.

Hmm.. So abusing it is actually helping us move towards this being fixed. I'll be sure and keep that in mind the next time i dont feel like going to work.

My federal employer doesnt want me to cheat them by misusing sick leave, yet they feel perfectly ok punishing me for being healthy.

Call me an optimist, but i'm just not going to need many sick leave hours.

For those that are attempting to try to have insurance for one year via your sick leave, have you guys never heard of disability insurance? They make insurance for that, and there's no need to eat 1500 hours of sick leave when you retire for that purpose. For starters, you get a basic disabilities package just being a federal employee (granted it doesnt take effect until a few years of service; i forgot how many).

[rokid]

In 35 years of service, I've only known one GS-15 or SES that abused sick leave. However, I've known lots of GS-5-13 abusers.Correlation? I think so.

If you want to advance in the federal service, you don't want to make that sick leave calculation.;)

[Mike]

Either that or they're bitter after being repeatedly passed over for promotion...

[rokid]

Mike wrote: Either that or they're bitter after being repeatedly passed over for promotion...


If that's the case, they need to move on. No point in being miserable and frustrated. Good people are hard to find. ;)

[Spaf]

Mike wrote: Either that or they're bitter after being repeatedly passed over for promotion...
Try a hypothetical! A class action law suit of class discrimination [age], under EEOC rulings, against U.S. Department(s).

Shall see! ;) Spaf

[Mike]

By definition, federal employees are too lazy to move anywhere. :P

[rokid]

Boy, that's not my experience! In the DCarea, federal government employees areextremely sharp, entrepreneurial, hard working, and ambitious. I'd picktop government and military personnel over peoplein private sector any day (politicos, especially Republicans,don't count!). Specifically, civil servants couldrun General Motors much better than its current, over payed, moronic, andmyopicmanagement.

Incidentally, I interviewed with General Motors 35 years ago and they didn't hire me. How smart could they be? :D

[Spaf]

rokid,

A while back we had a run in with xxxxxx motor company. We needed a D&B report for our file. The actual D&B was about a dozen pages, however the listing of corporate officers was about 1 1/2 thick, of nothing but VPs. Unbelievable!

Rgds :D Spaf

[rokid]

Spaf,

Top Heavy! Inefficient! Greedy!

I get frustrated with GM because: 1.) I'm from Detroit and grew up and worked in the auto industryduring the glory days - 50s and 60s; 2.) There's no reason why U.S auto manufacturers shouldn't be #1, world-wide - except for mismanagement. Toyota pays the same wages,provides equivalent health care, and builds way better cars than any of the big three. And, they do it with U.S. employees.

GM, Ford, and Chrysler - decades of mismanagement. Now they want a bailout. Who would have bought a Japanese, let alone, a Korean car in the 1960's? I'd still buy a '59 Chevy Impala SS convertible (white with a red interior) over anything Detroit produces today! :D

[Birchtree]

Rokid,

You get a free pass tonight on the Republican comment. But the primary problem with Detroit are their legacy cost structures and the entrenched unions with their inbred inefficiencies. Same problems that plagued the steel industry, autoparts and airlines. And don't you think that government agencies both state and federal will go through their own restructuring? I know I want my defined contribution plan roll over to put me in charge of my own retirement. The sooner the better. Take care.

Dennis - card carrying Republican or should I say born again Republican thanks to Jimmy.

[azanon]

In 35 years of service, I've only known one GS-15 or SES that abused sick leave. However, I've known lots of GS-5-13 abusers.Correlation? I think so.


I know, personally, 4 GS-15's/SESs. I know, ole, about 150 GS-5-13's.

You say you know of more gs-5-13's that abused sick leave than GS-15's/SESs? Well, doh! So do I, rofl. Of course, I realize that maybe i know more gs-5-13's that abused sick leave because...i know more gs-5-13's, lol.

Also, of those 4 GS-15s/SES's i know, all 4 of them are on CSRS. hmm!

[Wimpy]

Yeah, I've never really had a problem with how other people manage their benefits. I've always thought that how someone manages benefits is their business and no one elses. I'm not a supervisor and even if I was I would not be preoccupied with sick leave usage unless someone flat out put their stupid face on and admitted to abusing it.

Like others, I've had my doubts at times about someone's sick leave usage but I never let that doubt turn to envy.Envy, in this instance, is when we expect everyone else to follow the same standard we set for ourselves, but are not quite convinced our standards are practical or fairin thereal world. Miseryoftentimes loves company.

I look at my sick leave balance and get some measure ofsecurity or peace of mind in having what I term a 'reasonable balance'.That number will be different for different people with their unique circumstances. My definition of a 'reasonable balance' is shifting as I grow older.

I know of asupervisorwhoinitiated disciplinary action againstan employee for abusing annual leave and that dip stick supervisor had signed the leave slips. That was good for a laugh or two. Again, envy was the culprit because the individual accused of abusing his annual leave was earning the maximum rate of leave per year while the upstart supversior was getting the minimum. It is amazing sometimes how envy and not minding our own business can distort one's perception of reality.

[rokid]

Birchtree,

Thanks for the pass,but I stand by my analysis of the auto industry (and Republicans:D). Bad management.

I will agree that the UAWbecame too arrogant in the 1970s. However, the pendulum has swung way too far in the other direction.WalMartizing is not good forthe country. If you wanta tiny number of very richand everyone else poor, go to Brazil (or any other 3rd world country).That's real laissez faire.

The UAW gave up wage increases in favor of benefits, i.e. pensions and health care. Now the big three are reneging on thoseagreements. Are bonds and stocks next?

Quote: "As General Motors slashes jobs, closes plants and battles to avoid bankruptcy, the company’s CEO has set up a retirement plan that will pay him at least $4.6 million a year – nearly twice his current salary."

Actually, this is an academic discussion. GM is going down. Their management can't figure it out. Good riddance.

[Mike]

"WalMartizing is not good forthe country."

How do you figure? They provide goods and services at very low cost(which helps offset inflationary pressures.. I thought that was a good thing?)- which is how they've gotten to be such a big company (by beating the crap out of the competition). They provide jobs in areas that might not otherwise have them. People make fun of "Wal-Mart" jobs as if they're bad. I bet the people working those jobs don't necessarily feel that way. I know for a fact my close friend who has worked his way up from sales into management there doesn't feel that way, either. It's funny that someone working for the government would take shots at a successful company. If it wasn't for this company and others like it providing the jobs (and thus the income and the tax revenue), you and I would NOT have jobs in our current capacity.

Give that one some thought.

[SkyPilot]

Annual Leave Abuse? How could that be? Is there even any policy that outlines what "Annual Leave Abuse" could be? Using vacation time by it's nature cannot be abuse, whereby withholding permission by a supervisor must be justified. So, the supervisor who signed the leave slips is truly goofy, as you say!

And in most agencies, "sick leave" is so loosely defined that a supervisor pursues a disciplinary action against an employee at their own peril. And it must be applied uniformly so as not to show favoritism or preferential treatment, thereby eliminating almost any claim of abuse, as application of this rule would prompt so many exceptions as to no longer be viable.

[Wimpy]

Wal-Martization of America is certainly a hot topic of late. Gee, for a company that so many people seem to hate, they ain’t doin’ so bad, are they?

Hey, I’ve certainly had feelings of remorse about some of the smaller stores being pushed out. Small is good. You get to know people on a first name basis and you can find things easier…if they have it[/i]. And, sometimes it is worth paying a little more for something for the perceived value of dealing with people you know on a first name basis, but then again, friendship only goes so far. If the small store doesn’t have what you need or their prices exceed the value of the friendships, personalized service, and the convenience of shopping at the corner…it soon becomes a business decision for consumers to make. And, the consumer has spoken. The consumer wants lower prices and they are willing to sacrifice the homegrown feel of the small community stores for the Wal-Marts that help them stretch their ever shrinking dollar and ever shrinking real wages.

So, if anyone is to blame for the Walmartization of America it is the consumers themselves. But, who can throw rocks at them without chancing a hit from a richochet? Don’t we all shop around for the lowest priced gas? I’ll pay a little more per gallon for the convenience of avoiding long lines, but I have my limits. Voting with our dollars is true democracy in its purest form. Each dollar spent in Wal-Mart or the small store on the corner has a direct economic impact. Forcefully removing Wal-Mart via political law subverts that process and ultimately will lead to less choices and much higher prices…as the U.S.S.R experienced.

I trust that one day Wal-Mart will get a little too big for its britches just like some of the major airlines and Detroit auto makers. Successful companies, with little competition, are tempted to do a little scalping. And when they do, some eager beaver will look at their fat profit margin and say to himself that he can beat them in quality and/or pricing or a combination of the two. And the whole process begins again. Isn’t that how Wal-Mart got started?

Businesses have their lifecycles and to deny these marketplace processes to evolve and come full circle, via collectivist interventionism and political law, isn’t[/i][/b] freedom.

[rokid]

Mike wrote: If it wasn't for this company and others like it providing the jobs (and thus the income and the tax revenue), you and I would NOT have jobs in our current capacity.

Give that one some thought.




Oh, I'm sorry. WalMart is great for the country. Unskilled jobs, low wages, limited or no health care. Might be a great job for a high school/college student or a retiree. However, raise a family on WalMart wages? I don't think so.

Here's an interesting bit of info I found as a result of Googleling for "WalMart federal tax":

Your tax dollars pay for Wal-Mart's greed


The estimated total amount of federal assistance for which Wal-Mart employees were eligible in 2004 was $2.5 billion. [“Harper’s Index,� Harper’s Magazine, Vol. 310, No. 1858, 3/2005]
One 200-employee Wal-Mart store may cost federal taxpayers $420,750 per year. This cost comes from the following, on average:

$36,000 a year for free and reduced lunches for just 50 qualifying Wal-Mart families.
$42,000 a year for low-income housing assistance.
$125,000 a year for federal tax credits and deductions for low-income families.
$100,000 a year for the additional expenses for programs for students.
$108,000 a year for the additional federal health care costs of moving into state children's health insurance programs (S-CHIP)
$9,750 a year for the additional costs for low income energy assistance. [THE HIDDEN PRICE WE ALL PAY FOR WAL-MART, A REPORT BY THE DEMOCRATIC STAFF OF THE COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE, 2/16/04] Is this accurate? I don't know - I'll check it out later. However, if it is true, WalMart is creating a need for government jobs, but not necessarily providing the tax revenue to support them. Did WalMart pay $2.5B in taxes last year?

[Birchtree]

I don't shop at Walmart primarily because the stores and parking lots are always too crowded. I prefer a little serenity when I shop and will pay more for the quietness. It is interesting to note that their employees do have a profit sharing plan as part of their retirement plans. Are you familiar with a company called Cifra? They are located in Mexico and are really growing and happen to be owned by Walmart. When the immigrant workers from Mexico come to Florida to work, guess where they buy their groceries. Walmart has the best Latino grocery selection probably in the world. They are now growing in China - and soon to who knows where else. I like the idea of that profit sharing plan though. We could talk about the reduced or free lucnch program - but it would get messy. Take care

Dennis

[Dave M]

There are people here in Key West thatdrive 300 milesto Miami and back just to go to the WalMart store up there. D

I am in FERS and will be retiring at the end of January. I have around 800 hours of sick leave that I most likely will not use and can not donate to the voluntary leave program. Seems you can only donate annual leave; not sick leave.

I am a GS-14 and it only seems fair to me that I should be able to donate my accumulated sick leave to an individual who needs it. The possibility of my having used that sick leave surely was factored into the annual budget over the years so it seems I am giving that money back to the government instead of going to a worthy person.

Dell

[mlk_man]

I think what they should do is take an average of what all federal workers use each year, and I'm sure they know this, and if one doesn't use that average when they retire, they pay you the difference. Gives incentive to go to work everyday and make doctor's appts. in the evenings or on weekends. :)

[mlk_man]

How about two separate sick leave accounts. One for more long term situations like lenghty illnesses and pregnancies and one for shorter term like Doctor appts? If one doesn't use all their short term hours, they get paid for it when they leave?

The long term account might even be set up as an annual number like 140 hours or whatever with no carry over and is based on age or length of service while the short term account earns less hours per pay period but does carry over?

Just thinking out loud...............

[Birchtree]

The private sector has developed what is known as PTO (paid time off) where all benefits such as vacation and sick leave are in the same account. There is no differentiation between the two, you spend as necessary. And since the hours belong to you they are paid on termination after a certain vesting period that varies with employers. It's a nice benefit that can boost the 401K plan amount. Everybody will soon be an investor - or at least be seeking advice from those that think they know how to invest. Finding a good investment adviser is like trying to find a doctor that works weekends. I'm ready for next week!

[mlk_man]

Sounds good to me, but do they have a maximum carry over limit like we have?

[azanon]

Please stay on topic, those of you. The thread is about "Retirement and Sick Leave". Take the Walmart conversation someplace else.

[Wheels]

Nightmover wrote: Seems you can only donate annual leave; not sick leave.




Is that an agency thing? In the FAA you can donate sick as long as you keep a minimum balance for yourself (I forget the number - 240 maybe)

Dave

<><

Dave: I am having trouble logging in still. I previously posted with the username Nightmover and had to change it to get back in. I am going to go back to lurking rather than posting. To answer your question, I have always felt it had something to do with the fact that I belong to FERS; but if you also belong to FERS I believe it must be an agency thing with my agency.

Dell